Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tac on February 20, 2011, 02:32:27 PM
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The aircraft pron thread started this week featured a few flying boats and it made me wonder....
why are they no longer in service for commercial passenger transportation?
I mean.. there's got to be something the flying boats can still do well since having the entire flippin' ocean as a runway and the ability to still touch down in land has to be of some value no?
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I read in an issue of P&P or Flying a year or so ago about a company in Europe that has the license to make a flying boat that would carry around 8 people. There was also some guy working on a light sport seaplane. It's definitely a niche market, but it's not completely dead..
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They are very popular around my area for joy flights, a lot of fun to go for a ride in.
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I have flown my boat. Does that count?
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I have flown my boat. Does that count?
Made me think of this:
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/speedboat_jesus.jpg)
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The aircraft pron thread started this week featured a few flying boats and it made me wonder....
why are they no longer in service for commercial passenger transportation?
I mean.. there's got to be something the flying boats can still do well since having the entire flippin' ocean as a runway and the ability to still touch down in land has to be of some value no?
Off the top of my head (not an engineer)
1. Floating hull is not as aerodynamic and adds weight compared with regular fuselage. So, lowers speed and increases fuel consumption.
2. Many customers not in areas with easy access to suitable bodies of water and dockage, so automatically smaller market
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The aircraft pron thread started this week featured a few flying boats and it made me wonder....
why are they no longer in service for commercial passenger transportation?
I mean.. there's got to be something the flying boats can still do well since having the entire flippin' ocean as a runway and the ability to still touch down in land has to be of some value no?
The three problems, on a commercial level, that I know of are:
1) While the entire ocean would be your runway, it is subject to weather conditions, often times being effected by a storm/system that is passing clear many miles away. While normal runways are also subject to weather closures and delays, they can continue operating fully or limitidly in mild or severe weather conditions that would all but scrub flying boat landings and takoffs. If you're running a commercial buisness and your bread-n-butter is your three daily buisness flights (morning noon and evening) from wherever to your state's capital and you regularly have to cancel your afternoon flights because of a summer evening breeze condition that creates chops and swells, your customers will not wait long before finding an alternative means of transporting themselves in and out for a day's meeting so they can be home for dinner reliabley
2) Safety has a price - practicality. To be profitable you need to be offering a service people will pay for. Often governments and institutions have procedures and policys in place to ensure a paying customers not only gets what they payed for, but recieves their services in a manner that won't kill them or put them in excessive harms way. When you think about building a flying boat to meet these requirements for handling 100 passengers a day, compare it to a traditional airliner that meets these requirments and handles 100 passengers a day, and the various weather conditions each can or can't operate in, and one choice quickly becomes more apparent as being the most economical and viable. Also, there's other factors to take into account that might not be as apparent. Think of how much negative press an emergency landing because of a common bird strike brings these days. Now think how much more common a problem bird strikes might be and how much more frequent these already regular occurances might be to aircaft that land and takeoff exclusively on waterways and that load/unload in marinas? Also a part of safety is maintenance to ensure safe flying condition of aircraft... if you've ever had to maintain a boat or car living next to the ocean, you already know this is 3-4x times as intensive and critical as for those who don't live next to or with salt water (and good luck making as much profit as your competition with your aircraft in the hangar at least 3-4x as often as theirs).
3) Economics. As it is the industry is very heavily driven by getting the most amount of X-pounds of cargo/passengers across Y-distances for the least $. Take that formula, apply it to flying boat industry models, then compare it to the existing compeition and competitors cost formulas (ontop of taking into account the previous safety and weather limitations implied from the previous points), and you've already lost - short of a global meltdown and flooding of most current and existing runways.
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Back in the day of flying boats there were many places that had no runways of any type. There are far fewer destinations that have no runway now.
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I used to see them landing and taking off in the cruise ship seaway in Miami bordering the Lindberg all the time.
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I used to see them landing and taking off in the cruise ship seaway in Miami bordering the Lindberg all the time.
Prolly Chalks if they were white
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We used to have one of these squatting at Morristown for years.
(http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircraft/small/213/213079.jpg)
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Ive wanted a Lake ever since I saw Arnie flying one in Commando :D
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World War Two accelerated the death of commercial flying boats. Before the war there were relatively few runways worldwide that could handle very large passenger aircraft. That was the great commercial advantage to the flying boat, being able to land where nothing else could. One of the war's legacies was many large runways built everywhere from Europe to Africa, Asia and even all across the Pacific.
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We used to have Grummand Goose flying boats here in the Virgin Islands.I flew from St.Croix to St.Thomas on one 20+ years ago.
(http://www.catalinamayer.com/images/p/pcantg211.jpg)
Hurricane Hugo wiped out the entire fleet of planes.Landing and taking off aboard a flying boat is much cooler than the current Twin Otter float planes they use now.
(http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=27686)
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We used to have Grummand Goose flying boats here in the Virgin Islands.I flew from St.Croix to St.Thomas on one 20+ years ago.
(http://www.catalinamayer.com/images/p/pcantg211.jpg)
Hurricane Hugo wiped out the entire fleet of planes.Landing and taking off aboard a flying boat is much cooler than the current Twin Otter float planes they use now.
(http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=27686)
Those Are Epic Aircraft.
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Those Are Epic Aircraft
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Those Are Epic Aircraft.
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Flying boats/amphibs have a minor identity crisis. They aren't very good boats, and they aren't very good planes. They can do both, albeit less efficient and much more costly than their conventional counterparts. They were designed when runways were few and far between, and lakes/bays/large bodies of water were convenient and accessible. My DPE for my PPL checkride has a super cub on floats and told me it costs him almost 5k/yr just to insure it.
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Made me think of this:
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/speedboat_jesus.jpg)
:rofl
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There was also some guy working on a light sport seaplane.
This one? Icon A5
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/jager515/IconA5.jpg)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/jager515/icon_a52.jpg)
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As someone said, before WW2 there were few long runways and flying boats seemed to be the future. But once all those long wartime runways were built. The poor economics of flying boats alongside landplanes became obvious.
Dornier still have a flying boat:(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Dornier_Seastar_D-ICKS.jpg/300px-Dornier_Seastar_D-ICKS.jpg)When I win the Eurolotto I might buy one! :aok
But really I'd love a Catalina. There's a crashed and dismantled one sitting at an airport here. I had a good look over it. I reckon it's restorable. Another plan for the lotto win.
There are plans for a seaplane service to and from the town I live in. So far it's only a website, aspirations and some proving flights in Cessna 172 floatplane. But I have my resume in with them. I'd fancy seeing out my career flying seaplanes.
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Flying boats disappear because they operated largely in salt water.
This ensures complete destruction in a short amount of time.
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This aircraft had the same maximum speed as a B-17 on 50% more power, though it did climb better and have longer endurance. The speed bit is really the efficiency indicator:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Kawanishi_H8K2_%28Emily%29_flying_boat.jpg/1024px-Kawanishi_H8K2_%28Emily%29_flying_boat.jpg)
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There are still lots of Grumman Gooses and Widgeons flying up in Alaska.
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There's plenty of float-fitted planes here in Maine. Nothing I would consider "flying boats" though. In fact, I nearly got in a mid-air with one a few weeks ago. It's the perfect place for them. You can't go anywhere in this state without being within 20 miles of a sizeable lake. I'd love to have myself a Dehav. Beaver :x
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This aircraft had the same maximum speed as a B-17 on 50% more power, though it did climb better and have longer endurance. The speed bit is really the efficiency indicator:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Kawanishi_H8K2_%28Emily%29_flying_boat.jpg/1024px-Kawanishi_H8K2_%28Emily%29_flying_boat.jpg)
Makes me wonder how much faster and what it's payload would be if you changed it from a float plane to a "true" bomber. :headscratch:
If we get the Emily, the Mavis shouldn't be too far behind. :aok
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Year old thread is year old.
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seven people who still think it relevant. :aok
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Floats :)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/IMAG0262.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/IMAG0261.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/1-1.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/IMAG0265.jpg)
I took these at the pacific museum in Fredericksburg Texas.