Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PFactorDave on March 11, 2011, 02:05:53 PM
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Lately, I feel like I have reached a new level in my flying. Something has clicked and I am having more success then before. I still have a very long way to go and grow, but thinking back, it occurs to me that there have been some specific "Epiphany moments" in my Aces High career.
There have been other discussions here on the Forums, some people suggesting that the newer pilots aren't progressing past early the early stages. The old, all they do is HO argument. While I don't think I agree that newer players have no desire to get better, I think it might be worth a discussion.
What are the specific stages of progression? And would it be worth trying to focus newer pilots on specific skills in a specific order to help them to improve?
For me, I can trace my progression in a few stages. At each step, a noticeable improvement in success.
When I first started Aces High, I had a little sim experience (mostly IL2), as well as some real world flight experience (mostly Cessna 152s and a Piper "Traumahawk"). So, basic flight came easily. Takeoffs and landings were no problem. Most stalls were pretty easy to recover from. Using coordinated rudder was nothing new to me. Etc.
- My first big step was when I was taught that adding a vertical component to a turn was far better then a simple yank and bank flat turn. I started getting more kills, and occaisionally survived to land them. And yes, at the time, getting the "name in lights" was an accomplishment I worked toward. But that's an entirely different discussion.
- My second epiphany moment of improvement was after learning some basic throttle work.
- The third leap forward, I think, was when I started to actively learn the abilities of various aircraft and started to try to fly to my aircraft's strengths and, when possible, my opponents' weaknesses.
- Learning the difference between lead, lag, and pure pursuit and how they can be employed. Getting outside the plane, so to speak.
- The most recent step (and I certainly have left some steps out of this post so far) has been that I am starting to see and recognize what my opponent is trying to do as he is doing it. I'm just on the beginning edges of this, I think, but there are definitely things I am seeing going on that I didn't realize were going on before. A whole new level of judging E states and using them.
So, all that aside, I am curious what you feel your "Epiphany moment(s)" were, and possibly which specific skills might be best taught to the new guys as soon as they are interested enough to listen and learn?
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So, all that aside, I am curious what you feel your "Epiphany moment(s)" were, and possibly which specific skills might be best taught to the new guys as soon as they are interested enough to listen and learn?
For me it was clearly the day I read HR's post on the old AOL Airwarrior board about learning to fly while looking out the back. I wish I'd saved it, but I didn't. Paraphrased, it went something like this:
Most people fly along watching the instrument panel, taking quick looks behind them at the enemy icon, then looking back at the instrument panel to see where they're going and how fast, then looking back at the enemy plane again. This is wrong. You have to learn how to fly the plane while you constantly keep your view on the enemy plane. This takes lots of practice.
- oldman
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There have been other discussions here on the Forums, some people suggesting that the newer pilots aren't progressing past early the early stages. The old, all they do is HO argument. While I don't think I agree that newer players have no desire to get better, I think it might be worth a discussion.
I don't think it's "they have no desire...." I think it's more along the lines of they don't know what else is out there. They are having success with what they are doing, but don't realize they with a little effort they could be doing sooooooo much better.
As for "epiphany's" There are so many when you progress as slowly as I did, and still do :D
It started out with little things like learning not to blow all my "E" on the first pass. Learning to be easy on the stick to save even more "E". Learning to fly the plane looking out ANY window but the front one. Learning to fly to where my target is GOING to be when I'm ready to shoot. As you hit each epiphany, when that light bulb goes off in your head your blinded by the light from it and you spend the next few days saying "how could I have been so dumb as to NOT see that!"
Thats what makes this game so great to me. There is ALWAYS something new to learn, if you only take the time to learn it.
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I don't think it's "they have no desire...." I think it's more along the lines of they don't know what else is out there. They are having success with what they are doing, but don't realize they with a little effort they could be doing sooooooo much better.
I agree, and I would extend that to as long as there is no incentive to encourage them to get better why should they? When I started back in 2008 (not too long ago), the incentive came from the community, people were more 'aggressive' via negative reinforcement to encourage others to get better. I personally feel that if there were some game mechanics put in place that were more of a 'positive' reinforcement to encourage people to get better, that would work. I also think that what we are seeing today is a reaction to the community's attempt in the past to encourage people to get better via that 'negative' reinforcement method.
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I agree, and I would extend that to as long as there is no incentive to encourage them to get better why should they? When I started back in 2008 (not too long ago), the incentive came from the community, people were more 'aggressive' via negative reinforcement to encourage others to get better. I personally feel that if there were some game mechanics put in place that were more of a 'positive' reinforcement to encourage people to get better, that would work. I also think that what we are seeing today is a reaction to the community's attempt in the past to encourage people to get better via that 'negative' reinforcement method.
I would tend to agree with that. Abusing me on 200 isn't going to make me want to listen to anything you have to say. I'll just squelch you. Then I will hear nothing that you have to say.
I, also, would like to see some form of positive training. Personally, I think there needs to be a commitment made by squads to take a few new guys in to teach them the basics. There are too many squads that consider themselves to be too good to invite a new guy to join. They require a certain k/d ration to even be considered. So, what is the end result? The new guys get recruited by the squads who are looking to fill slots in their missions. The new guys are eager to join, because they feel flattered to be invited, and nobody else is asking. What do they learn? Well, they learn the mechanics of over running a base. This was my experience. I was invited to join Rolling Thunder when I was just past my two week trial. I learned how to fly NOE. I learned how to take a town down with 110s or 190s. I learned how to pork ords or troops. Learning the game mechanics is a good thing, but nobody should be surprised that base taking becomes the focus for many of the new players. I didn't learn ACM from RT when I joined, I had to seek that out elsewhere. I am still a member of RT, but RT has changed considerably from what it was when I joined.
I believe that the squads that are more interested in ACM and wingman tactics etc need to make an effort to get as many new guys into a more ACM centered enviroment as soon as possible. But, unfortunately, I also believe that HTC will have to invent a way to motivate squads to do this. They, for the most part, won't do it on their own.
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What are the specific stages of progression?
Using coordinated rudder was nothing new to me. Etc.
- My first big step was when I was taught that adding a vertical component to a turn was far better then a simple yank and bank flat turn.
- My second epiphany moment of improvement was after learning some basic throttle work.
- The third leap forward, I think, was when I started to actively learn the abilities of various aircraft and started to try to fly to my aircraft's strengths and, when possible, my opponents' weaknesses.
- Learning the difference between lead, lag, and pure pursuit and how they can be employed. Getting outside the plane, so to speak. <<<MANEUVERS
A whole new level of judging E states and using them.
So, all that aside, I am curious what you feel your "Epiphany moment(s)" were, and possibly which specific skills might be best taught to the new guys as soon as they are interested enough to listen and learn?
Started AW 94 learned how to adjust my sidewider, great stick at the time BTW
Learned to shoot with smoother control because of it.
Learned maneuvers and read many articles...realized I was being rope a doped a lot.
Learned E states
Learned rudder control and effects in maneuvers..hammerhead, split S ect.
NEVER RAN FROM FIGHTS
Could not progress from that point but was good enough to have lots of fun and complain to self when i got killed.
Reviewed fights in my head.
AW ended and Aces high started:
Bought NEW STICK as old one was holding me back. Not enough control. CH PRODUCTS FULL SET UP USED for $130 HUGE DIFFERENCE
Learned to set stick up using combination of Lepherns <(?) set up and a few others.
Gave up my Spit, LA and F6 and Learned every plane>>> FLEW every plane even though I did not like most of them. Learned Strength/Weaknesses
Figured out when they come toward you and turn left...you turn right.
Practice shooting ONLY when I knew I was going to hit something.
Learned when being chased by a bandit 1.5 out I had the advantage
Still flying around near full throt most of the time. LEARNED REAL THROT CONTROL and went from 200+ kills a month to 500+....sometimes less power is better.
Flew nearly every plane well except some German and P-40... never mastered any of them always knew i was beatable and never cocky.
Learned maneuvers all over again applied all information and could kill up to 5 to 1 nubes with spit FM2....could kill most vets, not nearly all....called cheater repeatedly, turned 200 off for nearly a year.
From beginning to end I was always a base taker. Using Ordnance was my specialty. Could de-ack a field by myself in 4 passes when feeling concentrated and lucky.
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NEVER RAN FROM FIGHTS
When I came over from AWIII I tried to bring as many of my squad as I could. I spent hours and hours figuring things out that were different between the two games and then posted my findings on the squad site. (I still have all that info for that site :D ) I figured if I did that "work" of learning whats new and then explaining it in an easy to understand format of my experiences that the squad could find that info and read up on it easier that way.
The biggest thing I tried to point out to them was the quote above. I told them if you screwed up, and the guys going to get you, why run? Now's the best time to try some of that "pilot crap" after all your all but dead any way! All running teaches you is which plane dives best and which is fastest. Learning how to turn the tables on a guy that has you in his sites is going to come in a bit more "handy" down the road.
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True Fugitive. :aok
Never Running from fights is not completely true.
Some of my most hair raising and adrenaline filled flights were trying to make it home with No Fuel, Ammo, major missing parts (1/2 wing, no rudder, both ailerons) Pilot Wound and a handful of kills.....has to be 3 or more. No reason to go home otherwise since it got me in the air quicker..just fight till dead, dead, dead. Ditch on pilot wounds and rob your furballer of a kill if you can get far enough.
It's a whole nother aspect of the game I really loved and takes plenty of brains to survive. I'd be gripping that stick so hard that once I let go my hand would be hurting. :joystick:
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahlogo-1.jpg)
FM-2 gets 12
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss35.jpg)
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The thing that helped me the most was just dueling, whether it was against top pilots or just anybody. In a duel, any advantages that you might have used to hide your ACM weaknesses are gone (advantages like altitude, numbers, plane choice etc).
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I started rollin the FATTY and found a new fun for the game.
I think that the average "ability" of the community has increased since a couple years ago. Although sadly with that increase of ability has come an increased desire NOT to lose. Now sooooooooooooo many good sticks flys to the lowest common denominator ie: hordes, cherryfests, picking, picking, picking, Their complete disdain for being sent to the tower has stripped the "carefree play" from many of them. It has become to serious and to damaging to many a peeps ego that they have settled for being better but still being motivated by the intense "fear" (fear may not be the best word, maybe embarrasment is better) of being shot down.
There is a BIG difference in "playing to win" or "playing not to lose" you can win either way But I suspect those playing not to lose have waaaaay more ego invested than the the peep who is playing to WIN! Tower time matters less to those who play to win IMO.
If you want higher quality fights then fly that way yourself. Believe it or not most "quality" sticks in an area know which cons are tarding the place up and which are trying to "get there fight on" If it is seen that there is a con or 3 that is not just picking everything in sight and basically looking for an actual contest, I guarantee someone will come to you for that contest with advantage or not! With that said one way to insure a miserable night in AH to to stink an area up with tardism and every good stick in that area will be looking for you !! You will have a rough gaming experience for that session indeed :rock
For me it is all about talkin the talk AND walkin the walk :aok
Oh and improving your scores ofcourse :)
JUGgler
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Early days for me, (since december.) The best thing I did was try the Brewster in the red cloud above my country's bases. It helped my hat switch ability very much. Getting killed is no big deal as you reup right into the cloud, also it is perversly easier to stay alive as the attention spans are short. This was also where I realized that I should move in more than one plane and got a better sense of rolling. I've gone back to the spit8 now as it has more speed and the fragility is less of a penalty.
Gunnery: my gunnery sucks but it is a little better now that I have turned off tracers and aim then shoot a couple rounds and look for flashes, less spraying more deliberate.
I started thinking about the other planes and how I should fight them, I do better against pilots of my ability when they are flying a different plane, I am a little clearer on how I should fight them then when I am against another spit8.
Flying against 3 other lousy pilots I will get killed but it will take a little while and I am beginning to see how to structure a fight, who to try to take out, who to ignore for right now, how to try to snatch some E. This is probably the most enjoyable kind of fight for me right now.
What I need now is probably a lot of 1v1 with opponents of slightly better or the same ability as me in the same aircraft. I need to learn how to see what lies beyond the next turn. As it is I don't really know and am just reacting and not planning. The thing that slows the learning down IMO is the fighting to taking off and flying to the fight ratio that is so bad when you are just starting out. If there was a way to structure some fights in leagues or something it might help with that. For me it has been a pretty steep curve or threshold to cross just to begin to be able to learn. If you had a dweeb plane that was a spit 8 but virtually bulletproof and with only 30 cal. guns, (but with the ballistics of hispano's,) that only beginners could fly it might make that initial threshold easier to cross.
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I came to AH2 with a fair bit of real and flight sim experience like the OP, so the basics were always intuitive. The real epiphany moment in combat for me was to use extention offensivly. A lot of nwer pilots i think ae too agressive in trying to always get their nos on you with little regard for energy states, distances, and angles. Especially in a the verticle, they will pull and pull and pull through the stall to get that shot and most of the time its better to conserve e and postion yourself for a kill in a more macro sense. In a way, it was realising that everything is in motion I guess. . .
i still pull too much sometimes, especially in a scissors - but sometimes being patient and forcing your opponent to come to you can really pay off.
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Lately, I feel like I have reached a new level in my flying. Something has clicked and I am having more success then before. I still have a very long way to go and grow, but thinking back, it occurs to me that there have been some specific "Epiphany moments" in my Aces High career.
There have been other discussions here on the Forums, some people suggesting that the newer pilots aren't progressing past early the early stages. The old, all they do is HO argument. While I don't think I agree that newer players have no desire to get better, I think it might be worth a discussion.
What are the specific stages of progression? And would it be worth trying to focus newer pilots on specific skills in a specific order to help them to improve?
For me, I can trace my progression in a few stages. At each step, a noticeable improvement in success.
When I first started Aces High, I had a little sim experience (mostly IL2), as well as some real world flight experience (mostly Cessna 152s and a Piper "Traumahawk"). So, basic flight came easily. Takeoffs and landings were no problem. Most stalls were pretty easy to recover from. Using coordinated rudder was nothing new to me. Etc.
- My first big step was when I was taught that adding a vertical component to a turn was far better then a simple yank and bank flat turn. I started getting more kills, and occaisionally survived to land them. And yes, at the time, getting the "name in lights" was an accomplishment I worked toward. But that's an entirely different discussion.
- My second epiphany moment of improvement was after learning some basic throttle work.
- The third leap forward, I think, was when I started to actively learn the abilities of various aircraft and started to try to fly to my aircraft's strengths and, when possible, my opponents' weaknesses.
- Learning the difference between lead, lag, and pure pursuit and how they can be employed. Getting outside the plane, so to speak.
- The most recent step (and I certainly have left some steps out of this post so far) has been that I am starting to see and recognize what my opponent is trying to do as he is doing it. I'm just on the beginning edges of this, I think, but there are definitely things I am seeing going on that I didn't realize were going on before. A whole new level of judging E states and using them.
So, all that aside, I am curious what you feel your "Epiphany moment(s)" were, and possibly which specific skills might be best taught to the new guys as soon as they are interested enough to listen and learn?
Everything you just said Factor but I'll add one more.. it has to do with SA. The day that I was able to pick a victim out of may red icons to go after and successfully kill. The day where I was able to identify the red icon which was the most threat to me in a crowd of red. The day where I knew enough about the plane set and it's modeling to know when to play, fold'em or run.
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i can fly while looking at the enemy, its just the trees dont like that and they knock me done :bhead
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When I decided (after my third month in-game) that score and rank are meaningless and stopped playing for score and rank. :aok
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I have been into flight sims since my first Atari 400 (about 30 years..gulp!) and playing online flight sims since AW on GEnie. For me there were two "ah ha" moments with regards to online sims.
#1 was the time I suddenly "got" the flight physics of my targets. When I started using a hat switch it seemed that every time a target flew off the screen there was a slight sense of panic (A/I controlled targets did not provide the same unpredictability). Suddenly one flight everything just clicked. When a target flew off of the screen I could point into space around me to where the target was without flipping to a hat view.
#2 after flying ALL the fighters available in AW I found one that just "clicked" with me (A6M5). Of all the aircraft available in AW I was the least interested in the Japanese rides and as such they were the last ones I tried. Something about the feel of the aircraft just worked for me.
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NEVER RAN FROM FIGHTS
When I first started in Aces High, I used to simply dive into a furball, or try to take out various Base targets (i.e. ord, DAR, fuel), without regard to whether I was shot down, or not; after all, the F4U Corsair was designed for this purpose, wasn't it? I had fun!
Then I learned about the scoring system and how to get my score low enough to take control of a CV! Corsairs flew from CV's, don'tcha know! :lol
I had fun, for awhile, until obtaining score began to make flying miserable! Gosh! You have to make sure you get certain scores in various aspects of the game...and before I knew it...I'd become obsessed with score and became an unpleasant Wingman within my Squad: they just wanted to have fun!
So, where am I going with this? Well, many have posted several of the epiphanies that I have also experienced over the years, and if you stay with Aces High long enough you will experience them all. But, the most recent epiphany for me, and probably the most important one for me, is to pick my own fight and on my own terms in the aircraft I am flying. I will fight until I win, or lose, but, on MY TERMS in that aircraft.
However! If the terms change, and they are not mine, and I see a possible exit from the fight, I will take it and re-evaluate. This is not RUNNING FROM A FIGHT! I may choose to re-engage, or not. And, this to me is the epiphany...knowing the difference.
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However! If the terms change, and they are not mine, and I see a possible exit from the fight, I will take it and re-evaluate. This is not RUNNING FROM A FIGHT! I may choose to re-engage, or not. And, this to me is the epiphany...knowing the difference.
Not bad if your a lone wolf picker unwilling to advance past high alt B&Z attacks while ignoring calls by your comrades for help in the name of self preservation.
This is just a game not life and death. Here you have an infinite amount of lives to use for the advancement of your skills. You will find enlightenment not by trying to escape your problems, but by confronting them courageously I believe i once heard.
I think some are in denial of their gameplay form saying I am good because I learned how to survive instead of I'm good because I can stand my ground against anyone even when the odds are against me.
A response to this could be “It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept.”
Running from a fight can be of use at times no doubt but putting all your efforts into trying to master it will keep you from obtaining the skill and respect some look for in this game. Believe it or not it can also be used as part of a life lesson. Some may even say that the way you play certain games is the way you live your life out side of it. A reflection of your inner self lets say whether the willingness to advance, Level of aggressiveness to take risks or cautionary fear that surely leads to complacency.
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But, the most recent epiphany for me, and probably the most important one for me, is to pick my own fight and on my own terms in the aircraft I am flying. I will fight until I win, or lose, but, on MY TERMS in that aircraft.
I think that's the key. Ignore the incessant BS and play the game you want to play. :aok
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However! If the terms change, and they are not mine, and I see a possible exit from the fight, I will take it and re-evaluate. This is not RUNNING FROM A FIGHT! I may choose to re-engage, or not. And, this to me is the epiphany...knowing the difference.
I look at it this way, pretend it's like playing poker. People like you look at their hand and see they don't have much so they fold. People like me look at it and say, "Lets see what I can make of this!".
You only play hands you think you have a good chance to win, where as other players push the limits and play alot more hands. Also, while I'm "pushing the envelope" I'm also making the game more fun for the other guy too. Giving him a fight instead of "resetting the fight" or what ever you call it.
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I would say that the biggest epiphany is getting inside your opponent's head and figuring out how he/she is figuring the fight and being able to predict how they will react.
Next one after that is doing it for multiple opponents.
Next one after that is seeing that the vast majority of human beings think along similar paths and how you can group bogies together by the way they are behaving. Kill the killers first and the rest are just waiting for their turn.
Not that it always works that way but you did say epiphanies :) An epiphany (from the ancient Greek "ἐπιφάνεια", epiphaneia, “manifestation, striking appearance”) is the sudden realization or comprehension of the (larger) essence or meaning of something
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I would say that the biggest epiphany is getting inside your opponent's head and figuring out how he/she is figuring the fight and being able to predict how they will react.
Next one after that is doing it for multiple opponents.
Next one after that is seeing that the vast majority of human beings think along similar paths and how you can group bogies together by the way they are behaving. Kill the killers first and the rest are just waiting for their turn.
Not that it always works that way but you did say epiphanies :)
You got that right, just like my "location" states. :aok :old: :joystick: :airplane: :ahand
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Not bad if your a lone wolf picker unwilling to advance past high alt B&Z attacks while ignoring calls by your comrades for help in the name of self preservation.
This is just a game not life and death. Here you have an infinite amount of lives to use for the advancement of your skills. You will find enlightenment not by trying to escape your problems, but by confronting them courageously I believe i once heard.
I think some are in denial of their gameplay form saying I am good because I learned how to survive instead of I'm good because I can stand my ground against anyone even when the odds are against me.
A response to this could be “It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept.”
Running from a fight can be of use at times no doubt but putting all your efforts into trying to master it will keep you from obtaining the skill and respect some look for in this game. Believe it or not it can also be used as part of a life lesson. Some may even say that the way you play certain games is the way you live your life out side of it. A reflection of your inner self lets say whether the willingness to advance, Level of aggressiveness to take risks or cautionary fear that surely leads to complacency.
I look at it this way, pretend it's like playing poker. People like you look at their hand and see they don't have much so they fold. People like me look at it and say, "Lets see what I can make of this!".
You only play hands you think you have a good chance to win, where as other players push the limits and play alot more hands. Also, while I'm "pushing the envelope" I'm also making the game more fun for the other guy too. Giving him a fight instead of "resetting the fight" or what ever you call it.
Gents,
This thread asked for an epiphany and I gave one.
That you choose to not recognize the difference between selecting your fight in the aircraft you are flying and fly it to its characteristics, and the opportunity to exit a fight and re-evaluate your situation in the aircraft you are flying and whether to re-engage or not, suggests to me that you are not posting here to help new folks, but rather, to advance your own style of game play.
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When I decided (after my third month in-game) that score and rank are meaningless and stopped playing for score and rank. :aok
Well said! Dido! :salute
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I look at it this way, pretend it's like playing poker. People like you look at their hand and see they don't have much so they fold. People like me look at it and say, "Lets see what I can make of this!".
You only play hands you think you have a good chance to win, where as other players push the limits and play alot more hands.
Also, while I'm "pushing the envelope" I'm also making the game more fun for the other guy too. Giving him a fight instead of "resetting the fight" or what ever you call it.
I think the above was well said also.
Score and rank come naturally and becomes unavoidable as you begin to progress and explore all the different aspects of the game Hitech creations offers it's players. It's not for everyone but for me being a jack of all trades within the game gave me the most satisfaction and curbed repetition and boredom.