Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Chilli on March 19, 2011, 04:13:24 AM
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Reading about why the LW Split Arena is necessary, I went back to my age old question for HTC. What exactly were Early War and Mid War Arenas supposed to offer?
If either of these new arenas offered a popular alternative for the Late War Main Arena, a reasonable arena cap might not have become a problem.
Other possible alternatives, Pacific Theater, European Theater, Eastern Front, Tank Town ...( no aces High).
:uhoh Okay, after the flames die down. I support all of those who currently have made EW and MW their homes. I just want to ask them these questions: What attracts you to them? Is it plane set limits or lower numbers? What would attract larger numbers to either?
Basically, since the latest cap change to 80%, I am thinking that, if the other 2 main arenas were to hold there share of players, Late War would not need the extra arena.
How much fun would it be for squads to rotate from Early, then Mid and finally to Late War?
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Spoken like someone who has never read the Rolling Planeset threads. I'd rather skip the wailing and drama
caused by forcing someone to do something they don't want to do.
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My first year was basically in the AVA, there were basically 3 main squads there, 353rd FG, JG11 and JG54. numbers were usually in the 20 to 30 range and it was very personal. It had a rolling plane set (EW<MW<LW)where the winners of that time period got a advantage in picking the next plane set. Also has some campaign setups that were fun. When the AVA went really downhill numbers wise I tried LW and didn't really like the large crowd. Tried EW/MW and have been happy there since. Would like to see the numbers in EW more in the 20 to 50 range in though.
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I am not asking to force anyone to :headscratch: do anything ;)
I am asking are there alternative arena options that would lighten the prime time Late War Main Arena's cap limits.
What is presently causing drama? Caps reducing arena options? Large squads dictating the game play options? Tactical squads reducing 1 on 1 dogfight options? Bomber dudes shutting down hangar / field options?
I am just posing the question if we would be better off with one arena where all of these can mix (current MA), and other alternative arenas that would have mass appeal to larger numbers than currently peek outside of the Late War Arenas.
The Dueling Arena is possibly a good example. Tactical squads could possibly have a preference to fly there (not forced to, but incentives to).
If the AI mission thing had developed, possibly that would have attracted enough bomber dudes and large squads geared at objective based game play.
WWI arena, has potential, its biggest drawbacks that I can see are the learning curve in flight characteristics and number of aircraft.
I am a huge advocate of all of the Special Events Arenas, but as long as the 2 weekers keep populating the Late war Main arenas with easy kills, HiTech is right to assume that the large percentage of his paying customers log in to the Arena with the largest number of players in it.
Flatiron,
In a round about way, I am asking for some incentives for the Late War Crowds to branch out and even out the Arenas. I really would not like to see any arena closed (other than maybe second Late war) just expanded enough to give very unique experience in each. To fly in an arena where numbers are low, just work nights like me, or live outside of the states.
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Reading about why the LW Split Arena is necessary, I went back to my age old question for HTC. What exactly were Early War and Mid War Arenas supposed to offer?
If either of these new arenas offered a popular alternative for the Late War Main Arena, a reasonable arena cap might not have become a problem.
Other possible alternatives, Pacific Theater, European Theater, Eastern Front, Tank Town ...( no aces High).
:uhoh Okay, after the flames die down. I support all of those who currently have made EW and MW their homes. I just want to ask them these questions: What attracts you to them? Is it plane set limits or lower numbers? What would attract larger numbers to either?
Basically, since the latest cap change to 80%, I am thinking that, if the other 2 main arenas were to hold there share of players, Late War would not need the extra arena.
How much fun would it be for squads to rotate from Early, then Mid and finally to Late War?
the early war and mid war arenas offer us a place to fight like aircraft, without having tiffies, runstangs, run90's, etc. doin what they do.
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I am not asking to force anyone to :headscratch: do anything ;)
I am asking are there alternative arena options that would lighten the prime time Late War Main Arena's cap limits.
What is presently causing drama? Caps reducing arena options? Large squads dictating the game play options? Tactical squads reducing 1 on 1 dogfight options? Bomber dudes shutting down hangar / field options?
I am just posing the question if we would be better off with one arena where all of these can mix (current MA), and other alternative arenas that would have mass appeal to larger numbers than currently peek outside of the Late War Arenas.
The Dueling Arena is possibly a good example. Tactical squads could possibly have a preference to fly there (not forced to, but incentives to).
If the AI mission thing had developed, possibly that would have attracted enough bomber dudes and large squads geared at objective based game play.
WWI arena, has potential, its biggest drawbacks that I can see are the learning curve in flight characteristics and number of aircraft.
I am a huge advocate of all of the Special Events Arenas, but as long as the 2 weekers keep populating the Late war Main arenas with easy kills, HiTech is right to assume that the large percentage of his paying customers log in to the Arena with the largest number of players in it.
Flatiron,
In a round about way, I am asking for some incentives for the Late War Crowds to branch out and even out the Arenas. I really would not like to see any arena closed (other than maybe second Late war) just expanded enough to give very unique experience in each. To fly in an arena where numbers are low, just work nights like me, or live outside of the states.
chilli....with or without caps, there's more options now, than there was before the split arenas.
lw1
lw2
mw
ew
sea1
sea2
sea3(i think?)
ww1
that's more than there was when i first joined. :aok
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chilli....with or without caps, there's more options now, than there was before the split arenas.
{snip}
that's more than there was when i first joined. :aok
Add one more cap1 :D
What I am asking is what do those like Flatiron, who populate the other arena options, think would encourage the numbers of players, currently playing in the Late war arenas, to shift their attention?
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Add one more cap1 :D
What I am asking is what do those like Flatiron, who populate the other arena options, think would encourage the numbers of players, currently playing in the Late war arenas, to shift their attention?
i delibretly left the AvA out///////// otherwise, someone would think i was trying to make this an AvA promo.....DOH!! dam!!
seriously, when i fly somewhere besides the ava, i go to midwar. generally good fights there.
the lw players won't go there, because then trheir high end rides would cost em moew perks than they do in the lw arenas, although there are some that truly enjoy the fight......and they'll come to mw sometimes.
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I am asking are there alternative arena options that would lighten the prime time Late War Main Arena's cap limits.
I see what your asking, and I can't think of anything that would entice died-in-the-wool LW players to come to the other arenas.
There is a large mindset that if you are not playing in the LW arenas, then you really aren't playing. They also consider players who make the other arenas their home, not as skilled as LW players ... they are somewhat of a "lesser" pilot and play in these arenas because they can't handle the "uber" sticks of the LW arenas.
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Okay Cap1, you just gave me an idea. If perks awarded in EW and MW could be spent in LW, maybe we would have more interest from the LW crowd, looking to perk farm enuf points quickly to fly B29s or Me262s. This would also mean that the perk system in both would need to be adjusted to further interest the LW players... Countries with lower numbers will receive huge perk values for successful sorties.
Slapshot,
I am not so sure that many feel that way. In fact, a number of early and mid war planes pwnd in the LW. I fly the F4U 1 not even the 1A :neener: It can hang with any uber ride you wanna throw at it. Just yesterday, it took out one engine of a 262 and chased down a 190 A8, and La7. I also learned how dangerous the P47D11 could be from N72 years ago in the AvA (notice my signature).
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Okay Cap1, you just gave me an idea. If perks awarded in EW and MW could be spent in LW, maybe we would have more interest from the LW crowd, looking to perk farm enuf points quickly to fly B29s or Me262s. This would also mean that the perk system in both would need to be adjusted to further interest the LW players... Countries with lower numbers will receive huge perk values for successful sorties.
Slapshot,
I am not so sure that many feel that way. In fact, a number of early and mid war planes pwnd in the LW. I fly the F4U 1 not even the 1A :neener: It can hang with any uber ride you wanna throw at it. Just yesterday, it took out one engine of a 262 and chased down a 190 A8, and La7. I also learned how dangerous the P47D11 could be from N72 years ago in the AvA (notice my signature).
perks earned in the ew and mw arenas can be used in lw....and some come there to farm them.
maybe as soon as i finish up the 2 set's i';m working onm for the ava, i'll put a little more thought to helping mw, as i truly like that arena.......but i've really fallen in love with the ava since i first flew there last sept.........that's where i spend most of my time in game now.
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What if there were a small perk bonus (multiplyer) for playing in any lesser poulated arena even including the lesser populated LW arena? What if it were based on the % difference between arena population numbers?
Somehing like this:
LWO Population 200/200 Perk bonus = 0
LWB Population 150/200 Perk bonus = 200/150 = 1.33
MW Population 110/350 Perk Bonus = 200#/110 = 1.82 (#Always based on the highest fully populated arena cap)
EW Population 50/350 = 200/50 = 2.0# (#Maximum perk modifyer)
Include all arenas where prks are awarded.
This will give the biggest incentive to the lesser skilled pilots no doubt but the key is to get bodies into these arenas. Once some bodies are there others are sure to follow and perks are the most powerful incentive HT has to work with. I still see people getting excited over their war winning perks. Certainly some who currently choose the highest populated arena would instead choose to attempt to earn perks faster.
Just an idea.
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What if there were a small perk bonus (multiplyer) for playing in any lesser poulated arena even including the lesser populated LW arena? What if it were based on the % difference between arena population numbers?
Somehing like this:
LWO Population 200/200 Perk bonus = 0
LWB Population 150/200 Perk bonus = 200/150 = 1.33
MW Population 110/350 Perk Bonus = 200#/110 = 1.82 (#Always based on the highest fully populated arena cap)
EW Population 50/350 = 200/50 = 2.0# (#Maximum perk modifyer)
Include all arenas where prks are awarded.
This will give the biggest incentive to the lesser skilled pilots no doubt but the key is to get bodies into these arenas. Once some bodies are there others are sure to follow and perks are the most powerful incentive HT has to work with. I still see people getting excited over their war winning perks. Certainly some who currently choose the highest populated arena would instead choose to attempt to earn perks faster.
Just an idea.
if that was somethign htc could write into the programming, it might not be a half bad idea.
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This will give the biggest incentive to the lesser skilled pilots no doubt but the key is to get bodies into these arenas.
If the idea is to get bodies to EW & MW, add another incentive:
Keep split score as we do have now. But make "Overall" rank for getting on frontpage based on all main arenas, WW1, EW, MW + LW.
Sure, players trying for top rank will try to do a few milkruns in the less populated arenas.. but with them come those who love to hunt milkrunners down. And quickly you have 10-20 players in an arena that had been at 0 before.
(Old players might remember... EW & MW population took a big hit after score was split in tour 93, 'cause it was not "necessary" to fly in there any more ...)
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Okay Cap1, you just gave me an idea. If perks awarded in EW and MW could be spent in LW, maybe we would have more interest from the LW crowd, looking to perk farm enuf points quickly to fly B29s or Me262s. This would also mean that the perk system in both would need to be adjusted to further interest the LW players... Countries with lower numbers will receive huge perk values for successful sorties.
Slapshot,
I am not so sure that many feel that way. In fact, a number of early and mid war planes pwnd in the LW. I fly the F4U 1 not even the 1A :neener: It can hang with any uber ride you wanna throw at it. Just yesterday, it took out one engine of a 262 and chased down a 190 A8, and La7. I also learned how dangerous the P47D11 could be from N72 years ago in the AvA (notice my signature).
Slaps right, and this is where your wrong.
Slap is talking about "people", your talking about planes. People "want" to play in LW, and DON'T want to play in the other arenas. In most cases I'm sure it's nothing more than "thats where all the other people are, so it must be the best place" type of mentality. There isn't anything that will make them "want" to change other than population. When they first split the arenas into the EW, MW, and LW they were listed in that order on the login screen. For the first week or 2 EW was the most popular arena we had, never saw sooooo many P40s :D Once people figured out that you had a choice you could make they went LW and never looked back.
LW has the "uber" planes, it's thought that it has the "uber" sticks, and after all it's where the "kool" people play. Your not going to change any of that.
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Slaps right, and this is where your wrong.
Slap is talking about "people", your talking about planes. People "want" to play in LW, and DON'T want to play in the other arenas. In most cases I'm sure it's nothing more than "thats where all the other people are, so it must be the best place" type of mentality. There isn't anything that will make them "want" to change other than population. When they first split the arenas into the EW, MW, and LW they were listed in that order on the login screen. For the first week or 2 EW was the most popular arena we had, never saw sooooo many P40s :D Once people figured out that you had a choice you could make they went LW and never looked back.
LW has the "uber" planes, it's thought that it has the "uber" sticks, and after all it's where the "kool" people play. Your not going to change any of that.
/
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Slapshot,
I am not so sure that many feel that way. In fact, a number of early and mid war planes pwnd in the LW. I fly the F4U 1 not even the 1A :neener: It can hang with any uber ride you wanna throw at it. Just yesterday, it took out one engine of a 262 and chased down a 190 A8, and La7. I also learned how dangerous the P47D11 could be from N72 years ago in the AvA (notice my signature).
Chilli ... as Fugi pointed out, but I'll repeat it ... I didn't say anything about the "machines" ... just the "pilots". It's a mindset thing.
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Keep split score as we do have now. But make "Overall" rank for getting on frontpage based on all main arenas, WW1, EW, MW + LW.
Awesome idea ... or maybe create a new bracket/section called "Overall" or something along those lines. I don't think WW1 could be part of the equation due to the fact that you don't have all the scoring categories that you have in the other arenas.
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As for EW Lusche is correct. At one time ranking was based on all three arenas EW MW LW. So what you did in any arena counted at the end of the tour for top rankings for squads and individually. Back then we had many more people in the EW and MW arenas. Folks came to ether milk run or to try to teach those lowly EW pilots and tankers a lesson. Most times they got spanked and went back to LW so they could fly their uber planes and drive Tigers.
Then HTC changed it so you were only ranked in each arena you played in. Then people had no real reason to go to EW and MW and these arenas became ghost towns because of it. I get what HTC was trying to do as to the ranking but it had unintended consequence that really hurt EW & MW and that is too bad.
I liked EW then because the uber plane in that arena was the ME-109F4 and the only tank was the T-34. To GV you had to get up close and hit the sweet spot on the other T-34 or die, no long range kills in EW. It all seemed much more even there and we had good size squads on all sides back then.
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Thanks all :salute This is one thread where, I found some very reasonable answers to my questions. Maybe it was just that I had simple questions, but the answers to them, more than satisfied my curiosity. Not at all the flame basting that I thought I would be getting.
I won't turn it into one of my wish lists thread though I really believe in the solutions offered here. I will trust that HTC has its finger on the pulse, and are in a planning stage that we are not privy to.
+ 1 :aok for reasonable discussions, I learned a good deal today.
Again, thanks,
Chilli
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There is a large mindset that if you are not playing in the LW arenas, then you really aren't playing. They also consider players who make the other arenas their home, not as skilled as LW players ... they are somewhat of a "lesser" pilot and play in these arenas because they can't handle the "uber" sticks of the LW arenas.
I'm slower even than usual today. Is this for real, or are you being facetious?
- oldman
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Thanks all :salute This is one thread where, I found some very reasonable answers to my questions. Maybe it was just that I had simple questions, but the answers to them, more than satisfied my curiosity. Not at all the flame basting that I thought I would be getting.
I won't turn it into one of my wish lists thread though I really believe in the solutions offered here. I will trust that HTC has its finger on the pulse, and are in a planning stage that we are not privy to.
+ 1 :aok for reasonable discussions, I learned a good deal today.
Again, thanks,
Chilli
i woulda considered a somewhat wise-assed answer.......but you're a fellow ava'er........and you're working your bellybutton off to help that arena, so i figured i'd be nice. :devil :noid
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LW
I'm slower even than usual today. Is this for real, or are you being facetious?
- oldman
He's spot on. Just reading the BBS will prove this. I've seen many posts that in no uncertain terms called all who don't fly LW unskilled rutabagas who "can't hang with the big boys in LW". I take great offense to comments and attitudes like that. I choose to fly where I want based on a variety of factors such as planeset balance, number of players, my mood, and sometimes where certain people are.
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Looky here peeps. MidWar would suck if it had 300 players in it. Early war would suck just as well with 300 players in it. The quality of Gameplay has zero to do with mapsize or plane sets available. It is all about being compressed into a battlefield with too many players in it.
Honestly, having about 30-35 players per team on an average sized map is perfect for quality of gameplay.
Also, limiting squads to 10-12 players per "squad" would help a lot too.
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I have, for a very long time, considered the planeset of 1943 to be the most interesting of the options. It lacks the "Do everything" fighters for the most part and, other than a few standouts which could be controlled via perking, the fighters are generally well matched. The aircraft also have adequate performance by that time, so players feel like they have some power in the plane, which P-40Bs, Spitfire Mk Is and A6M2s don't really accomplish.
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When there was first the EW/MW/LW split, if I recall correctly there was little overlap in the plane sets. 109E's, for example, were not in service by "Late War" and so they were not available in the LWA. A lot of people, myself included, thought that was a bad idea, and there was enough of a clammor to change it that we ended up with all planes being available in the LWAs.
In hindsight, though, I wonder if that was ultimately counterproductive. If the plane sets in the time frames were unique, would those arenas have more appeal? Would a LW arena where the only planes available were those still in service in 1945 have less appeal (and therefore spread the numbers)? I think so, but I am less certain that the net effect would be players switching arenas rather than complaining about it.
EW also has a problem with the plane set in that there are really not enough EW rides. Add a few French fighters, Cr42s, Gladiators, etc, and does it become more used? I think it would, but maybe not if they were also available in the LWAs.
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EW also has a problem with the plane set in that there are really not enough EW rides. Add a few French fighters, Cr42s, Gladiators, etc, and does it become more used? I think it would, but maybe not if they were also available in the LWAs.
The biggest problem the EW arena had (and still has) was not the planeset redundancy or having not enough planes at all (note that the addition of P-39, I-16 and Brewster did - contrary to the predicitons of some - not help the numbers in any way) but the very neglected arena settings.
EW has the very same settings as LW (notably field and ship ack), but with much inferior equipment. And for years the Hurri IIc was utterly dominating EW both in numbers as well as K/D, but still had a much higher ENY than many other planes, whereas in LW it would had been perked after a week.
And another word on the planeset redundancy: Many, if not most players taking up an EW ride in the LW do not only do it due to their love for that plane alone - The fact that you can take up the Hurri I, 109F or whatever to fight late war uber rides like the Spit 16 has a huge influence on that decision, this is what makes up much of the appeal. For example early in this tour I did a few very satisfying sorties in the 109E-4 in LW, but if it had been available in EW only, I would not had gone there to fly it.
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I'm slower even than usual today. Is this for real, or are you being facetious?
- oldman
It was for "real" and I have experienced it first hand in the MW arena.
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The biggest problem the EW arena had (and still has) was not the planeset redundancy or having not enough planes at all (note that the addition of P-39, I-16 and Brewster did - contrary to the predicitons of some - not help the numbers in any way) but the very neglected arena settings.
EW has the very same settings as LW (notably field and ship ack), but with much inferior equipment. And for years the Hurri IIc was utterly dominating EW both in numbers as well as K/D, but still had a much higher ENY than many other planes, whereas in LW it would had been perked after a week.
And another word on the planeset redundancy: Many, if not most players taking up an EW ride in the LW do not only do it due to their love for that plane alone - The fact that you can take up the Hurri I, 109F or whatever to fight late war uber rides like the Spit 16 has a huge influence on that decision, this is what makes up much of the appeal. For example early in this tour I did a few very satisfying sorties in the 109E-4 in LW, but if it had been available in EW only, I would not had gone there to fly it.
So, it is a possibility that fewer folks would be interested in Late War if the Early War rides were excluded. Since, I am not comfortable with taking back something that folks are already used to, approaching the perk system giving Early War Arenas "UBER" perks might encourage more folks to fly there. The flip side may be more uncomfortable, but capping a players perks somewhere around 1500 perks, may further encourage voluntary flight in other main arenas. I said 1500 perks, because I figure that is somewhere around the average. 5000 perks might become less obtrusive, but I am not sure that would have the desired effect.
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So, it is a possibility that fewer folks would be interested in Late War if the Early War rides were excluded. Since, I am not comfortable with taking back something that folks are already used to, approaching the perk system giving Early War Arenas "UBER" perks might encourage more folks to fly there. The flip side may be more uncomfortable, but capping a players perks somewhere around 1500 perks, may further encourage voluntary flight in other main arenas. I said 1500 perks, because I figure that is somewhere around the average. 5000 perks might become less obtrusive, but I am not sure that would have the desired effect.
i understand where you're comin from dood......but what you're trying to do, is to "legislate" behavior. it won't work. i applaud you're trying to come up with ideas.....but you can't make it work.
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The biggest problem the EW arena had (and still has) was not the planeset redundancy or having not enough planes at all (note that the addition of P-39, I-16 and Brewster did - contrary to the predicitons of some - not help the numbers in any way) but the very neglected arena settings.
EW has the very same settings as LW (notably field and ship ack), but with much inferior equipment. And for years the Hurri IIc was utterly dominating EW both in numbers as well as K/D, but still had a much higher ENY than many other planes, whereas in LW it would had been perked after a week.
And another word on the planeset redundancy: Many, if not most players taking up an EW ride in the LW do not only do it due to their love for that plane alone - The fact that you can take up the Hurri I, 109F or whatever to fight late war uber rides like the Spit 16 has a huge influence on that decision, this is what makes up much of the appeal. For example early in this tour I did a few very satisfying sorties in the 109E-4 in LW, but if it had been available in EW only, I would not had gone there to fly it.
Brewster/i-16/P-39 fans and curiosity seekers could up them in the LWAs, and therefore there was no reason to go to EWA or MWA to try them. Had the plane sets been exclusive, they may have been a draw into those arenas. Without the exclusivity, I don't think we have (or ever will have) evidence either way.
IIRC the Hurri IIC was at the time one of the perk farmers of choice, and it being unavailable in the LWA caused the most angst. If it suddenly wasn't available, people would complain again. Would they switch arenas in order to fly it? Or just complain and fly a Spixteen in LWA instead? I'm not sure. I suspect a mix, but have no way to prove it.
There are those like yourself who want / need an asymetric fight to enjoy the game to its fullest, and for them taking an EW aircraft out against the LW monsters is appealing. That would need to be balanced against the stated goal of improving an overall spread of players between EW, MW and LW areans.
I completely agree about the arena settings, especially the 1945-type AA from the CVs. It is a problem that IMHO should have been addressed in some manner a long time ago.
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i understand where you're comin from dood......but what you're trying to do, is to "legislate" behavior. it won't work. i applaud you're trying to come up with ideas.....but you can't make it work.
I think "influence" is a better term vs. "legislate." And we have a lot of examples of the game makers already attempting to influence behavior via factors like ENY and the arena splits. A level-headed discussion of what could be done to influence behavior toward certain goals might ultimately be futile, but I personally find it interesting nonetheless.
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I think "influence" is a better term vs. "legislate." And we have a lot of examples of the game makers already attempting to influence behavior via factors like ENY and the arena splits. A level-headed discussion of what could be done to influence behavior toward certain goals might ultimately be futile, but I personally find it interesting nonetheless.
i stand corrected. influence is a much better term.....i couldn't for whatever reason think of anything other than legislate........
i'm not trying to critisize......was just making a point. :aok