Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: alpini13 on March 25, 2011, 07:47:29 PM
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hi,not sure about manualy draining fuel tanks,any info would help. looking for info on fw-190 a-8,d-9,ta-152,f4u-d and -4,p-51d, p-47 m and n. any help would be appreciated, thanks
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you can DO that [manually drain fuel tanks] in AH?! :rant :headscratch:
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The default selections are the best way to go (of everything I have tried) so if you just load up a plane with 50% fuel and see which tanks have fuel (shift-f) then you will have your answer by comparing which tanks have fuel when you load 100%. Make sense?
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Just to expand on the topic a bit, as you cycle through the tanks with SHIFT-F, the white lettered tank is the "automatic" tank. The other tanks are lettered yellow to indicate a manual setting for that particular tank.
As an example, if you select a wing tank and it's lettering is yellow, when that tank is empty you'll need to manually switch to another fuel tank.
When you select the white lettered tank (default), all the fuel tanks on the plane will be used in a predetermined order automatically.
As for the planes, the FW190 series is best draining the aft tank first (that's the default on auto).
The F4U-4 guzzles fuel so fast you don't have to worry. You'll be empty before you can get the gear up...lol.
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Here are a few of the aircraft I am aware of that benefit from burning specific fuel tanks first:
Spitfires (1, 5, 8, 9, 14): When the time comes to burn off either the bottom or top tank, manually burn the top tank first. It helps with roll capability. This is historically accurate, they would burn the top tank first as they climbed for altitude. The Spit16 already has "sooper"-roll capability, so no need to worry about that model, just fly it and land the easy-mode kills. ;)
The F4U's: If the F4U model has a LEFT wing tank, burn that first. It is historically accurate it as well. It helps avoid dipping the left wing too soon in a stall out.
The P47's: Burn the main tank first. That is the fuel tank that will reach out and grab bullets so it leaks.
The P40E: Burn the main tank first, it helps with the directional "wobble".
The 190's, P51B/D, : standard. Let the plane do its thing.
As far as taking DT's and 50% fuel... don't do that. Don't wear girl underwear when you play this sim-game unless you are female. ;) If you are anyone really thinks that flying in that manner get them more "killz" they are sadly mistaken. If they need that 100th wee bit extra of chance to squeeze through a situation then they should have not been there to begin with. :)
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Only the F4U-1 and -1A have wing tanks, the 1D/C/4 only have1
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Here are a few of the aircraft I am aware of that benefit from burning specific fuel tanks first:
Spitfires (1, 5, 8, 9, 14): When the time comes to burn off either the bottom or top tank, manually burn the top tank first. It helps with roll capability. This is historically accurate, they would burn the top tank first as they climbed for altitude. The Spit16 already has "sooper"-roll capability, so no need to worry about that model, just fly it and land the easy-mode kills. ;)
The F4U's: If the F4U model has a LEFT wing tank, burn that first. It is historically accurate it as well. It helps avoid dipping the left wing too soon in a stall out.
The P47's: Burn the main tank first. That is the fuel tank that will reach out and grab bullets so it leaks.
The P40E: Burn the main tank first, it helps with the directional "wobble".
The 190's, P51B/D, : standard. Let the plane do its thing.
As far as taking DT's and 50% fuel... don't do that. Don't wear girl underwear when you play this sim-game unless you are female. ;) If you are anyone really thinks that flying in that manner get them more "killz" they are sadly mistaken. If they need that 100th wee bit extra of chance to squeeze through a situation then they should have not been there to begin with. :)
You might think so... but that is wrong. What you refer to as "100th wee bit extra" can actually be a huge difference. To a purist its insulting but this is tame compared to a lot of the gamey things that happen.
In a P-51 of either flavor you should ALWAYS burn the AUX tank first even if you carry drop tanks. The plane is unstable until the rear tank has burned down some (I usually burn it down to at least 50%) and this is accurate by real world standards. Pilots from WWII were instructed to do the same and there is no shame in it.
Knowing details like this is important but even more important is being able to discern a bandits fuel state through observation of his turn quality. The faster you can learn to do that the more engagements you will survive.
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You might think so... but that is wrong. What you refer to as "100th wee bit extra" can actually be a huge difference. To a purist its insulting but this is tame compared to a lot of the gamey things that happen.
In a P-51 of either flavor you should ALWAYS burn the AUX tank first even if you carry drop tanks. The plane is unstable until the rear tank has burned down some (I usually burn it down to at least 50%) and this is accurate by real world standards. Pilots from WWII were instructed to do the same and there is no shame in it.
Knowing details like this is important but even more important is being able to discern a bandits fuel state through observation of his turn quality. The faster you can learn to do that the more engagements you will survive.
You're right. The %50 and DT thing isn't as bad as some of the more dire gamey things, but it still lends to the arcade gamers play style. Oh well, not this cat. When I take up a P51x, I only take DT's when doing the long range escort duty otherwise it is always %75 to %100. As far as burning the AUF tank first, I'll gladly try it out. I had not heard of that one before. I did a quick search and didnt find any info on the 'net regarding P51 pilots burning specific tanks first. There are videos on YT narrating the F4U and Spitfire references I made.
You game the game as you like, but I wont ever blame my losing a dogfite because of me not doing the %50 and DT thingy. ;)
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You might think so... but that is wrong. What you refer to as "100th wee bit extra" can actually be a huge difference. To a purist its insulting but this is tame compared to a lot of the gamey things that happen.
In a P-51 of either flavor you should ALWAYS burn the AUX tank first even if you carry drop tanks. The plane is unstable until the rear tank has burned down some (I usually burn it down to at least 50%) and this is accurate by real world standards. Pilots from WWII were instructed to do the same and there is no shame in it.
Knowing details like this is important but even more important is being able to discern a bandits fuel state through observation of his turn quality. The faster you can learn to do that the more engagements you will survive.
agreed fully. Aux tank first
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sort of unrelated question... but does having, say, all fuel you ever had on one wing, and then nothing in the other wing, does that throw off the balance of the aircraft?
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If your flying a spitfire always use the following order:
1. Drop
2. Wings (keep it an automatic it will keep switching left and right)
3. Top
4. Bottom (if your in a Spit14 you want to RTB as soon as you start using your bottom tank, it's very small)
The reason why the Bottom fuel tank is the last is because it is armored and self sealing, other are not, if you get a fuel left there is a 99% chance it will not be your bottom tank. The others are self explanatory.
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Spitfires (1, 5, 8, 9, 14): When the time comes to burn off either the bottom or top tank, manually burn the top tank first. It helps with roll capability. This is historically accurate, they would burn the top tank first as they climbed for altitude. The Spit16 already has "sooper"-roll capability, so no need to worry about that model, just fly it and land the easy-mode kills. ;)
How exactly does a top fuel tank help with roll rate? It's in the center.
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sort of unrelated question... but does having, say, all fuel you ever had on one wing, and then nothing in the other wing, does that throw off the balance of the aircraft?
Absolutely. Most aircraft are not even allowed to fly like that.
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wow. well, you could, with it having a big difference particularly in a bomber with massive fuel tanks. if one got shot up, you would have fuel on one side, but not the other. am i right, or do i have no idea what im talking about?
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wow. well, you could, with it having a big difference particularly in a bomber with massive fuel tanks. if one got shot up, you would have fuel on one side, but not the other. am i right, or do i have no idea what im talking about?
Bombers have multiple fuel tanks in each wing so this would not happen, also I don't know about WWII but modern large aircraft can transfer fuel from one tank to another to keep it balanced. If you have more fuel in one wing, your airplane will be one wing heavy and want to roll to that side all the time.
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Yes absolutely burn AUX first. In the original aircraft the AUX tank level could be read by looking over your left shoulder. In the P-51 the fuel selector is between the pilots legs and the AH AUX tank would be called Fuse Tank in the actual airplane. It holds 85 gallons and according to the Pilots Flight Operating Instructions the pilot should be especially careful anytime the fuselage tanks has more than 25 gallons. It also warns about doing any form of aerobatics with more than 40 gallons in the fuselage tank. What happens is the stick reverses on the initiation of turns and you have to push forward on the stick due to a tail heavy condition. The same thing happens upon any elevator application. This is reversability. Early in the production of the D model counterweights were added to the elevators which really helped but didnt totally remove reversability.
When using drop tanks the pilots were instructed to maintain only normal flight conditions regardless of the internal fuel state.
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not convinced about the spit top tank, its so close to the roll axis I cant see it making much difference. If it was drained first I suspect it was more to avoid a leak pouring all the fuel into the cockpit. just a guess though. in AH I cant even remember the last time I got a fuel hit in a spit (unlike the jug where its every other sortie...)
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Absolutely. Most aircraft are not even allowed to fly like that.
But the F4U is. ;) Watch from about 1:25 onward. It offers instruction on fuel, flaps, and maneuvers. :aok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PwTTQz6Zw&NR=1
I'm off to find the video of why Spitfire's burn the top before the bottom fuel tank.
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For MachFly and why spitfires burn the top tank first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
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For MachFly and why spitfires burn the top tank first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
is it me or does the youtube vidio not match the discussion?
bortas :headscratch:
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For MachFly and why spitfires burn the top tank first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0&NR=1&feature=fvwp
:headscratch:
Wrong link?
I know why Spitfires burn their top fuel tank first (I explained it on the first page), it's not because it helps with roll rate. If your going to point me to a video that says "Spitfire rolls better with a top fuel tank empty" I will not believe it, it does not make any sense. The top fuel tank is in the center, it has no effect on the roll rate.
Tell you what, there might be a minor change in roll rate but you will need a computer to realize it, there is no way a human will be able to feel it.
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But the F4U is. ;) Watch from about 1:25 onward. It offers instruction on fuel, flaps, and maneuvers. :aok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PwTTQz6Zw&NR=1
I'm off to find the video of why Spitfire's burn the top before the bottom fuel tank.
Right, the video says to burn off your wing tanks first and start with your left one. But it does not say to fly with your left tank empty and right tank full.
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The reason the Spit uses fuel out of the left wing first is because unburned fuel is returned to that tank through the vapor return line. Its the same way in the P-51 except the early models had the fuel return to the left wing tank while later models returned fuel to the fuse tanke. And so a pilot needed to discover which tank was his return tank and burn that one first. The consequence of not doing it right would be unstable flight if too much accumulated in the fuse tank (at up to 10gals/hr it adds up quickly) or lost fuel through the overflow line. This is not modeled in AH though it might be taken into consideration in overall fuel burn rates.
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Challenge, my reading of the Spit MkXIV pilots notes is that fuel should be burnt from the 'main' tanks until the contents of the top tank hits the 'red' mark and then a transfer FROM the wing tanks is completed. Thus re-filling the top tank.
I cant tell if the fuel is actually ever directly burnt from the wing tanks. I dont think it is.
If I recall correctly, the spitfire top tank may actaully automatically drain into the bottom tank. The top tank has 36 gallons, the bottom has 49 gallons, the wings have 13 each.
It would be cool to have a 'transfer' selector, however if you forget to turn it off, the main tank can lose pressurisation on the SPit XIV :-)
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Challenge, my reading of the Spit MkXIV pilots notes is that fuel should be burnt from the 'main' tanks until the contents of the top tank hits the 'red' mark and then a transfer FROM the wing tanks is completed. Thus re-filling the top tank.
I cant tell if the fuel is actually ever directly burnt from the wing tanks. I dont think it is.
If I recall correctly, the spitfire top tank may actaully automatically drain into the bottom tank. The top tank has 36 gallons, the bottom has 49 gallons, the wings have 13 each.
It would be cool to have a 'transfer' selector, however if you forget to turn it off, the main tank can lose pressurisation on the SPit XIV :-)
Sounds about right, but since we don't have such features in AH we are forced to use the ordered I listed on the first page.
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I dont have the Spit XIV book but I am not aware of a fuel transfer feature in any fighter from WWII so thats a new one to me.
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the notes for IX/XI/XVI say top tank 48gal, which just drains by gravity into the lower (self-sealed) 37gal tank.
so it seems that AH spits empty tanks in the right order, they are just mislabelled.
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the notes for IX/XI/XVI say top tank 48gal, which just drains by gravity into the lower (self-sealed) 37gal tank.
so it seems that AH spits empty tanks in the right order, they are just mislabelled.
As you said in reality you take the fuel from the bottom tank and the top drains into the bottom tank as it becomes empty, but in AH if you star using the bottom tank you will have an empty bottom tank and a full top tank.
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so really none of the spits apart from the VIII should have selectable tanks, and that should be just wing or main. although I cant imagine why you wouldnt want to always drain the wings first.
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Sirs, i dont gave too much experience with it, but for me, the automatic selection works the best. In the 152, if you burn the forward tank first, it will be completely unflyable, if you burn the aft first, it will be a dog, and still has the nasty tailspin habit. Same with the 262, so i think its the best to leave it on auto (maybe burn the wing tanks first). I have no experience with allied rides tho.
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F4Us:
F4U-1/1A - Depends on your fuel load. I prefer rolling 100% fuel. I burn the Left Wing to 25% and Right Wing to 50% (actual pattern: Left to 50, Right to 75, Left to 25, Right to 50) before switching to Main for the duration of the flight. This does two things: 1) helps balance the aircraft vs. torque and 2) provides a reserve for when the main tank inevitably springs a leak from a single-ping .303.
F4U-1C/D, 4 - No real decision to make unless you're hauling drop tanks. In which case you can just leave it on auto select and let the external tanks drain first.
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So complicated, I like my 109 :neener:
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So complicated, I like my 109 :neener:
:lol
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You like it until you get a hole in it.... :noid
For the 190a8, as well as the p-51s, you burn the aux first, then back to auto.
For almost all planes in the game auto will work just fine. It's the special little instances where you get a very minor benefit from, say, burning left wing over right wing.
As for the comment about the P-40E, don't burn main first. The "Main" is actually very well centered low in the wing. There is another tank behind the cockpit that is more destabilizing. It's a large one too. I forget what it's called, maybe FUSE in the AH fuel selection list.
See:
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-40/P-40FuelSys.pdf
Burn it first. However, please note the last time I recall looking the AH auto fuel drain selection on the P-40E already did this. No need to manually select it.
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The one time you manual select on any airplane is when its one that carries a drop tank. Especially in the P-51 you ALWAYS want to burn AUX first.
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As far as burning the AUF tank first, I'll gladly try it out. I had not heard of that one before. I did a quick search and didnt find any info on the 'net regarding P51 pilots burning specific tanks first.
While I don't think it was official standard operating procedures, Mustang pilots did tend to burn off the fuel in the rear tank first due to CG issues. At least that's how it was explained to me when I had asked a 479th veteran.
ack-ack
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In the 190 I always burn the aft first to just a slim amount something like 1/6th or so just for a final burn. Once that aft is burrned off, the plane performace improves a lot (especially in the A models). The Ta is so unstable anyway no matter what you burn, but I follow the same procidure.
For the 109, I lt the auto do its work after the aux is cooked off.