Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Krusty on February 16, 2011, 12:09:45 AM
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Remove the 20mm.... I thought it was pretty well established and shown these were removed?
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Remove the 20mm.... I thought it was pretty well established and shown these were removed?
They did. :aok How ever they did see use.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/b29444th2.jpg)
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Remove the 20mm.... I thought it was pretty well established and shown these were removed?
It was established that many, probably most, were removed, not all. We have plenty of armament options in AH that were in the minority.
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Remove the 20mm.... I thought it was pretty well established and shown these were removed?
With the speed and mega-alt these bombers get, i would not worry about the 20 mm but worry how the hell i am going get to the bomber, keep up with it and then then shot it down.
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I think you are assuming too much right out of the gate. :cool:
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With the speed and mega-alt these bombers get, i would not worry about the 20 mm but worry how the hell i am going get to the bomber, keep up with it and then then shot it down.
Well, it's exactly the speed & alt that makes one worry about the 20mm. Will be very hard to set up attacks that do entirely avoid the 20mm if the buff pilot choses the high road.. And just think about how dangerous the 20mm on the Ki-67 already is...
I see interesting times ahead :)
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Well, it'S exactly the speed & alt that makes one worry about the 20mm. Will be very hard to set up attacks that do entirely avoid the 20mm. And just think about how dangerous the 20mm on the Ki-67 already is...
...or the Ar234.
I know, i know. No need to tell me.
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No such gun existed in combat! :D
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.msg3947431.html#msg3947431
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No such gun existed in combat! :D
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.msg3947431.html#msg3947431
Did not know that. So, why have it on AH.
Just give the 262 their R-4/M rockets. That will handle the B-29.
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We have plenty of excellent aircraft that more than capable of taking a B-29 formation down. Easily in fact.
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We have plenty of excellent aircraft that more than capable of taking a B-29 formation down. Easily in fact.
Give it time before people whine how the B-29 is indestructible.
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if someon is going to take 30 mins to get to altitude to do one bombing run - then kudos to them.
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if someon is going to take 30 mins to get to altitude to do one bombing run - then kudos to them.
It is a lot of perk point, what ever that may be, to loose when flying low. But I am with you on your comment.
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I'd imagine it would take more than 30 minutes to get to a safe alt. It takes a B-17 with 50% fuel around 30 minutes to get to around 25k (iirc from experience). I don't know how the B-29 compares to the B-17, though
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Remove the 20mm.... I thought it was pretty well established and shown these were removed?
The 20mm were removed on the B-29B but retained on the B-29A (though some units did remove them while others kept them).
ack-ack
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Remove the 20mm.... I thought it was pretty well established and shown these were removed?
Give it a break, we don't even have the B-29 yet. Who knows maybe we'll have a gun package with & without it.
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Given the choice, most people would choose the option with the 20mm...
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It was established that many, probably most, were removed, not all. We have plenty of armament options in AH that were in the minority.
Not so much, we don't... Outside of a few exceptions I think most of the planeset is fairly representative.
There's an effort lately to revisit these armament options as planes are updated with newer 3D models. See the SpitVc reduced to SpitVb. See the 109F4 removed of gondolas. See the early 1943 109G6 with no 30mm option.
The emphasis is moving towards more representative loadouts. It's a clear trend in HTC's decisions over the past several years. I hope they stick with it.
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They kept the rarer three cannon option when they remodeled the La7. :noid
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They kept the rarer three cannon option when they remodeled the La7. :noid
True... one of the few exceptions that come to mind.
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Not so much, we don't... Outside of a few exceptions I think most of the planeset is fairly representative.
There's an effort lately to revisit these armament options as planes are updated with newer 3D models. See the SpitVc reduced to SpitVb. See the 109F4 removed of gondolas. See the early 1943 109G6 with no 30mm option.
The emphasis is moving towards more representative loadouts. It's a clear trend in HTC's decisions over the past several years. I hope they stick with it.
]
Sorry, you're wrong. The Spit Vc to Vb had nothing to do with the Vc being rare, as it was the most common version of Spit V, it had to do with getting an earlier Spit V. Same goes for the Bf109G-6 losing its 30mm, nothing to do with how common it was on G-6s and everything to do with none being on early 1943 G-6s.
The La-7, probably the most obvious example, retained its three B-20 cannon armament when it was updated, despite being updated well after the Spits and 109s.
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Noooooo not my 20mm cannon, don't take mah bucket.....err I mean my 20mm cannon!
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The 20mm is cool and was common enough in the field! at least in the earlier A models. we should keep it!! :old:
(edited to clarify)
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Well, technically if most were removed in the field, then it is a field mod which does not exist in AH. :salute
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Well, technically if most were removed in the field, then it is a field mod which does not exist in AH. :salute
The removals weren't field modifications in the sense of field mods like adding a 20mm cannons to a PBY but rather an ordered thing from high command. Since there were a limited number of B-29Bs produced, a few B-29A underwent conversion (though still retained the A model designation) and had the armor and guns removed similiar to the B model.
I believe the B-29As that were not stipped down retained the 20mm cannons while the stripped down A's initially went with the 2x .50 calibers and 20mm cannon and then later removed the 20mm cannon in favor of the 3x .50 caliber tail gun package similiar to the B.
ack-ack
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hey didnt the A model have a radar underneth it between the bombbay doors or was that only used on the model that flew during the korean war?
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The removals weren't field modifications in the sense of field mods like adding a 20mm cannons to a PBY but rather an ordered thing from high command. Since there were a limited number of B-29Bs produced, a few B-29A underwent conversion (though still retained the A model designation) and had the armor and guns removed similiar to the B model.
I believe the B-29As that were not stipped down retained the 20mm cannons while the stripped down A's initially went with the 2x .50 calibers and 20mm cannon and then later removed the 20mm cannon in favor of the 3x .50 caliber tail gun package similiar to the B.
ack-ack
AA,
I'm sure it's been posted before but I'm not in the mood to drag through 100 B29 threads so.. why did they take them out?
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AA,
I'm sure it's been posted before but I'm not in the mood to drag through 100 B29 threads so.. why did they take them out?
I believe the USAAF after some studies learned that 3x .50 calibers were just as effective with the radar guidance system than 2x .50s and single 20mm cannon.
ack-ack
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Well, technically if most were removed in the field, then it is a field mod which does not exist in AH. :salute
But field mods do exsist in AH...check out the 51B.
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When you get down to it, 3x50s would be more deadly IMO than the 2x50s plus the 20mm. The 20mm is going to have different ballistics than the fifty's so it'll throw off your aim a bit. Don't get me wrong though, when the 20mm's hit you they're still going to hurt like hell.
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But field mods do exsist in AH...check out the 51B.
And the B25C Strafer.
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The guns were removed under order of LeMay who felt the escorts could deal with intercepting fighters and that speed was more important than defensive fire power. Obviously the cannon trajectory differed from the .50 calibers and so the three .50s were favored by the crews.
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Sorry, you're wrong. The Spit Vc to Vb had nothing to do with the Vc being rare,
Jumping the gun there, mate. I never said it was. I said it was more representative... It was one of the examples of how they are moving to a more representative planeset, and since the only major SpitV matchup of EPIC proportions is against the Bf109F over the English Channel, it made sense to pair those 2 planes up properly.
I'm saying they're trying to do something other than just throw in random rarely-used guns, guns that never saw the light of day, or test kits, etc. I'm saying they're doing the responsible thing. With that in mind, the responsible thing IMO ought to be "remove the 20mm from the B-29 tail."
Ack Ack, I thought there was also a large component of the guns being unreliable, jamming, or just not being desired by the crews.
Beef, 5pointoh, "field mods" are different from general changes made at the depot level per orders from above. I think they make a difference for HTC. Those 2 changes weren't just some renegade ground crew sticking guns on planes at random.
Also, Beef: The 20mm is Hispano. It's about as close to 50cal trajectory as you can get, especially when firing rearward at 350+mph...
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I believe the USAAF after some studies learned that 3x .50 calibers were just as effective with the radar guidance system than 2x .50s and single 20mm cannon.
ack-ack
I believe I've read somewhere that it was a difference in convergence/trajectory of the mixed armament.
wrongway
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Not so much, we don't... Outside of a few exceptions I think most of the planeset is fairly representative.
There's an effort lately to revisit these armament options as planes are updated with newer 3D models. See the SpitVc reduced to SpitVb. See the 109F4 removed of gondolas. See the early 1943 109G6 with no 30mm option.
The emphasis is moving towards more representative loadouts. It's a clear trend in HTC's decisions over the past several years. I hope they stick with it.
Give us the Bf-110 G-2 with 4 MG17's instead of the 2 30mm, or at least make it a option to change them, as the 30mm was a option to the MG17's.
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Also, Beef: The 20mm is Hispano. It's about as close to 50cal trajectory as you can get
Why is it a beef when they have almost the same muzzle velocities and therefore very similar trajectories?
20mm Hispano Mk II (AH Spits and Typhoons): @880 m/s dependant on exact ammo.
12.7mm M2 Browning: @890 m/s dependant on exact ammo (ball ammo here).
The Hispano Mk II was not a low velocity cannon. You can argue the various merits of the two guns (as has been done to death and im not getting into it) but the trajectories were not very different.
The Tempests Hispano Mk V: 840 m/s thats the only other version in AH and has a somewhat greater drop at range compared to a 12.7mm Browning.
If your looking for "bam" "plop" that would be the 37mm M4 on the P-39 at 610 m/s.
Interestingly enough the MiG-15s N-37 37mm cannon did 690 m/s and you had to get to @ 200 yards to hit anything with it. Of course thats vs F-86s and they didnt have gyro sights either. Reminded me of the P-39s cannon anyways. Of course if you hit its game over for the poor sod you nailed. ;)
Was going to add re the B-29s guns. Make the 37mm optional. That way we can model early and late versions.
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if someon is going to take 30 mins to get to altitude to do one bombing run - then kudos to them.
30 mins? If I had enough perks for a Bee-twenteh-naaaaan, I'd spend an hour and a half
after upping from the opposite end of the map! :D
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Why is it a beef when they have almost the same muzzle velocities and therefore very similar trajectories?
No no no... That was directed at Beef... aka Beefcake! It was responding to his comment about differing trajectories.
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Righto. A guy can ge into trouble with all them callsigns. :lol
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Ack Ack, I thought there was also a large component of the guns being unreliable, jamming, or just not being desired by the crews.
While reliability may have been a factor, the main reason was as stated by wrongway. The trajectory from the 20mm shells was completely different than the trajectory of the .50 caliber bullets that it made aiming in combat conditions difficult. As a result the 20mms were removed from the B-29 production block 55, Bell-Atlanta block 25 and Martin-Omaha block 25 and on the B-29A, the 20mm cannon was removed from production block 20 onwards. In the case of the B-29A, when they removed the 20mm cannon, Boeing added 2 additional .50 caliber machine guns to the top turret to increase forward defensive firepower to provide additional protection against frontal attacks.
ack-ack
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Well our in-game model has 4 guns on the upper nose so that means it ought not have the 20 in the tail, right?
What kind of numbers are we talking that actually had it and kept it?
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well if its nikkis your gonna be dealing with forget the fiftys a staple gun would do the job easily. i mean the last time i took a nikki up and landed it when the tail dropped when i was slowing down, it broke in two.
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I believe I've read somewhere that it was a difference in convergence/trajectory of the mixed armament.
Yes... you did... right here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,306720.msg3953558.html#msg3953558
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The guns were removed under order of LeMay who felt the escorts could deal with intercepting fighters and that speed was more important than defensive fire power. Obviously the cannon trajectory differed from the .50 calibers and so the three .50s were favored by the crews.
Also take into account what they were defending themselves against, japanese aircraft were not that durable and in many/most cases a .50cal was just as lethal to them as a 20mm. With this same logic, looking ahead to the release of the B-29 in AH, I'm not thinking that a vast majority of intercepting aircraft will be of Japanesse nationality but rather of all varieties, thus we can speculate in this situation had historical B-29 crews had to of faced tougher attacking aircraft and had the choice of removing or keeping the 20mm they would of likely opted to keep the 20mm for taking down an aircraft signifigantly more resilient than a GI Zero. Also, bombers in AH are not as dependent on friendly fighters offering them protection as they are on their own defencive armaments, also leading us to conclude that had B-29s been in a situation requiring more independent defence for themselves, then they would likely pack as much defencive firepower along as they could.
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well if its nikkis your gonna be dealing with forget the fiftys a staple gun would do the job easily. i mean the last time i took a nikki up and landed it when the tail dropped when i was slowing down, it broke in two.
Above 20K and without warning it would be pretty tough in a N1K2 to stop the B-29.
I would much rather have the J2M3a or...for some reason we get it....I would love to have the J2M5.
That and the Ki44, esp if anyone wanted to use a B-29 for and FSO or scenario
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the B-29 in AH, I'm not thinking that a vast majority of intercepting aircraft will be of Japanesse nationality but rather of all varieties, thus we can speculate in this situation had historical B-29 crews had to of faced tougher attacking aircraft and had the choice of removing or keeping the 20mm they would of likely opted to keep the 20mm
Neither were they flying at full-frakking-throttle (the term FFT as it applies to AH refers mostly to bombers), nor were they taking off for 1000-mi missions with 25% fuel in the tanks, nor were they climbing at 2000fpm because they took less fuel, nor did they have no fear about the engines melting shortly after takeoff.....
In the real world, this plane was far less powerful than it will be as-modeled in AH. This is not to say I KNOW how HTC has modeled it, but they will follow the pattern set forth by all other bombers currently in this game (B-17, B-24, Lanc, etc).
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Well our in-game model has 4 guns on the upper nose so that means it ought not have the 20 in the tail, right?
What kind of numbers are we talking that actually had it and kept it?
It would have the 20mm cannon still because it was a Boeing B-29-50-BW and the 20mm cannon wasn't removed until the block 55's produced from the Boeing plant in Wichita. The 4x. .50 calibers is also correct in that early combat experience showed the addition of 2 more .50 calibers greatly improved forward defensive firepower so Boeing added them starting with production block 40 (Wichita plant) Bell with production block 10 and the Martin built B-29s had them from the start of production.
ack-ack
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You know what I find amusing? The fact that all these "buff killers" are whining about getting shot up by a 20mm.....if they really were the buff hunters that I've seen people (not on this particular thread) claim to be...they would know not to attack from a dead 6 which pretty much eliminates the tail gun anyway.
"But it's 30K up!"
Shut up I was at 30K in Ki 67's today.
"But I can't maneuver that high!"
Yes you can, you just don't want to have to wait around and get into position.
:ahand
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A good picture of the 20mm.
http://www.footnote.com/image/#28826595
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I am just being funny here, but the 20mm is not what really makes the things that go boom in the game. it's the other zillion mgs aiming at you :rofl.
semp