Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Duckwing6 on February 16, 2000, 04:06:00 AM
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I'm asking for some advise of the more competent guys around here regarding the optimal AH Pc.. i've had massive dump problem since the last patch and i suspect it's my graphic card (i''ve seen this kind of behavior before when it's chip overheated....)
Now i'm stuck currently with a socket 7 AMD K6 333 (overclocked to 350 because iff i do more the graphic card overheats), and a Creative labs Banshee card. All the rest in the puter i consider ok.
Now my question:
What would you guys buy .. and i don't mean a Athlon 1.1Ghz or so because that's somewhat out of my budget .. but a suggestion for a new Motherboard and CPU at reasonable price that allows more than the 17FPS max FR i'm seeing withj this AMD chip..
Thanks in advance!
(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Celeron 566Mhz, Based on an 810E Motherboard will get you quite a nice way for a decent price...
Also, look for a DDR version of a Getforce Video card...
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Saw/Saintaw
BISHOP'S FINEST FLYING BRICK
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saw.gif)
GMT TOD page is: http://www.wardogs.org/ah/ (http://www.wardogs.org/ah/)
186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 02-16-2000).]
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Hi DW6,
like Saintaw said, get a fast Celeron or a PIII. I recommend the good ole BX-Chipset.
What kind of Graphics-Adapter do u use?
Maik
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AMD is gotta be the worse processor for gaming, even though its hyped like it runs fast. The new athlons run fast, very fast but the ol k6s just cant cut it.
Celeron all the way..I like the abit boards myself, but asus makes a good one as well.
They are cheap, and run 50 fps or so at 1024x768 with a g-force card. I disagree with getting the ddr version tho..unless you got a real fast cpu you gain no speed.
In my celron 450, i gained less than 1 fps on benchmarks usin the ddr card verses a regular gforce.
On my atlhon 600 its a bit more..like 6fps ..but in aces high at 1200x1600 i get 50-60..no more..no less using either card.
If the gforce is outta your price range, get a good ol TNT2 card. Leave the voodoos alone.
Keep in mind I work for 3dfx..and even so..much prefer Nvidias products..i have tested video cards extensively both at work, and at home..nothing comes close to the gforce..yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I even have an old celeron 300a overclocked to 450 and an abit bh-6 motherboard gathering dust..if you are interested in it let me know..I could part with the cpu and the board for $100 bucks without ram.
got my atlhon for christmas and since then its just sittin there in its little box.
Good luck whatever you decide to do..
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Greetings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Had the AMD K6-2 450 meself and got a whopping 24fps, even though I had a 32meg vid card (TNT2).
HTC simply will not support AMD, so..........
I bought a Celeron 500mhz and an ASUS jumperless MB along with the Viper 770 32meg Video Card I already was using...the result...average fps is now 50.
MB.....140.00
Celeron 500mhz.....112.00
I would suggest a better video card...Gforce is what most consider the best...around 210.00 from what I've seen.
Hope this helps you out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude...........Out!
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Or....
Xeon III 550Mhz, 2 MB cache X 4 on a SC450NX...willcost you only about 12.000 US$ witthout the memory...but I guarantee good performance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seriously, I'd recommend waiting a bit, then go on an 820i based Motherboard. It should then support AGP4X (1GB/s) and the Bus has a different architecture...the PCI bridge is now placed at the end of the BUS, ie doesn't clog the Video anymore...
There are still some issues with the existing MB's today, but should be solved soon...
One last thing, If you have enough Dosh to buy a Pentium instead of a Celeron, go for a Copermine Model, and preferably a FCPPGA, not a slot 1.
256K Cache VS 512, but , it's true speed...
BUS is at 133MhZ Vs 100Mhz...
IA is supported by AH, as opposed as AMD...
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Saw/Saintaw
BISHOP'S FINEST FLYING BRICK
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saw.gif)
186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 02-16-2000).]
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Gota go with Rude here. All the post contained good advice. I have a Celery 400 o/ced to 450, but I would love a celeron 500, with about 128M RAM and a Viper 770. Also with that new jumperless ASUS board. I have a ASUS P2B and no problems at all!
Friend of mine has a Pentium III 500 MHz and got great FPS with it!
Rude have you tried Overclocking that beast??? I heard the higher celerons are more difficult to O/C.
Duck! I don't know what you're running for a monitor, but a 19" is wonderful. Alot of good 19" monitors out there for great prices.
Remember Duck It is all what ya pay for.
Start asking around what is the best and what people are have luck with. All the people together that fly here, are like a walking consumers report for computer components. Tap into what they know.
Check Price Watch for computers and computer component prices. There is a web site called PC Hardware Review. People write up reviews on computer hardware. Good site!
Well Duck, Good Luck!!
Keep us informed!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
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I'd definately go for this:
Abit BE6 v2
Celeron 466 or better
You will also need a slot adapter for the cpu.
I also recommend updating your graphics card to AGP:
If you don't need Glide: GeForce 32MB
If you need Glide: Voodoo3 3000 16MB
Camo
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First I would like to know your budget??
But ill break it down for you, as of current the best deal for the money is a celron processor.
you could get a celron 500 with a nice Abit board(jumperless of course) with 128 megs of ram for under 400.00 dollars US. (the ram costs the most)
Right now im running 300a celron running at 450, with a venerable voodoo2 card.. I cranks at 800 x 600 about 40-50 frames except on take offs with about 25-30...
No as far as graphics cards I disagree with buying the gforce.. its too damn expensive..
you can get a voodoo3 2000 for 80 dollars US
Triangle fill rates (good way to tell how fast card is with one rating; note at various resolutions certain cards out proform eachother.)
Voodoo banshee - 2 million Tri/sec
Voodoo 2 - 3 million
voodoo3 2000 - 6 million
voodoo3 3500 - 7-8 million
Geoforce - 15 million
New savage card from diamond - ??? competes with geoforce at lower resolutions. (good ratings from www.firingsquad.com) (http://www.firingsquad.com))
Now note that graphics cards still need a fast cpu with the exception of the geoforce which is a GPU(it offloads processor and does the goemetry itself) What do I consider a fast cpu? anything over 500mhz using x86 instructions is fast. G4 for mac or any athlon system is really fast but thats cisc, and risc and another can of worms to explain.
now the industry is hyping 800mhz 1000mhz cpu's but what programers so far have taken advantage of these new technologies on a home PC level...None that I know off... (If your running Citrix winframe/metaframe that may be different) Quake3 is the most intensive graphic engine on the market(Unreal is up there too)... With my current setup I play Quake 3 with no problems at over 40 frames a sec... My bottle neck is my graphics card(voodoo2) but i'll wait till voodoo3's or the next best thing comes out for cheap.
As far as upgrading I never buy the newest stuff on the market its just not cost effective to be outdated by hawdware in 6 months when the software is lagging behind...
I make my decisions on the current level of applications on the software market.. the computer industry is a big catch 22...And right now the most games dont require 800mhz or higher coupled with a geoforce.
my 2 cents,
DoctorYO
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The GeForce is going to be triple the price of the V3. The V3 2000 or a TNT2 will be the best value for this type of gaming. I use the V3 2000 and it performs very well in every game I've got.
A good Abit mainboard like the BE6 is a good choice. Check it out at http://www.bxboards.com/mainboard/slot1/be6-ii.shtml (http://www.bxboards.com/mainboard/slot1/be6-ii.shtml) . This board also had an ATA66 HD controller in addition to the norman ATA33 one.
Get the fastest celeron you can afford. If you want to over-clock, find yourself a 366 celeron someplace, or a 400 if you can't get a 366. My 366 runs at 500 no problems with the retail heat-sink.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Duckwing
I have a 366(458) celeron and an old TNT1 card 64megs of ram and a Sound Blaster Live card. FPS are 40-50 in 32 bit colour. The only part of the system I bought for Aces High is the SBLive. That is because it works real well with RW in duplex. The only reason I would get more video card for AH was if I had the monitor to suport more than 1024 and still be clear. I guess that I am saying that other then staying a way from the K6 generation of AMD processors, you cant go too far wrong. AH is not a horribly power hungry app the way it is now written, my computer is mediocre and plays it just fine.
Go to gamespc.com and you can defitly build the "ulitmate" if you would rather, but AH wont know the difference I think.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Duck, I'd stay away from the AMD chips if your machine is mainly for gameing.
I agree with most of what everyone has said here....
Stick to the Celeron if your on a budget and a TNT 2 32meg card is a great card (I own 2 of them and a GeForce DDR).
If you have the money get the GeForce 256 DDR version... NOT the SDR. I had to look around for the DDR but I finally found it.
DDR version is pricey, around $300 but it's the fastest gameing video card I've ever seen.
If you're on a budget and need some cheaper video cards I have 2 of the Diamond Monster II's 12megs each, just sitting around my place. I was running them in my second gaming machine... performance was decent and support high enough reso but only 16bit color. Once I had my TNT2's I had a hard time playing in 16bit color!.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Granger:
Keep in mind I work for 3dfx..and even so..much prefer Nvidias products..i have tested video cards extensively both at work, and at home..nothing comes close to the gforce..yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I didn't know 3dfx had a place here in the Dallas area... Did 3dfx keep the STB office open up in Plano? I used to live really close to it some years ago.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Swager...
I haven't tried to overclock yet, 50 fps is plenty good, although more horsepower is always a good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I though it would help me kill someone, I would do it in a New York Minute (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Rude
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Actually if you want the most bang for your buck (ie Overclocking), skip the Celeron 450-500's, since its at the end of its product life, and you can't squeeze much more out of it than its rated speed.
Right now the hot overclocking processor/motherboard is the new coppermine chips. The PIII-550E Coppermine processor, paired with a Tyan Trinity 400 motherboard. Basically it is like the early Celeron's, in that it is a capable processor as fast as the highest PIII's out there, marketed down (ie marketing gimmic) to a 100Mhz FSB.
Basically, put it in the new VIA 133A chipset motherboards at 133Mhz FSB, and VIOLA!! you now have a PIII running at
825 Mhz, with the stock cooling fan.
Pair that with a Guillemont 3D Prophet SDR Ge-Force Video Card at $167 off of http://www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com) and you have a system that will compete with the best, but still be economical.
PIII-550E is $260-270
Tyan Trinity 400 Motherboard is $82
Guillemont 3D Prophet SDR Gforce is $167
Total Upgrade Cost of $510 plus shipping and handling, and you will have a machine running in the 800Mhz range, with a G-Force Video card.
IMO this is the peak of the price/performance ratio, and I am currently looking to purchase this myself.
The Celeron stuff at around 500Mhz, is just a minimal upgrade. If you go this route, you will be looking to upgrade again in about a year.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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IBM, baby Blue, 2 gig of RAM. Need I say more?
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
"In training, upon being told it was time to
solo, the instructor said, “You tried to kill
me enough times, now try it with a check pilot.”"
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Thanks for the great advise guys!
To summ it up:
INTEL Celeron 466MHz 120USD
ASUS P3B-F, BX-Chipset,6 PCI, ATX 180USD
3DFX Voodoo3 3000,TV+SVHS-Out,166MHz 16MB 180USD
480 USD total here in Austria ...
any tips where i can buy this on the net a bit cheaper ?
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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Ummmmm... Duck make sure you read my post before you buy anything.
For an additional $30 you can get a system with a 825Mhz overclock capable PIII, and a SDR Ge-Force Card. Basically a much faster system than you spec'd out above.
To find the best prices on the net, go to http://www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com)
For great technical articles, overclocking advice, and how too's such as overclocking the PIII550E that I am suggesting, these 3 sites are outstanding.
Toms Hardware: http://www7.tomshardware.com/ (http://www7.tomshardware.com/)
AnandTech: http://www.anandtech.com/ (http://www.anandtech.com/)
Sharky'sExtreme: http://sharkyextreme.com/ (http://sharkyextreme.com/)
Good Luck ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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looked at pricewatch .. but the problem is none of their retailers seem to ship international.. i'm in Austria :-/
and a P550 is about 500$ (!!!) alone here
anybody know some retailer who ships international (looked at amazon but they don't have components like CPU's and MB's)
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Does buy.com send overseas???
Damn Verm!! Ya got my mouth watering now!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 02-16-2000).]
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and so is mine Swager ... at least buy.com doesn't explicitely state that they don't ship outside the US .. but they don't have the P3 Chip dang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Next (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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One note of caution with BuyComp.com.
They charge me stats tax when my state is specifically internet sales tax free.
And they will have higher shipping and "handling" charges than most which I think is how they pad thier price and actually increase thier profit.
-Westy
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Duckwing find a squaddie in the US to order it for you, send him a money order, then have him ship it UPS or FedEx to Europe for you.
I am not sure of all the details, but I do know several people who have done similar things.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Duck,
Checkout www.mwave.com (http://www.mwave.com)
I bought a custom box 4 months ago with,
Enlight case
c466
Abit bm6
8.4 gig drive
64megs PC100
DVD
V770 32meg
MX300
nonwin modem
Win 98se
Built and tested
Total 940.00
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Yes, my AMD k6-2 450 gets me 25 to 30fps. I want more of course, but i'm still happy. What i'd like to know is how difficult is it to change out the motherboard? If i bought a pIII on a new motherboard, will all the hardware be compatible? How difficult will it be to get everything setup etc. I have no experience with this.
Daniko
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Ok folks thanks for the great advice!
Anyway i'm going to blow all of them into the wind now and stomp out to by a (-> 35 dumps after 15 minutes climb later ....)
Cleleron 466
Gigabyte MB (dang need new case due to ATX format .. no austrian dealer has AT format anymore (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif))
and a Vodoo³ 2000
i know i should have waited longer and get a more decent system from the states but i've just had it with my old system ..
Thanks again ..
Cyas UP there (as soon as i have the new puter UP and running)
(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 02-17-2000).]
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Noooo.. don't get a Gigabit mobo...
Get an Abit with built in ATA66 for faster HD work and much better overclock-ability.
Also, if you can find a 366 or 400 Celeron, it will clock to just as fast, or faster than the 466 Celery will on a good board like the abit...
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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ok how about an EPoX Mb ? (That's what i got now ..) it's slot1 so when i can afford a Pentium i can go for that one .. and you can go up to 133Mhz FSB
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I'd go with an abit or a Soyo board personally, but that's mainly because I'm an over-clocker.
I don't reccomend you worry about getting a board what will theoretically support a P3 slot1 for a couple of reasons. First, by the time you are ready to upgrade again you will need a new mobo to support new features such as DDR RAM, AGP4X, ATA66/100 etc. Second, the coppermines aren't going to be produced much in slot1, and I doubt you'll see it used much in the future for consumer level chips.
What type of CPU connection is in the mobo you have? What front-side bus speeds will it support? If you are going to buy a new mobo though, get an Abit. It will overclock a Celeron with very good granular control, and has all the other bits like ATA66 controllers.
If you aren't into the over-clocking thing though, just get a fast Celery and whatever mobo your supplier wants to slap it on. Usually the price difference between a good mobo and a not-so-good one is very low though, so I usually get a good one. Your mobo is by far the most complex and succeptible piece of hardware in a computer, so it always pays to buy a quality one. IMHO
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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I too have a AMD K6-2 450mhz cpu with a Voodoo3 3000. I get dumped sometimes after 1 minute up to 1 hour and 50 mins. What causes this? Before the last patch I very rarely got dumped or had screen freezes. Now it's not too much fun .....with the problems. Great thread to all, as I too want to get out of the AMD cpu and was wondering what to get......I hope my wife wants this computer for email....lol
Thorns_Musketeer
CO Musketeer Escadrille
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Duck,
I see everyone dissin the AMD K6, saying they dont cut the mustard.
This aint true. The K6-2 is not the best by a long shot, celery does outperform it.
However the K6-3 will slaughter a celery and give a Pentium III a run for its muney, espc since its cheaper. Furthermore the K6-3 sits in a Super-Socket 7 board which DOES come in AT form factor.
The K6-3 comes in 400 and 450 only (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) - it got superceded by the K7 (ALLRIGHTY!!!!) but you can over clock to hell and back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) try getting a k6-3/450 and clocking it to 550 (depending on what board you have).
It will murder a celery and be about 1/3 as cheap. and you wont have to buy a new case either.
Dont anyone even try to diss the Athlon - it'll kills even the fastest coppermine and has a faster FSB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Long live AMD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for video cards - TNT-2 Ultra is the only way to spell video card. Ge-Force Pro if ya got the cash (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Overlord Spatula,
1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group
"... 10 Me-109s out of the sun..." Aces High, Iron Maiden.
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Mox,
When 3dfx bougt out STB, they kept the old crew here in plano. You can drive by and see the ol 3dfx flag proudly flying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We are mainly here for tech support, as the old 3dfx had none.
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Originally posted by Duckwing6:
I'm asking for some advise of the more competent guys around here regarding the optimal AH Pc......)
Thanks in advance!
(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Here we go again... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif) :P
Rockett helped me out immensely when few others could. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I'd heed his advice personally.
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O.E. 'Tern' Dillon
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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Lepth:
The board i got supports all you described .. BUT
IT DIN'T WORK! !! DIDN'T DIDN'T DiN'T WORK DiDn'T DinDiT'T Diiidddn'T
I HATE COmPUTERS !!
-> Duckwing6 After nervous breakdown ..
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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Uh, sorry Duckwing, I'm not exactly clear on the issue here. Give me more details, what board exactly are you using and for what chip. What FSB speeds does it support ect. I'm sure I can help if you give me the details.
Thorns, describe what you mean by "dumps". Are you getting an application crash to desktop, or are you talking about Host Connection Lost? I suspect you are talking about a crash to desktop, in which case the culprit is very likely heat. My V3 heats up easily, especially if overclocked, so I slapped an old 486 heatsink and fan on it with a couple fo zipties. For now, try taking the cover off of your computer and see if that helps.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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It's working now ...
The Celeron Chip was dead out of the box .. (go figure ...)
now i got a Celeron 466 on an EpoX 6VBA MB ... and i got a Voodoo³ 3000
The performance is ok.. i'm seeing now a solid 20FPS on the runway with ground clutter ON ... (used to see 8-11 with clutter OFF)
good thing is that this MB will allow me to upgrade to a fast Pentium as soon as they have reached reasonable prices...
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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Yep, it's rare, but those things do happen still Duckwing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Glad to see you are up and running. I'm sure your in-flight framerates will be very nice with that kind of runway framerate. I always find the framerate is low at the start, and picks up after 30 seconds or so, even if I don't move. Once I'm in flight, I pick up another 10-15 fps easily.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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somthin is wrong if that is all your gettin duck i have a celery 366 and voodoo2000 pci and i get better (64 meg ram at 66 mhz bus)fps with no overclockin of cpu. but voodoo is runnin at 180 mhz no prob with a fan
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hmmm.. TOWD dunno whhat you mean .. how can i change the clocking of the Graphic card without overclocking the MB ?
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You know Thorns posted earlier that he was having the lock-ups .. well, he has since then blown away all his AH stuff and downloaded and freshly installed and has had NO lock-ups since. Might want to give it a try!
-sn1p3r
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Duckwing6, try a little utility called "powerstrip" for overclocking your video card (the warnings u could toast ur card are no joke tho) I have a GeForce 256 DDR card running at 135/330mhz which is just a tad over the 120/300 stock settings but I get in the mid 50s straight ahead and around in the 90fps when looking up.
JimBear
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Sn1p3r: The problem with dumps to desktop where with my videocard .. since i upgraded to the new card i had no dumps/lockups whatsoever.. maybe a fan would have been enough to keep me from locking up but i needed more FPS anyways .. 8 FPS near an airfield just hurt your aim too bad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
cc Jimbear... could you put a link up for this one?
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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)