Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: df54 on February 17, 2011, 03:31:06 PM
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how do you counter a hi yo-yo
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What problem is the high yoyo creating?
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What problem is the high yoyo creating?
Death
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This is sort of a loaded question if I was trying to be funny I'd say "with a low yo-yo".
The simplest answer would be to follow in a lag pursuit but again this is assuming your in a tail chase.So if you could clarify your question then maybe someone can give you an appropriate answer!
:salute
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my understanding is a high yo-yo is used to counter a break turn. for every tactic
there is a counter tactic. when i break turn defensivley bandit simply does a high
yo-yo and gets right on my 6.
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as morfiend said, it is a loaded question, sort of....
when I, myself am in game and have a bogey coming in on me behind the 3-9 line with speed &/or alt. advantage .. I try to extend and gain any speed I can as they are closing in on me.....depending on the plane match up ( what am I flying? what are they flying? ) I will decide at what distance / time I want to perform a flat break turn, all the while I am watching & waiting for my opponent to pull into a hi yoyo, when I see them start their hi yoyo maneuver to place them in a lag pursuit position , I pull on around and up into them...... sometimes I will catch them while they are still heading upward.....sometimes I'll catch them as they begin to roll and come back down.....and sometimes I will meet them in a nose-to-nose merge. this last part with meeting them nose-to-nose, happens because the opponent recognized what was going on and rolled sooner to meet me head on.... which at this time I am going up while they are going down....which to me is working on equalizing the E state between each of us......
edit: one can also do the same as watch them and when they begin to enter a hi yoyo, you roll down and away from the direction of their hi yoyo..... to gain as much distance for seperation as possible, while they are not able to have eyes on you....
edit #2: heya df54,
if you are performing a break turn and the bandit is easily getting on your 6 by performing a Hi YoYo, you are telegraphing your intentions on the break turn and/or doing the break turn way to soon while they are still far out enough to properly counter your break turn
hope this helps
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my understanding is a high yo-yo is used to counter a break turn. for every tactic
there is a counter tactic. when i break turn defensivley bandit simply does a high
yo-yo and gets right on my 6.
Make a climbing turn into the bandit and fly inside his turn circle.
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You can counter the hi yo yo defense against your break turn by baiting the con a bit more. A reverse tactic I like to use is to look real stinky. Pull a gentle turn so your con starts to try to pull lead. Pull a bit tighter as he gets closer and then around 400 or so pull tight to him and go vertical. At the top roll your nose over if the EA pulls straight up you will get a snapshot on him with your nose inverted or at least be in a better posisiton to escape or equalize the fight in a rolling scissor etc. You have to do this reversal close....you have to keep the con interested till the last minute and then bam you bite him......it takes alot of practice to get the timing right and essentially you have to fly looking out the back of your plane.
good luck dood!
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The simplest answer would be to follow in a lag pursuit but again this is assuming your in a tail chase.So if you could clarify your question then maybe someone can give you an appropriate answer!
:salute
That's exactly what I do to counter the High Yo-Yo. If done correctly, it usually puts you in a position for the shot as they are at the apex of the Yo-Yo or as they start to come down. However, timed incorrectly can put you in a world of hurt.
ack-ack
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The thing to understand is that the hi yo-yo does a couple of things for your opponent.
1. They are putting E in the bank (preserving it) to use against you by pulling up.
2. As they slow relative to you, their turn tightens which can move them in to lead pursuit and a shot opportunity.
3. When they come down, they are going for a guns solution and a firing opportunity. If that fails, they are likely to repeat. Each time they do so, you pull harder and eat up more of your E while they are preserving theirs. Eventually you can't pull hard enough to get out of their sights.
When you lag in response, you are building your E and moving behind them (as seen from above in 2 dimensions) which can cause them problems. However as AKAK stated, if you time that incorrectly, you are actually straightening out your flight path in FRONT of them, which has bad results.
Hope that helps!
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The textbook counter to hi yoyo is to level the wings, gain speed and maintain or even increase the separation. It is possible to lower the nose a bit for a shallow dive acceleration. When he comes down from the yoyo, start to turn again. Unless he commits to a high speed, high G turn which will blow his E advantage, you can keep this up for a while. Eventually he will run out of patience or run out of energy advantage, or just make a mistake and allow the separation to grow to big or too small.
What he is doing with the yoyo is to adjust his circle with respect to yours. Most people imagine the turning circles and two overlapping circles, or two co-centric circles. This is almost never the correct picture - the circles are almost always displaced with respect to each other. When you go into a flat turn, your circle is set and very predictable. He will adjust his position and turn circle for a future interception point - destroy his extrapolation by running away and taking your circle with you. i.e., not turning. He will come out of the yoyo with his high E on your far 6 and you are back to square 1.
If he is predictable with his hi-yoyo, then start faking turns by banking and initiating a very gentle turn. When his nose go predictably up, straighten out or even initiate a gentle, nose low turn to the other direction. Many pilots will be frustrated by this, push the attack and allow you to reverse them.
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The thing to understand is that the hi yo-yo does a couple of things for your opponent.
1. They are putting E in the bank (preserving it) to use against you by pulling up.
2. As they slow relative to you, their turn tightens which can move them in to lead pursuit and a shot opportunity.
3. When they come down, they are going for a guns solution and a firing opportunity. If that fails, they are likely to repeat. Each time they do so, you pull harder and eat up more of your E while they are preserving theirs. Eventually you can't pull hard enough to get out of their sights.
When you lag in response, you are building your E and moving behind them (as seen from above in 2 dimensions) which can cause them problems. However as AKAK stated, if you time that incorrectly, you are actually straightening out your flight path in FRONT of them, which has bad results.
Hope that helps!
It's not so much the reduction in speed which tightens their turn relative to the target. Turns in the vertical take less space than a flat-turn of equal radius done in the horizontal plane because of simple geometry (draw two lines of equal length and with the same center, but with one rotated 45 degrees from horizontal for a quick and dirty example). This can allow an aircraft with a larger turn radius to (briefly) turn with or even cut inside a target with a smaller one that is using flat breaks to maneuver, by effectively using the vertical to "eat up" the extra space his aircraft requires to complete the turn.
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Bozon's reply is the best way I found to start to counter. Billy d's is the next.
I Stop my turn and get as much e as I can and separation. I will do it as many times as I can to equalize e states. I will turn to bait him then straighten as fast as I can. As I see the E states equalize I will start to turn back into his Yo Yo with a wide flat turn. He is slow at the top of the yo yo by bringing your circle back to his He can't gain as much e as he needs to by diving down on you because you closed the distance. Most of the time it will go into a rolling scissors.
Hope this helps
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Anyone who wants to use this advice should keep in mind that we're all making assumptions about relative aircraft performance and E states. A fast jug diving on a slow zeke is a very different situation than a fast zeke diving on a slow jug.
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You are forgetting Billy's tactic is best used in a G14 or K4 where you have "Warp 12 on a Button" to tourque muscle you through. A P51 can't perform his manuver as well if it is low and slow. A K4 can by virtue of its wep and better power to weight capabilities in gaining back speed.
You guys might want to list the aircraft involved and how well they can perform this response tactic to other aircraft. Some aircraft are better at performing some tactics than others. Three different players who are experts in three different aircraft can all three make it look like the same tactic works just fine in all three aircraft. Then when you make them trade rides all three get killed because they don't have the timing down for the new ride.
Which ride is the OP in when he is having his problems against the High YoYo? Which ride is giving him the problems executing a High YoYo?
The list of talented players responding to this OP have played the game long enough that most rides in the game are well known to them. I'm assuming the OP is not at that stage of his game development yet. So he may be better able to use your advice if you tie it directly to his current experience and ride.
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You are forgetting Billy's tactic is best used in a G14 or K4 where you have "Warp 12 on a Button" to tourque muscle you through. A P51 can't perform his manuver as well if it is low and slow. A K4 can by virtue of its wep and better power to weight capabilities in gaining back speed.
You guys might want to list the aircraft involved and how well they can perform this response tactic to other aircraft. Some aircraft are better at performing some tactics than others. Three different players who are experts in three different aircraft can all three make it look like the same tactic works just fine in all three aircraft. Then when you make them trade rides all three get killed because they don't have the timing down for the new ride.
Which ride is the OP in when he is having his problems against the High YoYo? Which ride is giving him the problems executing a High YoYo?
The list of talented players responding to this OP have played the game long enough that most rides in the game are well known to them. I'm assuming the OP is not at that stage of his game development yet. So he may be better able to use your advice if you tie it directly to his current experience and ride.
Yes Bustr hit the nail on the head,the reason I said it was a loaded question. I would add to bustr's remarks that if the OP would film and submit the film it would be much easier to answer his question in detail.
Now this could lead to all types of smart remarks in some other forums but I would hope that since this is "help and training" that those remarks would be of a constructive nature.There's been much good advice given but most newer players dont have the skill sets to implement this great advice and not knowing the Op's plane or planes of choice the best we can do is "guess" what the proper counter as I dont think it's as simple as do this or do that.
:salute
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Make a climbing turn into the bandit and fly inside his turn circle.
then the yoyo flyer would just rope up instead and wait patiently to come back down? or am i wrong in assuming this tactic?
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then the yoyo flyer would just rope up instead and wait patiently to come back down? or am i wrong in assuming this tactic?
Anyone who wants to use this advice should keep in mind that we're all making assumptions about relative aircraft performance and E states. A fast jug diving on a slow zeke is a very different situation than a fast zeke diving on a slow jug.
You're making assumptions about aircraft performance and relative energy states. The original question was too vague and the clarification was how to deal with a high yoyo after a break turn defense. The energy states and aircraft performance are still open questions. Turning into the bandit's turn circle is generally good advice. What will actually work in a specific fight depends on aircraft performance and energy states.
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as morfiend said, it is a loaded question, sort of....
~snip~
.. I try to extend and gain any speed I can as they are closing in on me.....depending on the plane match up ( what am I flying? what are they flying? ) I will decide at what distance / time I want to perform a flat break turn, all the while I am watching & waiting for my opponent to pull into a hi yoyo,
~snip~
same reason I posted the above.. OP was to vague / to generic in his description
from reading 5 or 6 of the replys, it looks like everyone is saying the exact same things, only in different wording......