Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Debrody on February 06, 2011, 05:22:11 AM
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between the P-47M and a Tempest? True i know the tempy is a bit faster at low altitudes, but slower above 9-10k, the jug has its über flaps, can dive better, can roll and also turn better, has better guns (50cals are hard-hitting avan at long ranges if you have 8 of them, not to talk about the 3400 rounds spray and play ability). The only clear advantage the tempes has, thats the low-altitude speed without WEP.
Why is the tempest perked to 50 and the m-jug is ENY-10? I dont see as much difference...
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Because tempest is one the fastest planes we have.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=102&p2=38&pw=0>ype=0)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=102&p2=38&pw=1>ype=0)
I don't remember a single time when a jug gave me trouble, tempests are always hard to catch.
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I see your point, but...
most people use the tempest just as a 262. Thats becouse the tempest cant really do much more. In the other hand the jug can do the same, can come at high alt, BnZ like nothing else, get 10+ kills and escape uncatchable. Only a very few planes can catch it from co-energy, temp, dora, la7, 109k, but it takes a very long time.
But true, the tempests military-power speed is superior.
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I see your point, but...
most people use the tempest just as a 262. Thats becouse the tempest cant really do much more
This is not exactly true. Yes, the top speed is it's biggest asset, but it's capable of far more than that. It also has a top class acceleration (and resulting top-notch climb rate at low alt), so it can easily slow down for a maneuver fight, then speed up and get out of it if the tactical situation demands. And do not discount the Tempest's ability to dogfight, Yes, it's a heavy plane and you will feel it, but opponents thinking of the Temps simply being just a faster Typhoon will get a nasty surprise.
For example, turning radius compared: Tempest & 47D-40 (as DokGonzo's site doesn't feature the M:)
(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/982/tempjugd40.jpg)
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Here is what I have never figured out in AH. If you put a P-51D in a dive it will do 575mph in a controls drive. If you do the same thing to the Tempest it starts to pull up automatically well before it ever reaches that kind of speed. Yet the Tempest still catches the 51 how can that be. About half the performance charts I look at has the Tempests top speed at around 426mph and the P-51Ds at 437mph and the FW-190D at a bit higher than the Pony. Plus once the 51 is at its top speed it will stay at 410mph for grid without wep if you know how to do it.
The p-51 stayed in front line service of many countries until the 1980s. US pilots shot down MiG-15s in it in Korea and Israel used it into the 1960s. There is a reason it out lived every other piston engine aircraft in the History of the world and it wasn't because it was some mediocre half baked airplane.
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The Hawker Sea Fury was used by the Cubans against the invaders at the Bay of Pigs. It also shot down at least one, possibly 2, MiG 15s over Korea.
F-51's only got some official 'damaged' and 'probable' credits against MiG-15's.
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Here is what I have never figured out in AH. If you put a P-51D in a dive it will do 575mph in a controls drive. If you do the same thing to the Tempest it starts to pull up automatically well before it ever reaches that kind of speed. Yet the Tempest still catches the 51 how can that be.
Use manual trim.
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has better guns (50cals are hard-hitting avan at long ranges if you have 8 of them, not to talk about the 3400 rounds spray and play ability).
The Tempest's Hispano Mk Vs are superior to the Browning .50s. Four Hispano Mk II are equal to, per the US Navy, an installation of twelve Browning .50s. The Hispano Mk V has a higher rate of fire than the Hispano Mk II, so probably equal to fourteen or sixteen Browning .50s. Keep in mind that Hispano cannons have very similar muzzle velocities and trajectories to the Browning .50.
Yes, the P-47 can spray and pray a lot more, if that is your thing. The odd .50 hit at long range rarely does significant damage, not so when hit by a 20mm cannon, as many a victim of the N1K2-J can attest.
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Gotta specify what "long range" is.
When I started to get good (only remember it was around the time Mindanao was in rotation), I could nail fighters 6-800 out feeling safe enough to fly predictable paths, with 6 and 8 '50s. Not every time, but maybe 1/5 which is not negligible. The amount of extra ammo you get allows you a lot of walking the bullets with short test bursts, whereas the Tempest doesn't have that margin, on top of having more difficult (still easy in the big picture, but not negligibly harder than 50s) ballistics.
The challenge with P-47 guns is exploiting convergence to the max, and making the impact stream as steady as possible. I think only at short range is the Tempest indisputably better. Guns wise.
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When I played regularly I didn't have much trouble hitting a non-maneuvering fighter at d800 with the cannons on the Mossie either. Once took out a P-51 at about d1200.
I will agree the Tempest lacks the ammo load for spray and pray, but that isn't a good habit anyways. The Tempest's K/D ratio is right up there with the Me262, often better, despite not being able to egress at will in all situations.
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Yeah but that's the Mossie. :) That little offset makes a big difference in long range effectiveness. The Tempest guns aren't that way.
Spray & pray is no good habit, but it is no less an advantage if you can afford it.
K/D includes many more things than gunnery, so that's beyond the argument I was making - strictly gunnery comparison between P-47M (haven't flown it but assuming it's a better N) and Tempest.
And that's a beautiful sight for sure. A 1K+ target totally hidden under tennis balls. :D
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Browning .50 muzzle velocity: 880m/sec, 650rpm
Hispano Mk II muzzle velocity: 880m/sec, 600rpm
Hispano Mk V muzzle velocity: 850m/sec, 750rpm
As to K/D, yes, it is a composite stat of some knowable and some unknowable stuff. None the less, the generally superior F4U-4 doesn't do nearly as well as the Tempest, likely because its guns lack the killing power and it is force to go for more tracking shots that give others a chance to kill it whereas the Tempest is able to kill much more rapidly and keep its speed.
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All that leaves to explain the clear (if minor) superiority, in my experience, of the 47's 50s over the Tempest's 20s is dispersion and volume. From 4 to 8 is 200%.
I'm not arguing 50s in general but specifically the 47's 8 gun package, and not overall Tempest/47 but strictly gunnery wise. As a gunning platform the 47 IMO is clearly better, even if marginally, than the Tempest for the far end of the gunnery spectrum.
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All that leaves to explain the clear (if minor) superiority, in my experience, of the 47's 50s over the Tempest's 20s is dispersion and volume. From 4 to 8 is 200%.
I'm not arguing 50s in general but specifically the 47's 8 gun package, and not overall Tempest/47 but strictly gunnery wise. As a gunning platform the 47 IMO is clearly better, even if marginally, than the Tempest for the far end of the gunnery spectrum.
For me it's exactly the other way. I prefer the Temp as a gunnery platform, because it allows me better snapshots at long range vs quickly crossing targets, which I do alot. P-47 may throw rounds in the air, but the effect of a few pings on such a target at D600+ is usually in favor of the Hispano.
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I'll concede that.. I personally find it easier to burst fire till my aim sticks, than rely on package with so much less ammo margin. You'd expect something different from someone who lost ability to aim anything but MK108, but I clearly remember what it was like to have the 47's 8 guns, and it was clearly more effective than 4 wing mounted 20s.
Provided 8 guns and heavy ammo load. Without those it's definitely easier to kill with the Tempest. Without those it's definitely just a few pings rather than an incessant string of "few pings" from 8 50s.
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With a Tempest, you only have to land ONE round out of the many you spray. (A separate subject which infuriates me to no end :mad:) It also turns better at jug at low speed as stated, but Tempest cant take advantage of its flaps at mid and higher speeds, as jug can. I think Tempests don't come down until 200 or so, whereas jug starts at 400
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Pretty sure it's less than 200.
The way I remember it, when looking to use flaps in the Tempest, you're almost always already so deep into low speed dodginess that you're best off mechanically bashing the flaps-down button while all your conscious focus is on maneuvering. Bashing that button till they finally come out, and then they're so much more airbrake than useful extra lift that, compared to most other top tier fighters, it's only thanks to the Tempest's massive thrust and their quick deploy/retract speed that you can really benefit from them, or at least from more than the first notch or so.
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210;
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Must be confusing it with another plane.. Or maybe the rest of the flaps come down way later. Its flap speeds aren't on the AHWiki.
For some reason I have clear memories of having to really nurse the throttle during Tempest fights, to keep the flaps out. And that they came down really late. Maybe it's been too long.
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I had to check offline, I never fly those things, as they roll like crap. I see some guys do some stuff with them, mebbe using lots of rudder. Unless you're being b&z'd to death, Temp & jug is nice fight
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The p-51 stayed in front line service of many countries until the 1980s. US pilots shot down MiG-15s in it in Korea and Israel used it into the 1960s. There is a reason it out lived every other piston engine aircraft in the History of the world and it wasn't because it was some mediocre half baked airplane.
Actually, after WWII, it wasn't even fully baked. It was cheap, easy to manufacture and could carry a decent bomb load and loiter for a while. It wasn't anything of a fighter after WWII. Also, the F4U was the last piston engined fighter to exit service AFAIK. Not the P-51.
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It also turns better at jug at low speed as stated...
The difference between the P-47M and Tempest would not be so conspicuous as the P-47D-40 and Tempest, as the M carries 200 more HP for sustained turning on WEP. That's significant. Also, the amount of torque in-game on the Tempest may make it a wash as far as useable turning radius at slow-speed sustained turns, especially given the opposite rotation of the respective props. If the fight becomes a turn fight in one direction or the other, it may lend an advantage to either plane. The Jug is very stable in-game in high-power, low speed flight, whereas the Tempest can get a little touchy.
I like to fly the Tempest, as the guns give great snap-shot opportunities, and it has better low-altitude performance, but the rate of fire on the Hispanos is hard to transition to after flying with the fricking laser beams that the caliber .50 are...
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The P-51 was still in service with Air National Guard units until 1957. The P-51 was still in service in Central American countries into the 1980s. I am old enough to remember the P-51s flying over our farm as a kid.
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The Tempest also accelerates much faster in level flight if I'm not mistaken.
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Tempest > MJUG
JUGgler
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Ok ok i give it up :lol
I still think (keyword think) the jug is better in the scissors and can do almost as well as a temp.
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Use manual trim.
This works wonders in many, many situations within the the entire plane set.
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At low altitude the tempest is superior in just about every way. Even the firing time is not much shorter because for tracking shots, firing two cannons at a time is more than enough and doubles your firing time. Save the full 4 cannon burst for bombers and close range snap shots.
Now take the tempest up to 25kft and the MJug will eat it. Take it to 30kft and the tempest will just barely hang in there while the MJug is nearly 90mph faster and still climbing...
These planes are optimized for completely different environments. The typical MA conditions are the home turf of the Tempest.
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Ok ok i give it up :lol
I still think (keyword think) the jug is better in the scissors and can do almost as well as a temp.
Just take a jug and go dogfight a temp :aok
I think you will be convinced.
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The P-51 was still in service with Air National Guard units until 1957. The P-51 was still in service in Central American countries into the 1980s. I am old enough to remember the P-51s flying over our farm as a kid.
In 1969 F4Us went up against F(P)-51s in the El Salvador/Honduras Soccer War. :old: