Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Nefarious on March 19, 2011, 11:54:24 AM
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Greetings, Registration for April's FSO is now open and you can edit your squad side and ride preferences.
http://ahevents.org/fso-setups/37-pacific-theatre/219-ketsu-go.html
Please note the specific rules for the B-29 and other aircraft.
Registration will close on the 24th.
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Looks like a very fun tour. :salute :cheers:
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uh...where's the betty? :uhoh weren't they used til the end of the war.
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uh...where's the betty? :uhoh weren't they used til the end of the war.
Unless they use the betties as defensive, this is a basic bombing raid on Jap land.
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Unless they use the betties as defensive, this is a basic bombing raid on Jap land.
guess that eluded me with the ki-67 being in the lineup...i'm guessing they were used as bomber interceptors too?
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The betty was used until later. However, the version we have is the early version with no fuel tank protection. It's a far cry from the later more powerful and stronger Bettys in service in 1944/45.
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Greetings, Registration for April's FSO is now open and you can edit your squad side and ride preferences.
http://ahevents.org/fso-setups/37-pacific-theatre/219-ketsu-go.html
Please note the specific rules for the B-29 and other aircraft.
Registration will close on the 24th.
I see a number of possible historical inaccuracies. P-47Ns never flew with 425rpg option, needing every bit of weight savings they adhered to the 267 rpg (and even had this printed on the gun bays). In a setup like this, no doubt the overload guns will be used to best continue fighting longer and more effectively. They abused the oveload ammo in BoG recently, having P-47Ds orbiting for quite a long time, harrassing and vulching, etc. None of that would have been possible with historic ammo loadouts. Less ammo requires planes to RTB earlier, rotate escorts in and out, allows for gaps in the defenses, etc.
You mention 24 max B-29s.... I see this is with formations "on".
24 formations of B-29s could effectively wipe out half the IJA forces and still flatten the target several times over. I helped do some testing not too long ago to see how they performed at alt. They are very overpowering without any escorts at all. I think 24 of them without formations would still be an awful lot. Remember each plane carries 20,000lbs of bombs. Each formation carries 60,000lbs with 1000 rpg ammo loadout. You can fire nonstop for almost 2 minutes straight with that much ammo.
I was able to gun down repeated attempts to attack my B-29 formation by Ki61 and N1K2s before they were able to fire a shot, and I'm by no means a good gunner.
I express great concern over the setup with that many B-29s in it and that many planes escorting them. Taking on a P-51 in a Ki-61 can be fun. Taking on a B-29 in one not so much.
Any chance of substituting B-24s for the remaining frames if the 29s prove so overwhelmingly unstoppable?
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We discussed this pretty thoroughly with the CM Team, BTW Krusty, Thank you... I appreciate your testing with some of the CM's.
The forces of B-29s will have to be split up, 24 Formations of B-29s will not be attacking 1 Target. Going into Frame 1, There will be three targets for the B-29s... Equally divided that would put 8 Formations over each target. (24 Ships). This can be raised or lowered going into frame 2 depending on the results of frame 1 and the same goes for the ALT CAP, It can be raised or lowered depending on the results.
In regards to your testing with Fuzeman and TracerX, I don't think it really represents enough of the FSO type engagements we see, 1 or 2 aircraft attacking any heavy bomber formation (B-17/B-24/B-29) are bound to take losses or make it seem impossible. While there may be some engagements of 1 or 2 aircraft trying to attack a larger formation of B-29s, There will also be coordinated attacks of multiple squads of Japanese aircraft in FSO.
We all know about the massive B-29 raids over Japan and the difficulty the Japanese forces had trying to engage them... It was a extremely difficult task, but successes were had and we will work to find the right balance should the Frame 1 results show them impossible to bring down.
As far as the P-47N goes, I'm not to familiar with the historical load outs of the P-47N. I know there has been talk of this in the past few FSOs and BOG, but I'm just not that knowledgeable about them. Shoot me a link to the discussion or a website and I will consider changing it, if it is indeed true.
I've flown some of the missions that we will see in this event while testing the last few weeks. Many of the USAAF targets will take just under 60 minutes to fly too. Allied Escort should be wary about loitering over Japan for too long or they will not make it home and will be counted as lost. So in regard to the P-47Ns time over target because of there ammo load outs, time may make that a non-factor... But as I mentioned, shoot me a link about the N's ammo.
As far as the Ki-67 is concerned, the Japanese will have USN Fleets to target over the course of the event, So I included the Ki-67 so the Japanese could bomb or torpedo them. But for the most part, The Japanese will be on the defensive.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
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Here comes the zeek vs b29 :cheers:
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We discussed this pretty thoroughly with the CM Team, BTW Krusty, Thank you... I appreciate your testing with some of the CM's.
The forces of B-29s will have to be split up, 24 Formations of B-29s will not be attacking 1 Target. Going into Frame 1, There will be three targets for the B-29s... Equally divided that would put 8 Formations over each target. (24 Ships). This can be raised or lowered going into frame 2 depending on the results of frame 1 and the same goes for the ALT CAP, It can be raised or lowered depending on the results.
In regards to your testing with Fuzeman and TracerX, I don't think it really represents enough of the FSO type engagements we see, 1 or 2 aircraft attacking any heavy bomber formation (B-17/B-24/B-29) are bound to take losses or make it seem impossible. While there may be some engagements of 1 or 2 aircraft trying to attack a larger formation of B-29s, There will also be coordinated attacks of multiple squads of Japanese aircraft in FSO.
We all know about the massive B-29 raids over Japan and the difficulty the Japanese forces had trying to engage them... It was a extremely difficult task, but successes were had and we will work to find the right balance should the Frame 1 results show them impossible to bring down.
As far as the P-47N goes, I'm not to familiar with the historical load outs of the P-47N. I know there has been talk of this in the past few FSOs and BOG, but I'm just not that knowledgeable about them. Shoot me a link to the discussion or a website and I will consider changing it, if it is indeed true.
I've flown some of the missions that we will see in this event while testing the last few weeks. Many of the USAAF targets will take just under 60 minutes to fly too. Allied Escort should be wary about loitering over Japan for too long or they will not make it home and will be counted as lost. So in regard to the P-47Ns time over target because of there ammo load outs, time may make that a non-factor... But as I mentioned, shoot me a link about the N's ammo.
As far as the Ki-67 is concerned, the Japanese will have USN Fleets to target over the course of the event, So I included the Ki-67 so the Japanese could bomb or torpedo them. But for the most part, The Japanese will be on the defensive.
I hope that answers some of your questions.
They get formations too? LOL.
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Here comes the zeek vs b29 :cheers:
The only way that will happen is if the CIC's assign them against the B-29.
The way the event will be setup is the USAAF will attack targets West of the 9 Line and the USN/USMC will strike targets East of the 9 Line on the Japan Terrain (Which is a new Terrain from the Terrain Team BTW). So the Zero does not have to be used against the B-29 unless the CIC assigns them specifically.
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No japanese fighter can catch the b29, even at 21,9k.
What would be the side ratio?
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Krusty brings up a good point on the B29 against the IJN plane set. I've flown a few sorties in the MA with the B29 at 32K and devastated what I aimed at and the reality was at 32K the B29 was almost impossible to reach or catch. And with a million bombs on board you don't have to be a good bombardier either. Just start dropping on one side of the base and stop dropping on the other. Then turn around and go after what you missed on the first drop!! :D
Also good set up Nef with the distribution of B29 power into different target areas. That will help.
I know normally in the late war pacific scenario's "Air Spawns" are used. If so i suggest that these air spawns be kept low 5K or 10K max and not the normal 15 or 20K level or not used at all unless required due to the map. If the B29's have the time to climb up to 25K or higher the IJN AC wont have a chance unless they just happen to be going into them head on and with altitude. Once they turn they'll probably never catch them.
High flying B29's also provide a significant advantage to the ALLIED side in how their squads are tasked. High flying B29's could probably make it in and out of the target areas without escorts. "If" the ALLIED commander planned this way then this would free up squads to conduct more "low level" activities. And this could swing the match ups even more to the ALLIED side at the different targets.
So if the scenario can control the height in which the B29's are used it will probably be more fair. In my opinion the fun level for all will be in keeping them low and accessible to the IJN side. Also I would jack up the points to the IJN side for destroying them as well.
Should be a fun scenario :salute
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Unfortunately with airspawns their location and altitude is hard coded into the terrain when we make them. The setup CM doesn't have the ability to say have the spawns be at 10K this frame and 20K the next frame.
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No japanese fighter can catch the b29, even at 21,9k.
What would be the side ratio?
The Axis will have an advantage, that is TBD until more squads update there preferences and numbers.
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Well, fact is that in RL by 1945 most of the IJN and IJA planes were pretty much outclassed. So, how do you create a game that illustrates that time without becoming a one-sided slaughter? I look forward to seeing how our FSO designers have solved this, handicapped as they are by the somewhat limited AH plane set that exists today.
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Well Nef has implementing three things so far to try to balance out the design.
1) Forcing the B29s to hit multiple targets to make sure there is not one massive force of them (no pig piling)>
2) Enforcing an alt limit on the B29s (no 32K alt strikes from them).
3) Japanese forces will have the numerical advantage on the U.S. Exact advantage TBD once all squads have indicated their preferences.
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Well, fact is that in RL by 1945 most of the IJN and IJA planes were pretty much outclassed. So, how do you create a game that illustrates that time without becoming a one-sided slaughter? I look forward to seeing how our FSO designers have solved this, handicapped as they are by the somewhat limited AH plane set that exists today.
Is FSO base on a historic aspect of the war?
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Is FSO base on a historic aspect of the war?
Yes but it also based on having fun. How much fun is it going to be to have everything out run you and you have your 1 pass on the 29s only to most likely have them fly on. Yeah the allies may have a blast in the turkey shoot but the axis will get the shaft.
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Yes but it also based on having fun. How much fun is it going to be to have everything out run you and you have your 1 pass on the 29s only to most likely have them fly on. Yeah the allies may have a blast in the turkey shoot but the axis will get the shaft.
No different then the Ju-88 out run the hurr and spit I in BoB or B-17s doing the same on the A6M2 in a early PTO event.
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If I may comment on this setup,
It may seem out balanced, but there was an FSO not to long ago which stacked up A6M2s vs P38s P47s and F4Us.
I thought it was going to be a turkey shoot too, but it ended up being an Axis victory.
There are a few late war monsters on the Allies side, but they do have some weak points that the Axis can play to their advantage.
IMHO the B29 should be put at a lower alt limit OR have formations disabled, a tight group of good pilots can destroy any incoming aircraft in that thing; it carried 20k in bombs, so having no formations shouldn't limit its destructive power.
Just a little side note, maybe some squads will take no formations, limiting the points the Axis can get from the B29 kills, and it is fun as hell, we do this regularly in FSO!
Whatever the outcome is, I'm sure the CMs can make this a balanced event, if it doesn't turn out so clean cut for the first Frame, I'm sure there will be changes.
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Nef stated there will be an alt cap for B29s of 22K. The attached graphic is taken from HTC site and shows the military and WEP speeds of the IJA & IJN planes versus the B29.
If HTC stats are correct then only the A6M5B would have a hard time at 22K alt keeping up with the B29. The Ki61 is faster at 22K but around 23K the two planes match speed roughly. So it could be a bit dicey for the Ki61 also. Ki84 and N1K2 should have no problem.
The issue really comes down to if the IJA/IJN forces are already at alt versus when they engage the B29s or not.
(http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/b29-vs-ij.gif)
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The issue really comes down to if the IJA/IJN forces are already at alt versus when they engage the B29s or not.
That should not be a problem as they should have plenty of time to climb.
Thanks for the Charts...
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Seeing all the charts in front of me changed my outlook, thanks for posting ghostdancer. :salute
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Seeing all the charts in front of me changed my outlook, thanks for posting ghostdancer. :salute
At 22k the charts show about a 15mph top speed difference between B-29 and N1K2.
That's about the lead that hurr1s have over the Ju88s in BOB setups....
And we all know how those play out, right? Hurricanes cannot catch them. 15mph on paper doesn't mean much when a single 5-degree jink to avoid escorts puts you off target. You can never regain it.
The Ki-61 could not catch a formation of B-29s at 20K when I tested them with a few friends. He was chasing one formation hopelessly and I actually passed underneath him (lol) and overtook and flew away in another set.
That chart may be with 100% fuel in the B-29s. Flying at 100% fuel will make you slower. You need a higher AoA to maintain level flight, which increases drag (or whatever the science) and makes you slower. Lesser fuel loads mean you fly faster. Look at B-17s and B-24s in this game. Flying around 300mph TAS because they take lighter fuel loads.
Ki-84 will definitely have the speed advantage in this one, but only for 3 minutes at a time. It is also notorious for being disabled/destroyed easily (weak jaw) when attacking bombers. Taking it in against B-24s is a terrifying experience. Against B-29s even worse.
EDIT: Not intending to harp. I think folks are SERIOUSLY underestimating the B-29 here.
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Let me put it this way:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=9&p2=78&pw=1>ype=0)
FW190A8 is better than the best of the IJA line, the Ki-84 at all higher alts.
It still has a VERY hard time chasing down B-24s. You might get one pass/merge/dive in but if you have to give a chase to formations for any reason (bad timing, escorts kept you off target, bombers turned away, whatever) you will almost be unable to catch B-24s.
Now add 60mph on top of that, double the effective return fire, and lower the best of the best's top speed. You get the B-29 vs Ki-84. Forget Ki-61s being used against these planes. One pass and they're done. If they get through that pass.
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That chart may be with 100% fuel in the B-29s. Flying at 100% fuel will make you slower. You need a higher AoA to maintain level flight, which increases drag (or whatever the science) and makes you slower. Lesser fuel loads mean you fly faster. Look at B-17s and B-24s in this game. Flying around 300mph TAS because they take lighter fuel loads.
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Interesting observation.
According to what I've read, and talking with a few folks who flew B-17s and B-24s in WWII, bombers always flew at maximum weight, trading off bombs vs. fuel depending on the distance to their target. But always at maximum weight. As the old saw goes, "nothing is more useless than the fuel you leave in the truck, or the runway that is behind you." I have never - yet - heard of a RL instance where bombers were loaded with less fuel in order weigh less and fly faster.
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I like all of the PTO setups, but I must admit that the B-29's are going to be a bear to bring down with the current planes and gun packages that we have. But until HTC rounds out the Japanese stable, it is what it is.
It will still come down to the skill of the Axis pilots. The allies should come into this one with a swollen head(B-29, F4U, P-47N.....and the how could we possibly loose attitude) and it wouldn't surprise me if they take a few lumps
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Per the chart the N1K2 is closer to 20 mph faster at 22K not 15 mph.
Ki-84 military and WEP speed are the same at 22K so there is not a 3 minute window.
By the logic of less fuel means faster plane then by the time that all the IJN fighters vector in on the B29 they will also have less fuel, so by this logic they will also be faster since they won't be carrying 100% fuel at the time of the intercept.
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In regards to your B24 versus the Fw190A8, 190a8 has a serious speed advantage over the B24J at co-alt or high alt positions at basically all altitudes. As for fuel states, yes in the MA you won't have bombers with 100% fuel but you also won't have fighters at 100% fuel either.
(http://www.dgideon.org/aceshigh/b24-190a8.gif)
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Lost power and phone this past weekend. Hence I have not been able to follow the FSO forum or this thread.
Nef wants to give the B-29 a try. I am all for it. No doubt it adds some issues we may have to deal with.
Nef will adjust as needed to make it enjoyable for all involved.
Give it a shot. Not like we haven't tried new things before. :D
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We are also going to have a custom weather file installed for April's FSO.
It will consist of clouds at and below the 22K Alt Cap, Obscured targets could force the B-29s lower to get a clear view through the bomb sight.
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Interesting observation.
According to what I've read, and talking with a few folks who flew B-17s and B-24s in WWII, bombers always flew at maximum weight, trading off bombs vs. fuel depending on the distance to their target. But always at maximum weight. As the old saw goes, "nothing is more useless than the fuel you leave in the truck, or the runway that is behind you." I have never - yet - heard of a RL instance where bombers were loaded with less fuel in order weigh less and fly faster.
Quite so. They loaded max fuel just to bomb things across the channel from England.
GD: You're failing to understand the point I'm making. While the charts are in fact showing the FW190 faster than the B-24 (and it is... in clean condition with prolonged WEP time), in actual practice, from multiple scenarios, from so many FSOs I can't count them, the FW190A8 is too slow to catch B-24s when the B-24s are flying full throttle. That's when there are no escorts to stop your chase. If you have alt, if you have position, or whatever, If you have SOME advantage, you can transfer that into your attack. If you're co-alt/co-E you're SOL and then some. You'll chase them for 15-20 minutes to make 1 good attack run, or fall dead6 for a cheap death attack run and die. By then they're 3 sectors in and you've only made 1 attack. They can cross half a map in 20-30 minutes.
I've also run into bombers in the MA for whatever reason were flying aroudn 150-180mph level. I was actually able to make slashing passes in a 190a as stated in historic reports. I was able to get in position several times AHEAD of the formation all inside 1 sector's distance of flight.
It was much more immersive and gave me a real awesome moment of what-it-musta-felt-like. I don't get that feeling in scenarios or FSOs as much as the allied escorts must. You could actually make a dead6 attack quickly, and break off and reposition, instead of loitering there in the gunsights like full-throttle-bombers would have produced.
Funny thing is in BoG Frame 3 or 4 I saw 2 full squads of ALLIED fighters trying to catch up to the bombers. They bounced attackers and couldn't get back into cover position over their buffs! I just flew alongside these p47s/p51s and popped 3 or 4 of them. Bombers fly too fast in this game, that's a fact. If you're trying to put them into some setup or scenario you have to take that into account.
Unless the B-29s are forced to carry 50% fuel (denoting burning half on the way to target?) or 75% (they'd have reserve fuel for the route back), and fly only at max cruise settings, they have a fair chance of outrunning a number of the fighters chasing them.
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While the charts are in fact showing the FW190 faster than the B-24 (and it is... in clean condition with prolonged WEP time)
The chart shows both the military and WEP speed. Both are significantly faster than the B24J at all alts. In regards to your "in a clean state" comment most defenders dump their drop tanks and gun their engines to get to their max speed as soon as confirmation of enemy is in the area. So more likely than not they will be in a clean state or soon will be when intercepting incoming attackers. If they are not in a clean state at this point that is the choice of the pilot.
in actual practice, from multiple scenarios, from so many FSOs I can't count them, the FW190A8 is too slow to catch B-24s when the B-24s are flying full throttle.
You do realize that other people, including myself, have been participating in events much longer than you have and have actually have equal or more practice in these match ups than you do? So to make a claim that your personal experience trumps others because of the amount of actual practice and events you have been in is not a credible or even logical argument.
Bombers fly too fast in this game, that's a fact. If you're trying to put them into some setup or scenario you have to take that into account.
No it is not a fact. It is your position. Submit data to HTC proving that their modelling is wrong, otherwise it is not a fact but your opinion. Also submit proof that a B24J and Fw190A8 at coalt, running level, and both at their max speed will result in a B24J out running a Fw190A8.
Funny thing is in BoG Frame 3 or 4 I saw 2 full squads of ALLIED fighters trying to catch up to the bombers. They bounced attackers and couldn't get back into cover position over their buffs!
Nothing funny about it. If the escorts engaged the enemy they more likely than not blew some E in the engagement. If they got sucked low by the enemy they then not only loss E but altitude. So while the bombers continued full bored toward their targets the escorts made the mistake of getting sucked away from the bombers and losing alt. They then had to recover from a state with less E and not only climb back up toward the bombers but climb to superior altitude. So depending on how much E they blew in the engagement and how much lower in alt they end up than the bombers is very plausible. Not a funny situation at all or anything that proves your point. It is also why escorts are told over and over and over again in events and actually in real life not to leave the bombers.
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Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun. :salute
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It will consist of clouds at and below the 22K Alt Cap, Obscured targets could force the B-29s lower to get a clear view through the bomb sight.
I have been in other 'events' other than FSO where "22k Alt Cap" meant 22,999 feet maximum when others thought that 22k was the maximum and 22,001 feet was breaking the cap. What is your definition and how will it be verified?
Thanks.
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22,000 will be the ALT CAP meaning 22,001 would be a violation.
Most likely any verification would come from film review post-frame unless a nearby CM can verify that indeed they are in violation during the frame and report it to the Admin or Setup CM. A large portion of CMs fly FSO and are present every frame... we are watching :noid
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Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun. :salute
Make sure you adjust your numbers accordingly. :D
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So the B29s are limited to 22,001 ft but the fighters are not, correct Nef?
And yes, I agree that speed is not the real issue. The durability and firepower of the B29s are going to play a larger aspect in the engagements. Right now Nef has 24 flights hitting three targets. So lets say 8 flights per target. That means 24 B29s per target plus escorts versus a large force of IJN fighters (possibly Ki61s, Ki84s, and N1K2s). The exact side split is TBD.
I think that is going to be the real tricky part. Having enough IJN/IJA fighters to balance things out without having to many. Like all bomber engagements it really comes down to group level attacks on the bomber formations. The B29 is more heavily armed than the B17 and B24 but how that equates to how many more IJA / IJN there should be (what the side split of forces should be) is what needs to be determined.
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So the B29s are limited to 22,001 ft but the fighters are not, correct Nef?
Correct.
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70% ija to 30% allies would be great but, good luck getting 70% of the squads to be willing fly axis on this one.
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Not sure what Nef is thinking but maybe 60% to 40%, especially since the Axis side has been turning out low recently.
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Interesting observation.
According to what I've read, and talking with a few folks who flew B-17s and B-24s in WWII, bombers always flew at maximum weight, trading off bombs vs. fuel depending on the distance to their target. But always at maximum weight. As the old saw goes, "nothing is more useless than the fuel you leave in the truck, or the runway that is behind you." I have never - yet - heard of a RL instance where bombers were loaded with less fuel in order weigh less and fly faster.
Sounds like something for the Wishlist:
Make it so every heavy bomber leaves the hangar at max weight; depending on bombload chosen fuel would be added/subtracted. If a small bombload is chosen, and max fuel won't bring it to max weight, then they have to choose a different bomb loadout.
(If we're shooting for "realism" here) ;)
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Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun. :salute
That's the attitude sport.
Remember it's 90% pilot and only 10% plane.
And thanks for the reference to "Jappos.
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:rofl
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Gents,
With the discussion on the altitude that the B-29s should bomb from as seen in:
Well Nef has implementing three things so far to try to balance out the design.
1) Forcing the B29s to hit multiple targets to make sure there is not one massive force of them (no pig piling)>
2) Enforcing an alt limit on the B29s (no 32K alt strikes from them).
3) Japanese forces will have the numerical advantage on the U.S. Exact advantage TBD once all squads have indicated their preferences.
Let us look back at the history of this air campaign over Japan. When Gen Curtis Lemay took command of the campaign, he first noticed that the high altitude bombing of Japanese targets was showing ineffective accuracy. His solution was to bring the B-29s down to 10K, night raids with fire bombs. The reason found why the B-29s were not hitting from extreme altitudes was the effects of the JET STREAM that flowed over the Japanese Islands. I know that the CMs can play with the wind speed at different altitudes. This to me looks like a scenario modification that would be historically accurate. :old:
Jamie
Tull
XO, 367th FG
They're trying to kill me," Yossarian told him calmly.
"No one's trying to kill you," Clevinger cried.
"Then why are they shooting at me?" Yossarian asked.
"They're shooting at everyone," Clevinger answered. "They're trying to kill everyone."
"And what difference does that make?"
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not exactly correct tull...lemay's decision was brought on by 2 issues, accuracy and losses...his orders were for the 29s to fly 15-17k over target...strangely enough, they had fewer losses to ack and enemy aircraft, and accuracy increased "satisfactorily"...but that's just what several sources say, i wasn't there.
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Brother,
I defer to your historical information. I was hip shooting and did not go look it up before posting. The altitude that you quoted, I believe was correct and the losses were reduced due to an exploition of a weakness in the Japanese Anti-Air Defense Artillery shells. There was an altitude band that the shells could not be set for to blow up. The B-29s were flying in that gap. The same thing happened with the AA Guns on the Bismark. They could not be set for an aircraft flying at the slow speed of the Swordfish. :aok
Jamie
Tull
XO, 367th FG
They're trying to kill me," Yossarian told him calmly.
"No one's trying to kill you," Clevinger cried.
"Then why are they shooting at me?" Yossarian asked.
"They're shooting at everyone," Clevinger answered. "They're trying to kill everyone."
"And what difference does that make?"
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Man, its not about the b24 but the b29...
You have the same speed of your target, but your target has 3*20mms and 36*50cals plus hard like crazy. Not to talk about the ponies and jugs BnZing you. GL Jappos, i wont take part in this FSO, just as the majority of my squad. Have fun. :salute
Well that is very dissapointing sir.
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Ok sirs, flame on me, but that FSO will be a BnZ fest to the allies and a megadeth, unsuccessful chase to the axis. Remember me after the first frame.
At Perd: ok i shut up. Forever.
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Yes but it also based on having fun. How much fun is it going to be to have everything out run you and you have your 1 pass on the 29s only to most likely have them fly on. Yeah the allies may have a blast in the turkey shoot but the axis will get the shaft.
Axis always gets the shaft, that is why we are Axis. Should be used to it by now.
To all Axis pilots:
Let's just shut up about it and whoop some arse. Hell, let the CM's throw some F-86s in too, should be fun.
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It'll be nice to see the B-29s escorting the fighters.
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I can recall tearing the frame out of JU88's with a Hurri in BoB. Once we spotted them coming in it was just a matter of time before we caught them. Patience was the key...
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Axis always gets the shaft, that is why we are Axis. Should be used to it by now.
I fly Axis because I choose to, not because of any perceived shaft.
To all Axis pilots:
Let's just shut up about it and whoop some arse.
Funny I don't see that many of us talking... :headscratch:
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I fly Axis because I choose to, not because of any perceived shaft.
Funny I don't see that many of us talking... :headscratch:
:rofl :lol :rofl :lol
(http://www.spminiatures.com/wgtingasolinecan.jpg)
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I fly Axis because I choose to, not because of any perceived shaft.
Funny I don't see that many of us talking... :headscratch:
The whole post was directed at Debrody. But I didnt want to call him out so I said Axis. I am sorry that I offended you Shifty. Enjoy your high horse.
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The whole post was directed at Debrody. But I didnt want to call him out so I said Axis. I am sorry that I offended you Shifty. Enjoy your high horse.
I wasn't offended and I don't need to be on a high horse to spot somebody in the whine celler.
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I think both sides will be doing a lot of BnZ. Allied escorts will stack above the B29s and Japanese will also stack up there. So will come down to the escort work to disrupt the Japanese planes up there.
If I was the Japanese CiC I would concentrate my N1K2s and Ki84s to defend the targets the B29s are going after. While using the Ki61 and A6M5s elsewhere. Plus, like attacking any bombers I would tell my attackers to concentrate on the main buff of the formation (take it out and the buff driver takes a few seconds to switch to another buff), plus the usual of concentrating on blowing off a wing of the buff instead of the body. If figure even with the B29 being more rugged that other bombers that the wing is still easier to blow off than other areas.
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I think both sides will be doing a lot of BnZ. Allied escorts will stack above the B29s and Japanese will also stack up there. So will come down to the escort work to disrupt the Japanese planes up there.
If I was the Japanese CiC I would concentrate my N1K2s and Ki84s to defend the targets the B29s are going after. While using the Ki61 and A6M5s elsewhere. Plus, like attacking any bombers I would tell my attackers to concentrate on the main buff of the formation (take it out and the buff driver takes a few seconds to switch to another buff), plus the usual of concentrating on blowing off a wing of the buff instead of the body. If figure even with the B29 being more rugged that other bombers that the wing is still easier to blow off than other areas.
IMHO the most vulnerable part of *any* bomber sits in the pilot's chair! :devil
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The problem I see is not the speed but the acceleration to get to the speeds needed to catch the B29's. A zeke will acclerate fast to about 250mph, after that u might as well push it to get to its top speed. The only Jap plane that accelerates really quick is the Ki84 and like someone stated, that is only for a very short time. Niki acclerates somewhat quickly to a certain point, then it also will take for ever to get to its max speed. This is the real issue.
When u make a attack on any bomber flying level at full throttle with a Zeke or Ki61, U will basically get 1-2 attack runs on it before u lose all ur speed and it will take to long for u to get back up to speed to catch it. Niki and Ki84 may be the same with maybe 3 attack runs on it and it too will be left in the dust. Now add the Escorts into the mix and guess what, U be lucky to have more then 1 attack run on the bombers for any Jap plane.
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AKdogg it depends on the tactics used but you are right the escorts jobs is to disrupt and drive off the attackers. They want to tie them down to either not be able to make a run or only get one good pass.
The attackers need to apply tactics to deal with escorts to clear a way for others to hit the buffs. One way to do this is to send in flights from different directions. First group dives in and hopefully sucks the escorts to them while others still wait. If the escorts show bad discipline then the first wave can suck them away and out of position clearing the wave for a different wave to come in.
But really it will all come down to a bunch of variables ... discipline of the escorts, tactics of the attackers, etc. The wild cards are the firepower of the B29 and its durability, the rest is the same equation that attackers, escorts, and defenders deal with all the time. The increase speed of the B29 means that the Japanese can not get sloppy. Not only do the escorts need to not lose sight of the buffs but also the defenders do now. No tangling with escorts or just trying to kill them first and then wondering where the bombers are later and assuming you can find them again. While the Ki84 and N1K2 can catch up if they have not blown their speed, the greater speed of the B29 means there is a greater area they have to search to re-acquire the B29 if they lose sight of them.
If the Japanese CiCs plan accordingly the defending planes for the B29 targets should have alt on the buffs. On the escorts is questionable and there are to many variables really to predict there. However, this is the case with any bomber force. The Japanese need to effectively deal with the escorts and not blow their E or alt when attacking the buffs.
The A6M5 will generally be ineffective against the B29s but the CiC can make sure not to put them up against them. Simply don't assign them as defenders for the B29 strike areas. I would also not assign Ki61s to that role either since as stated if they get tied down by the escorts or blow their E they will have an almost small chance of re-acquiring the buffs before target.