Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Fox on February 12, 2011, 09:08:18 AM
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Somebody posted a picture of a bomb to kill gvs in another thread. Have always wondered, how does a bomb kill a tank? Does it penetrate the armor or just kill the person inside from the pressure? I have looked on the internet for pictures of tanks destroyed by bombs that weren't direct hits, but haven't found much.
While we are at it, what does it take to kill a tank from another tank? You can kill the turret or the engine. Do you have to kill both or can you kill the person similar to a pilot wound in a plane?
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shock wave mostly I imagine - the shock wave hits the tanks armour, passes through the armour, then passes through the interior of the tank. the shape might even focus the shock wave inside, it will certainly reflect off the inside of the armour.
hold a metal wastebasket over your head, then get a friend to beat it with a wooden spoon. now multiply the effect by a million and you'll get some idea of how it works :D
edit: overpressure would be a factor too if all the hatches are open, not so much if they are closed and the tank is well sealed.
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I believe I have no destroyed a tank with a 100lb or 250lb bomb unless it has been a direct hit. A 500 or 1000 lb bomb is powerful enough to simply blow apart a tank from a close proximity impact. That amount of power can rip right through steel, tearing it apart and utterly destroying it with brute force. The AP rockets (Pb1) from the 190F-8, and the 60lb SAP (semi-AP) from the British planes actually penetrate the armor and great massive damage internally, usually killing the crew and rendering the tank destroyed.
The AP rounds from a tank or anti-tank gun penetrate the armor of the target and either kill the crew or destroy the mechanics of the gun, engine, transmission, turret, etc.
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My questions may not have been clear enough. They were directed toward what in the AH damage model is required to kill a tank, by a bomb and another tank.
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:rolleyes
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proximity, energy of the bomb AP round, all variable depending on size of ord and closeness to the target. <500lbs must be direct hit, 1000lb will still kill when 500lb won't. I've seen 1000lb'er drop quit a way from a tank & still destroy it. You're gonna have to do some studying if you want specifics....way too many variables. :old:
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Or you could just hang the Volkswagen under the Stuka, and then just drop it in the same sector. Tank go boom-boom
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See Rule #4
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It appears that if a tank is parked within a depression of the terrain that it is very difficult to kill the tank without hitting it directly regardless of the size of the bomb. At least graphically the way a bomb hit is depicted would indicate that the entire blast is directed above the point of impact.
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Rereading this today, my sarcasm didn't really translate and I just sound like a jerk, forgive me. :salute
You don't look new. By now you should at least understand how the psychics of an explosion works.......... Thus making this question, pretty LETTER AFTER E, STUPID.
must be a rook.
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It is the blastwave (shockwave) that does the damage. For example in Iraq the Muhj used old 500lb bombs as IED's. Sometimes they would double stack or triple stack them. Along comes the M1 tank and BAM! The tank didnt have to be directly over the hidden IED. The blast was enough to destroy it or certainly disable it or injure the crew due to concussion. Nasty those IED's were. So with a 500lb bomb dropped next to you GV it can kill you. Different times in history, differnet methods, but same effect.
BigKev
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One of the reasons I asked the question is because I have heard people say that it matters what position (in the gv) you are in when a bomb or tank round hits. In other words, the tank might have not been blown up if you were in a certain position when the damage happened. From my experience I don't think this is correct, but I guess I am not completely sure. I believe that some of this discussion I heard was back when jeeps (for example) could drive inside tanks and kill them.
This probably doesn't really matter much in the scheme of things, I have just always wondered how the vehicle destruction thing works.
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One of the reasons I asked the question is because I have heard people say that it matters what position (in the gv) you are in when a bomb or tank round hits. In other words, the tank might have not been blown up if you were in a certain position when the damage happened. From my experience I don't think this is correct, but I guess I am not completely sure.
You can be. It doesn't matter in which position you are when the bomb detonates.
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It appears that if a tank is parked within a depression of the terrain that it is very difficult to kill the tank without hitting it directly regardless of the size of the bomb. At least graphically the way a bomb hit is depicted would indicate that the entire blast is directed above the point of impact.
I've seen that, if the impact is over the tank on the slope it will inflict no damage. Therefore on slopes tanks are mostly invincible.
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tbh the shockwave rips the armor apart, i seen photos of the aftermath of a B-17 carpet bombing in normandy not only were tanks flipped, but alot were ripped apart, another thing that cuases it is the concussion would sometimes set off round inside the tank.
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tbh the shockwave rips the armor apart, i seen photos of the aftermath of a B-17 carpet bombing in normandy not only were tanks flipped, but alot were ripped apart, another thing that cuases it is the concussion would sometimes set off round inside the tank.
TBH, the concussion (from even a 100lb bomb) will scramble brains/bodies first, foremost and easiest.
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500 & 1000 lb'rs treat tanks like beer cans. Many many bodies are discovered during war aftermath with no outward injuries. Only signs of death are pale skin (No vitals) and maybe blood in their ears or eyes. Killed by pure shock wave energy.
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tbh the shockwave rips the armor apart, i seen photos of the aftermath of a B-17 carpet bombing in normandy not only were tanks flipped, but alot were ripped apart, another thing that cuases it is the concussion would sometimes set off round inside the tank.
If you're referring to the picture I think you are, the tank in question was a Tiger I, and it was actually struck directly by a 500lb bomb.
It's true that large blasts can toss big armor around like toys, but provided they're buttoned up, the kill mechanism is most likely blunt trauma due to rapid acceleration of the personnel inside. I can check with a buddy of mine who does Lethality Analysis, but I'm pretty sure that the armor of an MBT is stout enough to handle some righteous over-pressures, so provided they're buttoned up, a big exterior HE blast (short of a direct/or near-direct hit) should have minimal direct effect on the crew. When a bomb explodes nearby, the energy of the blast is temporarily stored as strain energy in the tank's armor, and what little bit reaches the crew is due to displacement of air INSIDE the tank due to the deflection of the armor. Provided the armor itself doesn't fail, it's not really a big deal.
Also, provided the tank's ammo, specifically the primer/safe-arm device, is properly designed, there's no way that shock/vibration (what you call concussion) is going to detonate modern explosives. It takes extremely high energy levels (read that HIGH HEAT) to do the job.
Not totally relevant to the discussion, but here's some Eye Candy:
We designed LOSAT here in Dallas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho_VHOjzMX0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULRsLR1i1yU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwixhQI-r5w&NR=1
Our buddies in Orlando created Javelin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH4PkOhrSn0&feature=related
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I imagine modern composite armour is designed to disrupt the propagation of the shock wave through to the interior of the tank so the effects would be much reduced these days, but the solid chunks of steel used in WWII would transmit the energy pretty well I'm guessing. I can see delamination being a problem for modern armour though under these conditions maybe :headscratch:
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In 1942, the Luftwaffe conducted a series of tests to evaluate the efficiency of large bombs against tanks. 550lbs SC-250 were used against T-34's, M-4 Sherman and Mark IV Churchills.
Results: Churchill was the weakest tank, it's hull was ruptured by one SC-250 detonating at a distance if 5m. Both the T-34 and M-4 hulls did survive an explosion at only 3m, but test animals inside the tanks were killed by overpressure and the T-34's fuel ignited.