Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Changeup on January 26, 2011, 02:51:05 PM
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This is amazing. Notice that 14,000 aircraft were lost in the US ? That is one third of the airplanes lost outside of the US . And how about the most produced aircraft - the first two are Soviet aircraft with their country invaded and fighting for their lives.
Most Americans who were not adults during WWII have no understanding of the magnitude of it. This listing of some of the aircraft facts gives a bit of insight to it. 276,000 aircraft manufactured in theUS. 43,000 planes lost overseas, including 23,000 in combat. 14,000 lost in the continental US. The US civilian population maintained a dedicated effort for four years, many working long hours seven days per week and often also volunteering for other work. WWII was the largest human effort in history.
Statistics from Flight Journal magazine.
THE COST of DOING BUSINESS ---- The staggering cost of war.
THE PRICE OF VICTORY
B-17 $204,370. P-40 $44,892.
B-24 $215,516. P-47 $85,578.
B-25 $142,194. P-51 $51,572.
B-26 $192,426. C-47 $88,574.
B-29 $605,360. PT-17 $15,052.
P-38 $97,147. AT-6 $22,952.
ON AVERAGE
6600 American service men died per MONTH, during WWII (about 220 a day).
PLANES A DAY WORLDWIDE
From Germany 's invasion of Poland Sept. 1, 1939 and ending with
Japan 's surrender Sept. 2, 1945 --- 2,433 days.
From 1942 onward, America averaged 170 planes lost a day.
Nation Aircraft Average
USA 276,400 113
S Union 137,200 56
G Britain 108,500 45
Germany 109,000 45
Japan 76,300 31
How Many is a 1,000 planes?
B-17 production (12,731) wingtip to wingtip would extend 250 miles.
1,000 B-17s carried 2.5 million gallons of high octane fuel.
Lifting 10,000 airmen to deliver 2,000 tons of bombs.
THE NUMBERS GAME
9.7 billion gallons of gasoline consumed, 1942-1945.
107.8 million hours flown, 1943-1945.
459.7 billion rounds of aircraft ammo fired overseas, 1942-1945.
7.9 million bombs dropped overseas, 1943-1945.
2.3 million combat sorties, 1941-1945 (one sortie = one takeoff).
299,230 aircraft accepted, 1940-1945.
808,471 aircraft engines accepted, 1940-1945.
799,972 propellers accepted, 1940-1945.
WWII MOST-PRODUCED COMBAT AIRCRAFT
II-2 Stumovik 36,183
Yak 1, 3, 7, 9 31,000+
Bf 109 30,480
Fw 190 29,001
Spitfire/Seafire 20,351
B-24/PB4Y 18,482
Thunderbolt 15,686
Mustang 15,875
Ju 88 15,000
Hurricane 14,533
P-40 13,738
B-17 12,731
Corsair 12,571
Hellcat 12,275
Pe-2 11,400
P-38 10,037
Zero 10,449
B-25 9,984
LaGG-5 9,920
Avenger 9,837
P-39 9,584
Oscar 5,919
Mosquito 7,780
Lancaster 7,377
He 111 6,508
Halifax 6,176
Bf 110 6,150
LaGG-7 5,753
B-29 3,970
Stirling 2,383
Sources:
Rene Francillon, Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific war; Cajus Bekker,
The Luftwaffe Diaries; Ray Wagner, American Combat Planes; Wikipedia.
BALL PARK AVERAGE:
Chief of Staff to General, “Hmmm; 331 men killed and 308 aircraft
destroyed. That’s 11 people and 10 planes per day.”
“Uh, yes, sir. It's still the ballpark average.”
"I’d like to see an improvement in bomber losses, those really add up."
“Were working on it, General. But it's sad to think that 10 young men
alive today will be dead tomorrow.”
“You know that’s the price of doing business. Now then, what about
the overseas and combat losses?”
According to the AAF Statistical Digest, in less than four years
(December 1941- August 1945), the US Army Air Forces lost 14,903
pilots, aircrew and assorted personnel plus 13,873 airplanes ---
inside the continental United States . They were the result of 52,651
aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.
Think about those numbers. They average 1,170 aircraft accidents per
month---- nearly 40 a day. (Less than one accident in four resulted
in totaled aircraft, however.)
Those colossal losses cost the Axis powers nothing; not as much as
one 7.7 mm bullet.
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It gets worse.....
Almost 1,000 Army planes disappeared en route from the US to foreign
climes. But an eye-watering 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas
including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 against the Western Axis)
and 20,633 attributed to non-combat causes overseas.
In August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down among 376 losses. That was a
16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England . In 1942-43
it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete a
25-mission tour in Europe .
Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to
smaller forces committed. The worst B-29 mission, against Tokyo on
May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortress, 5.6 percent of the 464
dispatched from the Marianas .
On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII,
about 220 a day. By the end of the war, over 40,000 airmen were
killed in combat theatres and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000
missing men were declared dead, including a number “liberated” by the
Soviets but never returned. More than 41,000 were captured, half of
the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with
one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were pegged at
121,867.
US manpower made up the deficit. The AAF’s peak strength was reached
in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year's
figure.
The losses were huge---but so were production totals. From 1941
through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military
aircraft. That number was enough not only for US Army, Navy and
Marine Corps, but for allies as diverse as Britain , Australia , China
and Russia . In fact, from 1943 onward, America produced more planes
than Britain and Russia combined. And more than Germany and Japan
together 1941-45.
However, our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the
Luftwaffe sustained uncontrolled hemorrhaging, reaching 25 percent of
aircrews and 40 planes a month. And in late 1944 into 1945, nearly
half the pilots in Japanese squadrons had flown fewer than 200 hours.
The disparity of two years before had been completely reversed.
Experience Level:
Uncle Sam sent many of his sons to war with absolute minimums of
training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than
one hour in their assigned aircraft.
The 357th Fighter Group (often known as The Yoxford Boys) went to
England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s. The group never saw a
Mustang until shortly before its first combat mission. A high-time
P-51 pilot had 30 hours in type. Many had fewer than five hours. Some
had one hour.
With arrival of new aircraft, many combat units transitioned in
combat. The attitude was, “They all have a stick and a throttle. Go
fly `em.” When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to
P-51s in February 1944, there was no time to stand down for an
orderly transition. The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said,
“You can learn to fly `51s on the way to the target. (Note: Gone West
HNL QB Brewster Morgan (Morgan's Corner up in Nuuanu off of Old Pali
Road), a Honolulu boy and a member of the 4th Fighter Group, told me
that they actually did stand down one day to transition from the P47
to the P51. They were pissed that the old groups still had the P47
[Brewster was with the Eagle Squadron in the Spitfire......later in
the P47 when the US got into it in '42] and the newer groups coming
over from the US all had P-51s. Blakeslee finally convinced AF to let
them convert by standing down just one day. An interesting side
note........Brewster was shot down over France in '44 and became a
POW.......his roommate?.......Douglas Bader.......top English ace with
two wooden legs...Bader lost one of his legs when he bailed out and
was captured.......the Germans asked the Brits to send him another
leg......which they did....BD).
A future P-47 ace said, “I was sent to England to die.” He was not
alone. Some fighter pilots tucked their wheels in the well on their
first combat mission with one previous flight in the aircraft.
Meanwhile, many bomber crews were still learning their trade: of
Jimmy Doolittle’s 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five
had won their wings before 1941. All but one of the 16 copilots were
less than a year out of flight school.
In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF’s worst
accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a
staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours. Next worst were
the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were
Allison powered.
Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24
averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours,
respectively----a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000
the Air Force’s major mishap rate was less than 2.
The B-29 was even worse at 40; the world's most sophisticated, most
capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to stand
down for mere safety reasons. The AAF set a reasonably high standard
for B-29 pilots, but the desired figures were seldom attained. The
original cadre of the 58th Bomb Wing was to have 400 hours of
multi-engine time, but there were not enough experienced pilots to
meet the criterion. Only ten percent had overseas experience.
Conversely, when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force
initiated a two-month “safety pause” rather than declare a “stand
down”, let alone grounding.
The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Though the R3350 was known as
a complicated, troublesome power-plant, no more than half the
mechanics had previous experience with the Duplex Cyclone. But they
made it work.
Navigators:
Perhaps the greatest unsung success story of AAF training was
Navigators. The Army graduated some 50,000 during the War. And many
had never flown out of sight of land before leaving “Uncle Sugar” for
a war zone. Yet the huge majority found their way across oceans and
continents without getting lost or running out of fuel --- a stirring
tribute to the AAF’s educational establishments.
Cadet To Colonel:
It was possible for a flying cadet at the time of Pearl Harbor to
finish the war with eagles on his shoulders. That was the record of
John D. Landers, a 21-year-old Texan, who was commissioned a second
lieutenant on December 12, 1941. He joined his combat squadron with
209 hours total flight time, including 2 ½ in P-40s. He finished the
war as a full colonel, commanding an 8th Air Force Group --- at age
24.
As the training pipeline filled up, however those low figures became
exceptions. By early 1944, the average AAF fighter pilot entering
combat had logged at least 450 hours, usually including 250 hours in
training. At the same time, many captains and first lieutenants
claimed over 600 hours.
FACT:
At its height in mid-1944, the Army Air Forces had 2.6 million people
and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types. Today the US Air Force
employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+
manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft. The 2009 figures represent
about 12 percent of the manpower and 7 percent of the airplanes of
the WWII peak.
IN SUMMATION:
Whether there will ever be another air war is doubtful, as fighters
and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled
drones over Afghanistan and Iraq . But within living memory, men left
the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five
miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless.
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:salute awesome, just awesome :salute
JUGgler
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Lets just hope than in our life times, humanity can keep itself under control and not get into these atrocious messes.
Our little cartoon sandbox is fun, but we are talking about over 22 million people who died... mothers loosing their sons, children loosing their fathers, and countless millions of families who had nothing to do with the war other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, being destroyed.
:salute all those on all sides who paid the ultimate sacrifice.
:pray for all the families who have been torn and destroyed by the conflict.
<middle finger emoticon> to all the megalomaniacs around the world who have led our species to such suffering.
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:salute :pray
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Lets just hope than in our life times, humanity can keep itself under control and not get into these atrocious messes.
Our little cartoon sandbox is fun, but we are talking about over 22 million people who died... mothers loosing their sons, children loosing their fathers, and countless millions of families who had nothing to do with the war other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, being destroyed.
:salute all those on all sides who paid the ultimate sacrifice.
:pray for all the families who have been torn and destroyed by the conflict.
<middle finger emoticon> to all the megalomaniacs around the world who have led our species to such suffering.
couldn't of said it any better myself, all points included.
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Well put, Ardy. Hard to envision the scale it happened on, isn't it?
:salute To all who served and were affected.
Wiley.
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It is true that the urgencies of war inspires invention, however, if we were to focus our efforts instead to , as an example , space travel and extra-terrestial colonization, my grandson might have been born on mars.
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What do they mean by this?
299,230 aircraft accepted, 1940-1945.
808,471 aircraft engines accepted, 1940-1945.
799,972 propellers accepted, 1940-1945.
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Thanks for those, Changeup!
And <S> Ardy.
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What do they mean by this?
299,230 aircraft accepted, 1940-1945.
808,471 aircraft engines accepted, 1940-1945.
799,972 propellers accepted, 1940-1945.
It's how many the government took delivery of from the company that manufactured it. Not all manufactured were accepted, for a variety of reasons, e.g. quality or performance not meeting the spec, no longer needed, company test product (destructible or non-destructible testing), political reasons, etc.
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database burp
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The loss of life is staggering...visions of Saving Private Ryan become a moral imperative for families. 7.9 MILLION BOMBS dropped in 2 years in both theaters...the destruction is inconceivable.
Say there were ET's watching us from 1939 to 1955...boy we humans brought new meaning to the words:
Dweeb, scorepotato, noob (to the universe), picker, etc, etc etc.
For those who have family that served (me...very, very proud) it is up to us to record what they experienced and personally hand that information to our kids...whatever their age. I am lucky. Both of my grandfathers have been interviewed, one of them tirelessly, over the years and my Dad kept all of the stuff. My son and daughter owe them...as do I. There is no substitute for the motivation of a debt for those with moral responsibility. 900 of these men and women are dying per day (VA census statistics) and when they are gone, they cannot come back.
I love this game because I wish I was as good a man as my Grandpa F (Luke Field Instructor Pilot in the P-40 series - 1942 and 51 Bravo driver 43-44) and my Grandpa S (B-25 driver - Pacific Island Hop, 1942-43, 44-45 B-25H) and every now and then in this ridiculous little game, HTC gives me a tiny glimpse of what it might have been like...adrenaline, sweat, and a victory....or mostly, a defeat.
One stat I found later for you Lusche kinda-guys....131 German pilots were shot down more than 5 times!!!...don't try that at home guys...or I guess you can here.
:salute
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It's how many the government took delivery of from the company that manufactured it. Not all manufactured were accepted, for a variety of reasons, e.g. quality or performance not meeting the spec, no longer needed, company test product (destructible or non-destructible testing), political reasons, etc.
Interesting, thanks.
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1 number don't add up. Everything i have read on the subject says the 109 is the most massively produced fighter in history with over 35,000 made. You state 30,000. Now are only counting how many saw combat or were shot down? I will have to read up on the others but i'm farely sure there were more 109s then yaks or il2's
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i stand corrected. The war years your numbers are right. 35,000 109's were made from 35 onward
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What is so far for we moderns to appreciate is just how much WW2 depended on attrition. Think about these numbers - hundreds of thousands of aircraft produced, tens of thousands lost.
The winners were simply the ones who lasted longest. This kind of bloodshed is inconceivable for most 21st century westerners, who are shocked at the idea that 2000 people died in the World Trade Center.
On the other hand, world war two averaged almost 11,000 MILITARY DEATHS ONLY, every day, day after day, for 6 years straight.
Chew on that
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1 number don't add up. Everything i have read on the subject says the 109 is the most massively produced fighter in history with over 35,000 made. You state 30,000. Now are only counting how many saw combat or were shot down? I will have to read up on the others but i'm farely sure there were more 109s then yaks or il2's
Changeup is not stating the numbers, so let's not challenge him to justify them. He cited the source of the information. :aok