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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 04:23:46 PM

Title: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 04:23:46 PM
This is A post on "defensive-mechanisms" used in the MA by people who wonder why they suck. label all of the defense mechanisms you see on a daily basis that cause these people to put them selves in a  bad situation. against the vets.

one I use all to often is flying on my opponents terms. ie lacking to force into my planes advantage points.
others maybe "extending" in a 1V1
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Tupac on February 23, 2011, 04:26:30 PM
Ill drop flaps and start to turn in a pony, just to watch the other plane extend out and fly away, the pony lacking the acceleration to catch him.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: StokesAk on February 23, 2011, 04:31:43 PM
Pulling too many Gs when they come down to pick me.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Yeager on February 23, 2011, 04:37:35 PM
Wondering why everyone HOs me.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: BoilerDown on February 23, 2011, 04:40:42 PM
This game takes no skill, it only needs no life so you have time to climb higher than the other guy before diving on them.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 04:48:39 PM
Wondering why everyone HOs me.
to put this in correct category:  what are you doing to set your self up to be HO'd??
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: SPKmes on February 23, 2011, 04:49:09 PM
Head on and an even bigger one  throttle control ( this isn't early days GT).....also plane choice...not so much what you use...more the amount of time you use it. chopping and changing planes doesn't help you out much when you start.....
I spose not "defensive-mechanisms" as such but these are things I have learn't and am noticing when coming up against some of the newer faces (names)  in game
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 04:49:47 PM
This game takes no skill, it only needs no life so you have time to climb higher than the other guy before diving on them.


can U elaborate? I know what you mean but I don't know what you ment   :headscratch:
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 04:51:40 PM
Head on and an even bigger one  throttle control ( this isn't early days GT).....also plane choice...not so much what you use...more the amount of time you use it. chopping and changing planes doesn't help you out much when you start.....
I spose not "defensive-mechanisms" as such but these are things I have learn't and am noticing when coming up against some of the newer faces (names)  in game

I gather from this: STICK WITH A PLANE AND LEARN FROM IT, changing planes will NOT make you better
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Solar10 on February 23, 2011, 04:56:17 PM
Not slowing down.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: fuzeman on February 23, 2011, 04:57:34 PM
I gather from this: STICK WITH A PLANE AND LEARN FROM IT, changing planes will NOT make you better

 I suggest this, build a great big foundation of knowledge and then apply the pertinent stuff the the crate you are in.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: JUGgler on February 23, 2011, 05:02:54 PM
Not slowing down.


 :aok   In the pony either be a "dead shot" at 800+ or  SLOW DOWN  ;)

Great point from the killer solar10



JUGgler
Title: STICKY THIS THREAD
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 05:06:30 PM
I suggest this, build a great big foundation of knowledge and then apply the pertinent stuff the the crate you are in.

I see to many pilots reverting to a different plane during frustrations, which stops the learning process, and may even be set you back a little.  :airplane:
 to be good you will die and learn from it, build on it.

this is in important thread it should be stickied so it's seen for new comers.  :rock
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Solar10 on February 23, 2011, 05:32:37 PM

 :aok   In the pony either be a "dead shot" at 800+ or  SLOW DOWN  ;)

Great point from the dead solar10



JUGgler

Fixed it   :salute
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Guppy35 on February 23, 2011, 05:45:59 PM
I suck because I choose to!

OK better define what it means to 'suck' in the MA better

If sucking means dying often in the MA, then I am king of suckage.

How do I do this so well?  I more often then not am below the bad guys.  I more often then not, fly into a large crowd of red.  I can generally be found in the P38G below and flying into the large crowd of red.  I do it well because that's how I choose to play.

I did a little experiment not too long ago.  I put myself in 51B, 51D and Spit VIII.  I flew them and fought only with the advantage.  I got bored fairly fast.  But my K/D was 9.  My K/D in the 38G was under 1.  

What did I learn?  I learned that I have a short attention span.  I learned that if I only flew with the advantage, I too can look like I know what I'm doing.  I learned that I have more fun wading into a fight regardless and that I die often in those circumstances.

If your goal is to not 'die' in your cartoon plane, it's really fairly simple.  
-Don't engage without an advantage.
-Alt is life
-Stay fast
-Only use your planes strengths, don't play into the other guys plane strengths
-Fly a cartoon plane that has more advantages then disadvantages
-When in doubt, run

If your goal is to have fun in AH
-Don't worry about dying.  You'll learn a lot more about the performance of your particular plane that way by fighting it regardless of advantage or disadvantage
-Fly however you enjoy the game the most and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks.
-Remember no one is really dying
Title: Re: STICKY THIS THREAD
Post by: gyrene81 on February 23, 2011, 05:52:42 PM
this is in important thread it should be stickied so it's seen for new comers.  :rock

here is exactly how important this thread is...

If your goal is to have fun in AH
-Don't worry about dying.  You'll learn a lot more about the performance of your particular plane that way by fighting it regardless of advantage or disadvantage
-Fly however you enjoy the game the most and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks.
-Remember no one is really dying
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 23, 2011, 06:10:53 PM
This is A post on "defensive-mechanisms" used in the MA by people who wonder why they suck. label all of the defense mechanisms you see on a daily basis that cause these people to put them selves in a  bad situation. against the vets.

one I use all to often is flying on my opponents terms. ie lacking to force into my planes advantage points.
others maybe "extending" in a 1V1

The only good defense is a good offense.  When I'm bounced, instead of flying defensively I go on the attack to try and force the attacker into the defensive.

ack-ack
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 06:11:46 PM
I suck because I choose to!

OK better define what it means to 'suck' in the MA better

If sucking means dying often in the MA, then I am king of suckage.

How do I do this so well?  I more often then not am below the bad guys.  I more often then not, fly into a large crowd of red.  I can generally be found in the P38G below and flying into the large crowd of red.  I do it well because that's how I choose to play.

I did a little experiment not too long ago.  I put myself in 51B, 51D and Spit VIII.  I flew them and fought only with the advantage.  I got bored fairly fast.  But my K/D was 9.  My K/D in the 38G was under 1.  

What did I learn?  I learned that I have a short attention span.  I learned that if I only flew with the advantage, I too can look like I know what I'm doing.  I learned that I have more fun wading into a fight regardless and that I die often in those circumstances.

If your goal is to not 'die' in your cartoon plane, it's really fairly simple.  
-Don't engage without an advantage.
-Alt is life
-Stay fast
-Only use your planes strengths, don't play into the other guys plane strengths
-Fly a cartoon plane that has more advantages then disadvantages
-When in doubt, run

If your goal is to have fun in AH
-Don't worry about dying.  You'll learn a lot more about the performance of your particular plane that way by fighting it regardless of advantage or disadvantage
-Fly however you enjoy the game the most and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks.
-Remember no one is really dying


best response yet   :aok
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Soulyss on February 23, 2011, 07:15:12 PM

best response yet   :aok


He also is some of the best bait in AH.  A couple years back I tracked my kills per death and kills per sortie against the number of sorties Corkyjr flew that month over a 4 or 5 month period and found a direct correlation. :)
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Tupac on February 23, 2011, 07:19:55 PM
I played my first 6 months of the game parked in a hurricane, so my "foundation" so to speak is heavily reliant on TnB, so when I get engaged the knee-jerk reaction is to sucker them into a turnfight.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: phatzo on February 23, 2011, 07:50:42 PM
Head on and an even bigger one  throttle control ( this isn't early days GT).....also plane choice...not so much what you use...more the amount of time you use it. chopping and changing planes doesn't help you out much when you start.....
I spose not "defensive-mechanisms" as such but these are things I have learn't and am noticing when coming up against some of the newer faces (names)  in game
chasing after the Ki-61 thinking "I've got Tongsy"
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Scotty55OEFVet on February 23, 2011, 08:16:20 PM
Having too much smash and then losing it as I pull up and over to get on their 6 again, by which point I have lost my E advantage and am toast.  :furious
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 10:27:51 PM
Having too much smash and then losing it as I pull up and over to get on their 6 again, by which point I have lost my E advantage and am toast.  :furious
I hate this also, works against some but not others     :pray
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: GNucks on February 23, 2011, 10:55:23 PM
Stay on the offensive as much as possible. If he's on the defensive trying to stay away from you he's not shooting at you.

Also: You don't need to "saddle up" to get a kill (ie you don't have to be behind him and turning with him). If you have him on the defensive chances are he's turning every which way pulling lots of a G's. Use your speed and keep your E. Fly around his little stunt show and jump in for a high-deflection shot that he won't be able to dodge. Get good at the high-deflection. (And no, I don't mean HO.)

Speaking of HO: A HO is when both planes have gun solution on each other and are just hosing hoping for the best. When I first started playing I refused to take a shot that was anywhere near somebody's 12 in fear of being called a HO'er.  Eventually I learned that there's a lot of guys who will prolong a fight until their friends show up by turning toward you as much as they can hoping you won't take a shot at their 12. Finally I decided enough is enough and began taking these shots. I started dying less and getting more kills.
It's not a HO unless they have you in their gunsights too. And if they did have you in their sights and didn't take the shot (or fired and failed) then they still lose fair and square.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Guppy35 on February 23, 2011, 10:57:23 PM
>Implying the only way to have fun is to play his way.

On topic: Stay on the offensive as much as possible. If he's on the defensive trying to stay away from you he's not shooting at you.

Also: You don't need to "saddle up" to get a kill (ie you don't have to be behind him and turning with him). If you have him on the defensive chances are he's turning every which way pulling lots of a G's. Use your speed and keep your E. Fly around his little stunt show and jump in for a high-deflection shot that he won't be able to dodge. Get good at the high-deflection. (And no, I don't mean HO.)

Speaking of HO: A HO is when both planes have gun solution on each other and are just hosing hoping for the best. When I first started playing I refused to take a shot that was anywhere near somebody's 12 in fear of being called a HO'er.  Eventually I learned that there's a lot of guys who will prolong a fight until their friends show up by turning toward you as much as they can hoping you won't take a shot at their 12. Finally I decided enough is enough and began taking these shots. I started dying less and getting more kills.
It's not a HO unless they have you in their gunsights too. And if they did have you in their sights and didn't take the shot (or fired and failed) then they still lose fair and square.

Comprehension skills need work.  What's "my way" when I say fly how you want and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks?

Haven't you got a base to capture somewhere?
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Rino on February 23, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
     Haven't seen a vReadnizFundamentl yet :)
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: GNucks on February 23, 2011, 11:03:56 PM
Comprehension skills need work.  What's "my way" when I say fly how you want and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks?

Haven't you got a base to capture somewhere?

Apologies, Guppy. I reread your post after posting mine and found that my first line was false and that you did not imply the only way to have fun was to play the way you do. And I admit I knew it was inflammatory when I posted it.

I wish to retract that first line, but still mean everything else I said and I hope it's helpful to any of the newer pilots.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Void on February 23, 2011, 11:06:52 PM
Rudder = life.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 23, 2011, 11:26:55 PM
Rudder = life.

elaborate?
 :confused:
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: crazyivan on February 24, 2011, 12:02:21 AM
Rudder = life.
You'll go blind.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: guncrasher on February 24, 2011, 02:38:26 AM
my first plane was the b26's  easy to learn, easy to fly, easy to get kills in.  my second plane was the zero after a few thousands deaths, i got to do ok in it.  the next plane was the spit9, i got to love that dweeb plane, until i flew the spit8.  call me a spit dweeb all you want after i kill you  :D.  when i want some easy kills, i get the p51 or the fw190.  nothing beats the lazy bnz or picking planes (specially vamp :)) with those two.

except for the 109 when actually flown in other than trying to rope attitude and the p38.  most so called "man's planes" are just glorified easy mode planes.

did i tell you that while dying the first 10,000 times, I also had fun?  I learned back then that as long as i get to shoot once, even if I dont hit anything, that it's fun for me.  and oh yeah, i always yell "get some, get some"  while pulling the trigger, unless  my gf comes in and tells me to shut the hell up.

semp

Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Soulyss on February 24, 2011, 10:55:29 AM
I find the three most common mistakes that I see in the MA (and commit myself) are probably.

1. Lack of SA
2. Misjudging either the bad guys E or my own speed/rate of closure
3. Flying a predictable flight path.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: thomace on February 24, 2011, 11:26:45 AM
This game takes no skill, it only needs no life so you have time to climb higher than the other guy before diving on them.

altitude advantage has been "fighter 101" since ww1 til right now...
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: JUGgler on February 24, 2011, 12:45:08 PM
I find the three most common mistakes that I see in the MA (and commit myself) are probably.

1. Lack of SA
2. Misjudging either the bad guys E or my own speed/rate of closure
3. Flying a predictable flight path.


Agree with this, I would also add "get off the damn gas" once in awhile  :)


Also don't allow too much verticle separation at the merge unless YOU are the "low one"  :aok for If he is lower he is already behind you   :joystick:



JUGgler
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: SlapShot on February 24, 2011, 01:28:33 PM
The best defensive move is one that will put you in a position of offense ... if the other guy makes a mistake.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 24, 2011, 03:24:29 PM

Agree with this, I would also add "get off the damn gas" once in awhile  :)


Also don't allow too much verticle separation at the merge unless YOU are the "low one"  :aok for If he is lower he is already behind you   :joystick:



JUGgler

ooh  I like this high lighted one. I need a demonstration of this! usually in vertical separation, and I'm under neath, it just means hes on top of me...??? so i need to fix this....
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: SlapShot on February 24, 2011, 03:46:48 PM
ooh  I like this high lighted one. I need a demonstration of this! usually in vertical separation, and I'm under neath, it just means hes on top of me...??? so i need to fix this....

Think of it like this ...

There is 100 ft of vertical separation between us at the merge and we are traveling at the same speed ... equal E.

You are above me (100 ft) and as soon as we merge ...

You pull up ... I pull up ... I am now 100 ft behind you.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 24, 2011, 03:50:32 PM
Think of it like this ...

There is 100 ft of vertical separation between us at the merge and we are traveling at the same speed ... equal E.

You are above me (100 ft) and as soon as we merge ...

You pull up ... I pull up ... I am now 100 ft behind you.

if I read this right. if I'm under you.... you would be looking at the stars, or sky, and I would be looking at your tail.   not helping...
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: The Jekyll on February 24, 2011, 04:01:45 PM
I suck because I choose to!

OK better define what it means to 'suck' in the MA better

If sucking means dying often in the MA, then I am king of suckage.

How do I do this so well?  I more often then not am below the bad guys.  I more often then not, fly into a large crowd of red.  I can generally be found in the P38G below and flying into the large crowd of red.  I do it well because that's how I choose to play.

I did a little experiment not too long ago.  I put myself in 51B, 51D and Spit VIII.  I flew them and fought only with the advantage.  I got bored fairly fast.  But my K/D was 9.  My K/D in the 38G was under 1.  

What did I learn?  I learned that I have a short attention span.  I learned that if I only flew with the advantage, I too can look like I know what I'm doing.  I learned that I have more fun wading into a fight regardless and that I die often in those circumstances.

If your goal is to not 'die' in your cartoon plane, it's really fairly simple.  
-Don't engage without an advantage.
-Alt is life
-Stay fast
-Only use your planes strengths, don't play into the other guys plane strengths
-Fly a cartoon plane that has more advantages then disadvantages
-When in doubt, run

If your goal is to have fun in AH
-Don't worry about dying.  You'll learn a lot more about the performance of your particular plane that way by fighting it regardless of advantage or disadvantage
-Fly however you enjoy the game the most and quit worrying about what the other guy thinks.
-Remember no one is really dying

 :aok :aok

Couldn't have said it better
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Zazen13 on February 25, 2011, 09:24:41 AM
As mentioned...stick with a plane...it isn't just coincidence the most deadly players always fly the same aircraft(s). I know what newbies think..they take a Spit up, get owned by a Niki, then say to themselves, "Damn, that Niki is a good plane". So, next hop they take a Niki up, then they get whacked by a P51 and the cycle continues. It's not the plane that killed you, it's the guy flying it. He knows his plane better than you know yours and simply used that knowledge and your lack thereof to his advantage.

I know some get bored flying the same plane. So, if you are one of those people my suggestion is to pick a perk plane, a sub 10 ENY plane and a sub 20 ENY plane to get really good at and stick with them. Then you will have one to use in every situation. I would also suggest not mixing gun platform types. By that I mean pick either wing mounted gun package planes or nose/cowl mounted. The reason is, the mental aiming process is subtlety different between them and adapting to that from one flight to the next compounds the difficulty of success exponentially.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: Getback on February 25, 2011, 10:48:22 AM
I thought we were suppose to die in the MA.
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: SlapShot on February 25, 2011, 11:30:06 AM
if I read this right. if I'm under you.... you would be looking at the stars, or sky, and I would be looking at your tail.   not helping...

You read it right ... your just not comprehending the concept of what JUGgler pointed out ... for If he is lower he is already behind you

If I am looking at the stars, or sky and you are looking at my tail ... would you not be "behind" me ?
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 25, 2011, 03:11:23 PM
You read it right ... your just not comprehending the concept of what JUGgler pointed out ... for If he is lower he is already behind you

If I am looking at the stars, or sky and you are looking at my tail ... would you not be "behind" me ?

absolutely.

but this would fall under the definition of the "ROPE" maneuver. right?  I don't think that this is what he was implying. He is stating,  in my opinion,  that if he was underneath the above or attacker,  that he would still have the advantage point, in saying lower and slower already to be behind.  I just need an example that will HELP me with comprehending it. I believe there is a huge difference in understanding something vs. comprehending it.     much like the vastness of space. can anyone REALLY comprehend just how vast space really is?   so I need to sit in an aircraft while it pulls off the ingenious maneuver and probably 100 more times again plus PRACTICE to be able to comprehend it.     :salute 
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: JUGgler on February 25, 2011, 03:31:56 PM
absolutely.

but this would fall under the definition of the "ROPE" maneuver. right?  I don't think that this is what he was implying. He is stating,  in my opinion,  that if he was underneath the above or attacker,  that he would still have the advantage point, in saying lower and slower already to be behind.  I just need an example that will HELP me with comprehending it. I believe there is a huge difference in understanding something vs. comprehending it.     much like the vastness of space. can anyone REALLY comprehend just how vast space really is?   so I need to sit in an aircraft while it pulls off the ingenious maneuver and probably 100 more times again plus PRACTICE to be able to comprehend it.     :salute  


Take a quarter and trace the left "half" circle from 6 to 12 oclock, while still holding the quarter slide it 1/2 a quarters width down now draw the right "half" circle from 6 to 12 oclock! What do you see! bang bang!

Fundamentals man!  


I think that was lesson #8  :)



JUGgler
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 25, 2011, 04:01:13 PM

Take a quarter and trace the left "half" circle from 6 to 12 oclock, while still holding the quarter slide it 1/2 a quarters width down now draw the right "half" circle from 6 to 12 oclock! What do you see! bang bang!

Fundamentals man!  


I think that was lesson #8  :)



JUGgler



crap I'm sorry I just realized you said in the "merge."     I was thinking same direction one above the other, the lower having the "behind" advantage.     :frown:
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: SlapShot on February 25, 2011, 04:09:01 PM


crap I'm sorry I just realized you said in the "merge."

Bingo !!!

I also said ... "There is 100 ft of vertical separation between us at the merge and we are traveling at the same speed ... equal E."

Glad you see it now ... I love guys who ask and are willing to learn and listen.

 :salute
Title: Re: DYING DYING Dying in the MA
Post by: VAMPIRE 2? on February 25, 2011, 04:13:23 PM
Bingo !!!

I also said ... "There is 100 ft of vertical separation between us at the merge and we are traveling at the same speed ... equal E."

Glad you see it now ... I love guys who ask and are willing to learn and listen.

 :salute

thank you for noticing I'm hear to listen and rid my ignorance to acm.  :aok