Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: oakranger on February 05, 2011, 07:06:31 PM
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OK, who can name the specific 190 and what so special about it?
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/Fw190A-3U7WNr531Seitenansicht.jpg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/Fw190A-3-00.jpg)
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?? Fw-190 A-5/U3 tropicalized ??
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FW 190A-3/U7, a 1942 experimental high altitude fighter. This is wnr 130531, one of only three built (others were -528 and -530)
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I take it , that its running 2 superchargers from the intakes?
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I take it , that its running 2 superchargers from the intakes?
Indeed it is.
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FW 190A-3/U7, a 1942 experimental high altitude fighter. This is wnr 130531, one of only three built (others were -528 and -530)
Lusche nail it. WTG sir. :salute
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Indeed it is.
Can you back that up?
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From what I have read (or at least what I can recall), the intakes were used to create forced induction, thus boosting hight altitude performance, as well as improving the flow of cool air around the engine (IIRC, the early 190's had issues with overheating)
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The Focke-Wulf FW 190 A-3/U7 with Jagdgeschwader 2
By Andrew Arthy
Before moving on, mention must be made of a special FW 190 variant that served with Jagdgeschwader 2. The Geschwaderstab and 1943 incarnation of the 10. Staffel of Jagdgeschwader 2 were two of very few Luftwaffe units that operated a special variant of the FW 190: the Focke-Wulf FW 190 A-3/U7 ‘Höhenjäger’ (high-altitude fighter). A special 11.(Höhe) Staffel had been formed in … 1942 for high-altitude operations, but it had been equipped with special versions of the Bf 109.
At the end of September 1942 three so-called “Höhenjägern”, designated FW 190 A-3/U7, were built. They were:
FW 190 A-3/U7 W.Nr 528 DJ + AB
FW 190 A-3/U7 W.Nr 531 DJ + AE
FW 190 A-3/U7 W.Nr 532 DJ + AF
These were from the Focke-Wulf factory at Marienburg, so the full Werk Nummern would have been 0130 528, 0130 531 and 0130 532.
These aircraft were lightened in a number of ways. some of the armour from the cabin area was removed, namely the pilot back and head armour. The variant did not have self-sealing fuel tanks. The fuselage MG 17s were removed, as was the FuG 25. New air intakes were used.
These weight reductions meant that the FW 190 A-3/U7 weighed 3,660 kg, compared to the 3,850 kg weight of a regular FW 190 A-3. The wing area was meant to be increased from 18.3 m² to 20.3 m², and the wing span was meant to be increased from 10.5 m to 12.5 m, although whether these changes in dimensions actually occurred is not known.
The changes had an effect on aircraft performance. There was a decrease in turn radius from 1,450 m at 10,000 m for the FW 190 A-3 to 1,250 m at the same altitude for the A-3/U7. The FW 190 A-3/U7 had an initial climb rate of 18 m/s, a ceiling of 11,900 m, and a top speed of 694 km/h at 7,400 m at ‘take-off power’. Sea level speed was 534 km/h at ‘take-off power’. Full throttle height increased from 6,400 m in the regular FW 190 A-3 to 7,400 m in the FW 190 A-3/U7.
Rodeike notes that by … 1942 the three FW 190 A-3/U7s “waren bereits in der Erprobung”.
UP TO PAGE 120 IN RODEIKE
The Geschwaderstab took on two FW 190 A-3/U7s from another unit [identify it] in September 1942. In October 1942 it received a new FW 190 A-3/U7 from the factory. Strangely, at the end of November the FW 190 A-3/U7s were listed in the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen as FW 190 A-4/U7s, and under this designation they remained with the unit until May 1943, when they were given to the 10. Staffel of J.G. 2. In June the Stab took back the three FW 190 A-3/U7s. However, in the next month these aircraft were sent to other units.
Höhere Jagdfliegerführer West took on two FW 190 A-3/U7s in July 1943 from another unit, and in October 1943 still had them when it became the Stab of II. Jagdkorps.
The Stab of II. Jagdkorps had the two FW 190 A-3/U7s on strength until April 1944, when one was sent to another unit. The remaining A-3/U7 was lost in May 1944, although there was no enemy involvement in the loss.
At 16:40 on 7 May 1944 FW 190 A-3/U7 W.Nr 528, marked ‘DJ + AB’, crashed on a ferry flight two kilometres north of Langres, probably due to faulty navigation and engine trouble. The pilot, Obgefr. Edward Luchner, was killed. The unit was II. Jagdkorps.
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Can you back that up?
What an insightful response.
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What an insightful response.
What a truly insightful response. :rolleyes:
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... as well as improving the flow of cool air around the engine (IIRC, the early 190's had issues with overheating)
I'm actually having real-life problems with this as well. I have a Piper Aztec-F which has twin 250hp Lycomings. The lack of air density at higher altitudes makes the air-cooled engines run hot; the fins on the cylinder heads just don't have enough air molecules impacting them to carry away the heat. This is at relatively low alts of FL 180 - FL 200, not at the 30k + alts that an interceptor would be required to fly at!
I wonder if Jugs/Corsairs/Hellcats had any issues with this. Did the Pony and Lightning designers opt for liquid-cooling because of the altitudes they were designed to fly at? I imagine that a radial engine would have far fewer problems than my inline Lycomings...
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http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/fw-190-picture-19818.html
Here is a post i did back in 2009 with some great pictures on it these 190's.
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Malware alert on the above link with Google Chrome.
fwiw,fyi,ymmv,wlf
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CC even my Blackberry is giving the ol' "This site may harm your device" warning
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It seems that the intake experiments used a different intake than what was the "tropical intake". In tropical intake there was the option to close the front opening and pull the air in from baffles on back of intake mouth and the experimental high boost intake does not have those and thus it did not have the front flap either. As is said already it did have positive effects on engine performance and despite a slight increase in drag the benefir was greater. However they were never use in large scale. AFAIK that is.
Two superchargers? Only the normal two speed single stage supercharger IIRC.
-C+
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Only reason your getting the alerts for the link I posted is for the ads that are on the site. The owner of the site knows about it and is working to fix the issue.
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Can't be working that hard a fixing the problem. It has been at least 3 weeks since I first noticed.
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He is doing what he can, he has some other things going on too
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It seems that the intake experiments used a different intake than what was the "tropical intake". In tropical intake there was the option to close the front opening and pull the air in from baffles on back of intake mouth and the experimental high boost intake does not have those and thus it did not have the front flap either. As is said already it did have positive effects on engine performance and despite a slight increase in drag the benefir was greater. However they were never use in large scale. AFAIK that is.
Two superchargers? Only the normal two speed single stage supercharger IIRC.
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I believe you are correct, it was a single supercharger but it wasn't the normal model, I believe it was a beefed up version tooled to better handle higher altitudes. Can't recall where I read that though atm, so I may be wrong.
Lovely thread here btw.
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so...when do we get it in the game? :bolt: :D
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I'm actually having real-life problems with this as well. I have a Piper Aztec-F which has twin 250hp Lycomings. The lack of air density at higher altitudes makes the air-cooled engines run hot; the fins on the cylinder heads just don't have enough air molecules impacting them to carry away the heat. This is at relatively low alts of FL 180 - FL 200, not at the 30k + alts that an interceptor would be required to fly at!
I wonder if Jugs/Corsairs/Hellcats had any issues with this. Did the Pony and Lightning designers opt for liquid-cooling because of the altitudes they were designed to fly at? I imagine that a radial engine would have far fewer problems than my inline Lycomings...
Read up on the development of the early 190s (the As), might be an interesting read for you and the issue you're dealing with. The overheating problem with the early 190s was more of an issue with the design of the cowling and it's effect of air flow over the engine in combination with the engine's design itself, and less with altitude and thin air if I recall (though, obviously an issue to be considered). The BMW radials in 190s was a two-row radial engine design, meaning the first half of the engine's heads were arranged in a forward row, closest to the propeller and air intake. The second set of heads and back-half of the engine was located behind the first set of heads and incoming airflow for cooling. Also, in the first 190As, the engine was mounted/located as close to possible infront of the pilot and controls, making the overheating issue a particularly noticable and uncomforitable one to pilots.
AFAIK they never really adequatley resolved, completely, the issue of the rear-row of heads overheating (furthest from the prop and intake, closest row to the pilot) in the BMW radials and all the A-series 190s. It was a major issue in the first prototypes and first 190As, test pilots refered to flying the plane to like sitting with your feet in a fireplace. Eventualy (~ the time of the A-5 production) the first 190s had been around in some creative mechanics and crews hands long enough that some inovations and improvements made it back to the factory and into the production lines. The later 190 As eventualy featured longer cowlings and front ends (more space between the pilot and the rear heads, this also allowed more air circulation), larger cowlings with larger front openings (to allow more air in and around the heads), improvements to the cooling fan and gearing (the 190s featured a fan that helped with air circulation just beyond the propeller spinner and within the front opening on the cowl, see the OPs 2nd pic), and the iconic large "slots" for the exhaust and evacuating cooling airflow (a field modification on the first As that the factory then adopted as standard).
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so...when do we get it in the game? :bolt: :D
There were only three made.
If we want to put effort into talking about lighitening up a 190 and introducing it to AH, let's resurect the old issue of HiTech modeling for us in the game the heaviest (and most overweight) produced varient they ever made of the 190A-8, also in combination with one of the most underpowered engines they used for all the 190A-8 series of aircraft.
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Babalonian, there was a section added in front of the pilot on the A-5. From then on the lengths were the same.
The first 190 used the BMW139 engine of smaller diameter than the BMW801. There was no change in engine cowl diameter, or opening, after the BMW801 engine was fitted.
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http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/stuff_eng_fw190_01.htm
This page will help you in understanding the different varents and how they looked.
to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 (which we already established here) was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters.
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While the extra performance was certainly welcome the FW190s had too high wingloading to be effective fighters that high. I guess it was just not worth the effort to start installing them, especially if there were any adverse effects on performance on altitudes which suited FW better from aerodynamic point of view.
-C+
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While the extra performance was certainly welcome the FW190s had too high wingloading to be effective fighters that high. I guess it was just not worth the effort to start installing them, especially if there were any adverse effects on performance on altitudes which suited FW better from aerodynamic point of view.
-C+
That would be logical as I believe the next major component to get the attention of Focke-Wulf for improvement were the 190's wings.
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http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/stuff_eng_fw190_01.htm
This page will help you in understanding the different varents and how they looked.
to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 (which we already established here) was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters.
lol! That's quite a lot like what Dietmar Hermann and I came up with during our collaboration on our Fw 190 A-5 article (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a5.html) :)
"Another procedure to upgrade the height performance of the Fw 190 was to use external air intakes for the BMW 801 engine. This is not to be confused with the Fw 190 trop version. The test report of FW 190 No. 528 dated 27.8.1942 shows that the critical altitude -Volldruckhöhe- increased from 6400 m to 7400 m when using emergency power. Therefore this Fw 190 reached a speed of 694 km/h/431 mph at critical altitude (full throttle height) (1,42 ata, 2700 U/min, 2 MG 151, G = 3640 kg, 25.8.42). Focke-Wulf documents indicate that the external air intake should be used for the Fw 190 series, however, for reasons not yet clear it saw little operational use. While no concrete numbers can be given for aircraft equipped with this modification, a small notification from 1944 notes that 250 construction kits were available for installation in Fw 190 fighters."
;)
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lol, not saying it was mine, I should have posted the source, but forgot too. That is some great info yall posted though. Do you have any more on these types of Fw-190's, as if it inproved performance, I am surprised they didnt use the kits more.