Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: PuppetZ on March 12, 2011, 12:26:02 PM
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Ok figure im diving shallow on an opponent 6 at the beginning of an engagement. He will turn to keep me from getting an easy gun solution. At what moment of the opponent turn should I begin mine. As soon as I see him, when he gets out of my front windscreen? And should I follow him pure pursuit or lag?? I seem to always end up with very hard (read impossible) snapshot with him going 90 degree across my nose. I get the feeling I turn too early or too hard or both. I tried easing the turn and truning laterr and a combination of the 2. Then after a few turn I get my :ahand to me altough I'm flying the(supposedly) better turner(N1K2) of the 2. Just the other night I've bee (b)eaten in a flat turn(was near the gnd and we were rather slow) by a p-38. We turned into each other and in just about 2 circle he was right behind and I was eating lead to fast for my liver to eliminate. I really wanna get good at this but it seem i'm missing something... any toughts...
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Hello PuppetZ,
check out Badboy's thread on the Barrel Roll Defense Maneuver....
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173151.0.html
read it entirely ( also wait for the avi film to load completely )
lots of valuable information in this thread talking about "Turn Circle Entry Window" , Lead / Pure / Lag Pursuit , etc....
it is hard to ffer much more with out a film...... every situation is completely different and will call for a certian maneuvers , it is not easy to provide suggestions on generic questions...... plane types, speed, alt, etc. all come into play
hope this helps......
TC
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My guess is that you're missing the energy part of the equation. It's not all about turning tighter. One way for the P38 to win the fight for example is to conserve energy better than you, then translate it (with the help of its flaps) into an angles advantage. As time goes on, if the 38 does NOT build an energy advantage, then naturally you will gain on it and get behind.
I've actually used this trick in symmetric 1v1 (i.e. 109k vs 109k) where both planes are locked in a turn and neither is gaining. In order to break the stalemate, I go into a shallow climb, tightening my turn radius and denying my opponent a shot while at the same time gaining energy which I later cash in to get angles.
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I suggest you film and post films for comment. There's really too many variables; E states, plane match-ups, E management, flaps use etc. to generalize. Using lag, pure or lead pursuit will vary depending on these factors and also your willingness to put yourself into a potentially dangerous position to get a shot.
On the suface it sounds like recognition of E states and E management are haunting you.
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Nay the 'incident' with the 38 was merely chit-chat ;) My main problem is explained in detail in the thread TC so kindly linked me to. In the discussion about turn entry window and lead/pure/lag pursuit. What I do wrong most of the time is i tend to turn on them (as in pure pursuit) instead of behind them like in lag pursuit. I need to just stay behind the cons and I will wear him out and reel him in eventually. But I tend to go straight for them with the gun piper on or very close behind my opponent plane as so well illustrated in the reply #21
In that film you will notice that the attacker uses pure pursuit to track the bandit. It’s what is known as Gunsight BFM, and it feels natural for inexperienced pilots to keep their gun sight on the target, unfortunately it is almost the worst thing to do.
The problem is as the range decreases, the g load required increases to the extent that pure pursuit becomes an impossible curve to follow if you are much faster than your opponent. If you try, the load required to maintain the pursuit curve quickly exceeds the 6g blackout limit. So in a high speed attack, against a slower opponent who executes a break turn, as was the case here, a pure pursuit curve will always lead to a flight path overshoot if the attacker attempts to track the bandit throughout the attack. A lead pursuit curve may have been slightly better, because that involves pulling more G than necessary earlier in the turn, which means that less g is necessary later in the turn when it may even have been possible to unload for the snap shot. However, those are both weak options because at best they only offer a difficult high aspect deflection shot and that comes with the certainty of a flight path overshoot, and considerable risk of a 3-9 line overshoot.
well that sums it up quite nicely now to apply it ... see you in the air gentlemen :airplane:
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I usually don't try to pull for a guns solution when an opponent does what you are describing. I like to either pull up into kind of a high yo yo or do a lag roll to get back on his 6 o'clock. Both manuevers can be used to get/stay on his 6 without scrubbing off the energy of trying to pull for a quick guns solution.
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Boomerlu is correct in mho. The toughest guttiest thing you need to learn is e management or throttle control. Pfactor is also correct but the real reason is for the yo-yo is e-management. When I see someone gliding towards me I know the chance of an overshoot is greatly reduced and I'm probably dead. Most players seem to just go full throttle all the time. That is no good against the good players. You have to match e and have the timing down pat. I'd rather enter to slow than too fast. If too slow they may runaway but too fast and you nose past them. They get the shot and many giggles.
I'm still working on throttle control after all these years. Throttle control makes the plane fly smoother. Rudders work more effectively and you don't overshoot as much. It takes nerves to learn it. So often we think full throttle stay fast, live longer. Not always true.
In those situations where the guy goes 90 degrees under your nose you have to pull and do one of 2 things depending on plane and e. You can nose up, chop throttle and hit hard rudder. You can also loop over. Remember this, if he banked hard he just killed a bunch of e. If it is a good pilot he may scissors instead of banking hard or even do a barrel roll. There is just so many factors to consider as baldegle said. Takes time to learn.
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Film everything, keep the films in which you die. then review the film and see what the other guy did and how he configured his plan , speed, things like that. You can learn a lot by watching your mistakes. The film viewer is not perfect but a very useful tool .
check out a Navy training film on the barrel roll , do a search on youtube it's form the late 40's. It's also available on the wiki page for the 113th Lucky Strikes
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PuppetZ, I think I understand your situation, which is a stage that everyone goes through. To your specific question the real answer would be that there are way too many options to go through one by one, but that will not be very helpful.
Basically, in the situation you describe there are two main paths you can choose - one is to go for the snap shot and extend, the other is to completely give up the shot and try to reposition. What ever you choose to do, and this is the critical part, you have to choose early and follow through with it.
Going for the snap shot means that you will loose your advantageous position on his 6. When you spot which side he breaks to, immediately pull LEAD - do not fly after him, fly to the future point where you will get to shoot him. It usually looks like a quick pull and unloading, taking a snap shot and extending thus utilizing your speed to get away for another pass / lag displacement roll, or any other option. This is what an "E" fighter would tend to choose.
Going for reposition means that once you spot his evasive, you forget about the shot attempt - COMPLETELY. Concentrate on flying the plane. You'd want to do some "out of plane" maneuver (and against what it sounds like to me, you do not actually go out of the plane. That is crazy), hi yo-yo, lag displacement roll, etc. and go for a lag pursuit - you are currently too fast and thus your turning circle is almost certainly larger than his, no matter if you are in a N1k and he is in a P-38. First outfly him, only them think about your guns. If you are the better turning plane you will wear him down quickly, but only when the speed get low enough so that non of you can pull into a black out will you start to feel the difference. Even then remember the key thing: Planes almost never fly on the same circle, so do not think in terms of "my turn rate vs. his turn rate" - it rarely work this way.
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Something i do often is a lag roll. I'm coming in on the 6 of a bandit and he turns left. I'll pull up and barrel roll to the right. If done correctly, i am now back on his 6. Sometimes, if I'm feeling confident, I'll chop a little throttle and burn a little E so i don't overshoot.
A demonstration of what i'm alking about can be seen at about 1:30 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaDl7psdMNY&feature=related
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I fly cannon birds I try to ram people
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what i do, is to fly past em, and then throw big aluminum parts at em. if that doesn't work, i throw a spikey heel at em..... :noid
:rofl
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Should I begin with my high yoyo as soon as the bandit start his turn or should I wait for that "turn entry window"?
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You fly to the entry window, you don't wait for it. If the bandit breaks left let him fly to your 10 o'clock position then roll your lift vector on the bandit and pull hard to turn into him, then assess your position and speed. If you need to get closer fly lead pursuit until you get the range you want then switch to lag pursuit if you want to saddle up. If you're still a little fast after your hard turn into the bandit just fly lag to avoid overshooting.
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Right! :salute
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Here is something I do when I'm in your situation. Shallow dive, on his six and he starts to turn:
1. I really start observing at about 1.5 to 2.0 K out. At this point, I try to estimate his E state very carefully. If I'm gaining on him fast, I make my dive even shallower till I get about 1K out. If not, I continue with that dive. At about 1K, most guys will already start to pull. Here's where you will run into two type of pilots. The first will pull hard into you, trying to get his nose back around on you as fast as possible. The kind of pilot will pull a gentle turn at first and then tighten as you get closer. The latter of the two is the one I worry more about.
2. In the case of the first scenario, I will go to the vertical and see if he's willing to go with me (set up for a rope). If he does not, I either wing over or loop back over trying to get directly above him. In this position, I can get my lift vector in any direction really fast as all it takes is an A-Roll vs. turning with elevators. I then dive for the shot.
3. In the case of the second scenario.. well it gets tricky. I usually do a tight lag roll opposite his turn and keep lag pursuit. This will buy me more time and allow me to observe what he is doing. I want him to show me his hand. Some guys will break out of the turn and try to extend. Some guys will take it to the vertical and wait to see what I'm going to do. Some guys will continue a slow turn and wait for me to commit. Either way, there is a point of no return where I'm going to have to commit to the shot (at this moment, the danger for me is almost as great as the danger for him because depending on what happens, he can reverse very quickly and I'll be in trouble). For me, the trick is to set up a shot that has the most probability of landing hits. Again, in the end, I try to get myself directly above him where my speed may be equal to his but my total E is greater than his since I have altitude I can cash in for speed.
For me, the objective is to be as close as possible to him with greater energy before he initiates a defensive maneuver so that he will have less time to react and thus fewer options. This translates into a gun solution which has a higher probability of hits. When you are merging (I consider approaching him from the rear a merge also... after all, your two planes are merging) from 2+ K away, he has a lot of time to set up a defense and observe you. If the merge starts with (lead turn) at less than 1.5 or 1K, he has almost no time to react effectively and my guns solution will have a higher probability of hits.
Sorry if this isn't very clear but its my best attempt to describe what I would do. I guess a film would be better.
BTW, the most dangerous defenders are the guys who let you in close, present what looks like an easy kill, make you commit to a shot and then pull a vertical maneuver taking you completely out of phase, then getting his guns back around on you fast for a shot. I've been killed like this many times. If you encounter one of these guys, you know you just fought someone who has great SA, great ability to judge E state, great gunnery and great timing. Hate those guys :furious
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what is ment by "turn entry window".
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what is ment by "turn entry window".
It's the point inside the defenders turn circle where you initiate your offensive break turn to fly to the defender's 6 o'clock position.
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is that synonomous with "flying to the elbow".
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is that synonomous with "flying to yhe elbow".
It can be depending on whether you're flying for position and/or Energy or going for a gun solution/shot. Flying to the elbow implies a lag pursuit to achieve position at the targets high six. Think of using you're hands to describe combat maneuvering, if you "fly" to the elbow you're in position behind the other hand.
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is that synonomous with "flying to the elbow".
If the elbow is the control position on the bandit's high 6 then the entry window is the point where you turn to fly to the elbow.
Like Soulyss I think of flying to the elbow as flying lag pursuit. It may have the other meaning also.
So my answer is no, it's not synonymous. The entry window's position is defined by the center of the turn circle and the position of the bandit in the turn circle. It's not the same as being saddled up in the control position on the bandit's high 6.
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is there a drawing or film to illustrate this concept. I think either shaw or andy bush has some illustrations on this
but shaw is hard to follow sometimes.
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There's an illustration on page 2 of this thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173151.15.html
The entry window extends from just inside the turn circle (as shown in the illustration) to near the center of the turn circle opposite the bandit. The turn circle is defined by the turn radius of the bandit. The hard turn into the bandit slows your closure rate and turning behind the center of the circle gives you good angles off the tail of the bandit.
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(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Pursuit.gif)
Link to Badboy's reply discussing the above pic:
CLICK ON TO REVIEW REPLY#21 postd by Badboy
Note: The pic and link above are from a previous topic discussing "Barrel Roll Defense", but is a great read with some valuable insight to other information regarding Yo-Yo's, Scissoring, Pursuit modes, etc......
hope this helps
TC