Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: dbh991 on March 26, 2011, 02:10:25 PM
-
Before flying any PC sims I had flown many different types of real gliders for about 10 years. My first PC sim was Condor and I bought a set of rudder pedals (CH Pro) to go with the stick. For safety I didn't want to develop any bad habits on the sim that might transfer over into real piloting, such as uncoordinated turns by not using the feet.
Anyway, the first thing I noticed about the CH pedals was the self-centering springs, and the rather strong self-centering tendency. I knew that at least for gliders this was totally bogus. All gliders I have flown (quite a few different types/models) have essentially no tendency to "self center". Maybe a little at very high speeds. So I felt compelled to open up the pedals and remove the springs. This resulted in a *far* more realistic pedal feel.
My question: Is it more realistic for WWII fighters to have rudder pedals with a strong self centering force? Or is the self centering weak-to-non-existent? I still have the springs for my pedals and can put them back in. When flying a fighter in AH now I always use the skid balls to assure that I am flying straight and have zero reliance on pedal pressure feedback (there is none).
TIA
-
I believe PC controllers have centering springs so that you can hit auto pilot and go get a beer. :cheers:
It's not like you can trim the force off the controller and it will stay in place.
-
Before flying any PC sims I had flown many different types of real gliders for about 10 years. My first PC sim was Condor and I bought a set of rudder pedals (CH Pro) to go with the stick. For safety I didn't want to develop any bad habits on the sim that might transfer over into real piloting, such as uncoordinated turns by not using the feet.
Anyway, the first thing I noticed about the CH pedals was the self-centering springs, and the rather strong self-centering tendency. I knew that at least for gliders this was totally bogus. All gliders I have flown (quite a few different types/models) have essentially no tendency to "self center". Maybe a little at very high speeds. So I felt compelled to open up the pedals and remove the springs. This resulted in a *far* more realistic pedal feel.
My question: Is it more realistic for WWII fighters to have rudder pedals with a strong self centering force? Or is the self centering weak-to-non-existent? I still have the springs for my pedals and can put them back in. When flying a fighter in AH now I always use the skid balls to assure that I am flying straight and have zero reliance on pedal pressure feedback (there is none).
TIA
While I've never flown a WWII plane in real life (my limited experience is in the Cessna 172) I believe that any plane that uses 'manual' controls will not have any self centering force while sitting still. As the air speed increases, the centering force will increase as well due to airflow trying to push the rudder straight, so flying with your springs removed may be just as unrealistic as leaving them in would be, if not more so! Just like driving a car, if you turn the wheels while sitting still and let go of the steering wheel, they will stay turned. Repeat this test while moving and the wheel will center itself (unless you've got serious alignment issues!)
My G940 stick does a decent job of recreating this 'centering' effect on the ailerons and elevators, however the rudder pedals are manually centered with a spring. As far as I know there are no 'force feedback' pedals available (at least at an affordable price) to provide the realistic feel you are looking for.
-
Unachieveable. I can tell when I get tired flying AH because I lose track of where the pedals are. When I fly my DG that doesnt happen because you can always feel it even if you lose orientation.
-
Unachieveable. I can tell when I get tired flying AH because I lose track of where the pedals are.
Why do you lose track? Are your AH pedals not spring self-centering? Or is it something else you are referring to such as lack of a yaw string in AH? Or do your legs get tired fighting the pedal springs? Or mental fatigue watching the skid ball? Or?
When I fly my DG that doesnt happen because you can always feel it even if you lose orientation.
What is it that you "feel" in your DG? Self centering pressure from the pedals on the soles of your feet?
-
The problem is there is no "seat of the pants" feel to aid you in positioning your controls. Triming and centering MUST be done by eye and in a fight can really hurt your ability to maneuver. Having the "detents" for centering of your controls helps you get back to neutral with out having to spend the time to look at the gauges.
-
Why do you lose track? Are your AH pedals not spring self-centering? Or is it something else you are referring to such as lack of a yaw string in AH? Or do your legs get tired fighting the pedal springs? Or mental fatigue watching the skid ball? Or?
What is it that you "feel" in your DG? Self centering pressure from the pedals on the soles of your feet?
Just imagine yourself in a car that turns left but you feel like the car is skidding to the left... its all wrong. Its not precisely the same but still slips and skids just dont feel right. Im a pretty big guy and those little springs dont take much to overwhelm but if I lift my foot off the pedal I can hear them go to center. Thats all Im really saying. Otherwise... what Fugitive said.
-
The problem is there is no "seat of the pants" feel to aid you in positioning your controls. Triming and centering MUST be done by eye and in a fight can really hurt your ability to maneuver. Having the "detents" for centering of your controls helps you get back to neutral with out having to spend the time to look at the gauges.
I have reinstalled the springs and now have a couple hours time with them. You are right, the instant self-centering with detents is a help in flying AH. I don't believe this behavior is "normal" for real aircraft and hope I don't develop bad reflex habits that carry over to my real flying. I guess there are just some non-realistic behaviors that we accept when "flying" a sim, and spring loaded pedals with centering detents is one (it need not be, but one is likely more competitive in AH by using them).
Thanks to all for the feedback!
-
Pedal springs are so light that if you do get used to them you'll just wonder why real pedals aren't moving when you push lightly on them.
-
I don't believe this behavior is "normal" for real aircraft and hope I don't develop bad reflex habits that carry over to my real flying.
You are correct, neither behavior (with or without springs) is normal for a real aircraft. Without springs would be closest to simulating a plane sitting still on the ground or during very low air speeds, and with springs is closest to simulating a plane at normal air speeds. To get the best of both worlds, you'd need force feedback, and as far as I know there are no 'consumer' grade rudder pedals like this. I'm sure there are commercial simulators out there that do simulate this, but I doubt anyone here could afford to purchase and install those to their PC, and even if they did I'm not sure Aces High even bothers to emulate a force feedback for the rudder surfaces anyway.
As far as carrying these 'bad habits' over to real aircraft... well I wouldn't worry so much about that. The human mind is an incredible thing and if it will know the difference. Just keep in mind that using rudder pedals (albeit with an unrealistic feel) is still more realistic than using the keyboard or a twisty stick for rudder, and that will transfer much more fluently to a real aircraft. What you're worried about would be like driving an M3 for twenty miles with the joystick on Aces High and then getting in your car and expecting your bad habits from driving with the joystick to interfere with your driving skills! It's just not going to happen. It's not like I accidentally try to steer with the floor shifter....
-
You are correct, neither behavior (with or without springs) is normal for a real aircraft. Without springs would be closest to simulating a plane sitting still on the ground or during very low air speeds,
I disagree with *very* low speeds. I have flown many new/high-tech gliders at 70+ mph and there is almost no self centering feedback from the rudder pedals.
As far as carrying these 'bad habits' over to real aircraft... well I wouldn't worry so much about that.
I do. Because it is the low speed operation that kills. Usually during landing approach while turning onto base leg or turning onto final approach. If you let the aircraft get uncoordinated in these low speed turns there can be hell to pay.
-
I disagree with *very* low speeds. I have flown many new/high-tech gliders at 70+ mph and there is almost no self centering feedback from the rudder pedals.
I do. Because it is the low speed operation that kills. Usually during landing approach while turning onto base leg or turning onto final approach. If you let the aircraft get uncoordinated in these low speed turns there can be hell to pay.
I consider 70MPH to be low speed when it comes to many planes. You also have to remember that gliders weigh almost nothing. Comparing that to a passenger plane (or WWII even) and there is a HUGE difference.
I'm not disagreeing with you that the Rudder pedals we have available to us aren't realistic, I'm just saying it's the best they've got out that is available to us. A force-feedback rudder pedal solution would be idea, but I have yet to see one in the consumer-grade marketplace.
-
I'm not disagreeing with you that the Rudder pedals we have available to us aren't realistic, I'm just saying it's the best they've got out that is available to us. A force-feedback rudder pedal solution would be idea, but I have yet to see one in the consumer-grade marketplace.
Understood. I refuse to use a sim without rudder pedals and a TrackIR. Reflex habits of twisting the stick for yaw and not keeping my head on a swivel are habits I don't want. I would pay quite a bit extra for force-feedback pedals for safety reasons. Probably I should just again remove the centering springs/detent and accept the slight competitive disadvantage in AH. Thanks for the feedback. Pun intended.
-
Before flying any PC sims I had flown many different types of real gliders for about 10 years...
It's official: I am green with envy. ;)
The only a/c I've piloted out here in RL have been a few small Cessnas and Pipers, and the rudders of those stayed centered for me at cruising and pattern speeds. <shrug>
-
The only a/c I've piloted out here in RL have been a few small Cessnas and Pipers, and the rudders of those stayed centered for me at cruising and pattern speeds. <shrug>
So the rudder pedals in the Cessnas and Pipers have a distinct "detent" so you know just by feel (with your feet/legs) when the rudder is centered? This would be in addition to the self centering pressure you feel even when in the landing pattern? Put another way: When you take both feet off the rudder pedals while flying (all airspeeds) do the pedals always "self-snap" to a perfectly centered position?
-
So the rudder pedals in the Cessnas and Pipers have a distinct "detent" so you know just by feel (with your feet/legs) when the rudder is centered? This would be in addition to the self centering pressure you feel even when in the landing pattern? Put another way: When you take both feet off the rudder pedals while flying (all airspeeds) do the pedals always "self-snap" to a perfectly centered position?
Well, no. There's not a "click" that I felt in the middle of their travel, but if I relaxed all pressure on the pedals, they centered. Maybe not a "self-snap" as you put it, but they did return to center.
-
Well, no. There's not a "click" that I felt in the middle of their travel, but if I relaxed all pressure on the pedals, they centered. Maybe not a "self-snap" as you put it, but they did return to center.
Which reinforces my post.. there is no PERFECT solution that dbh991 is wanting.
He's being entirely anal about the whole deal, and the benefits of the experience to be gained by flying a sim (albeit with somewhat unrealistic rudder controls) GREATLY OUTWEIGHS any 'bad habits' that would be formed by using those somewhat unrealistic rudder pedals.
DBH, as I stated before.. it's not that I'm disagreeing with you here. The detent in the center *IS* unrealistic, however for an affordable device using springs it's a necessary evil. What do you want me to do here? Post a link to a magical set of rudder pedals that will PERFECTLY EMULATE how they work in real life? It's not going to happen. I would imagine that there are some commercial-grade feedback rudder pedals available somewhere, but I have a feeling that most flight sims don't even process the feedback signal on the rudder axis (although I could be wrong), so chances are that even if you shelled out thousands of dollars to get a set, they still wouldn't work!
No matter how 'unrealistic' the controls may seem, a simulator is still going to be sub-par as compared to real life. Yes, certain things can be done to make it closer such as feedback controls and head tracking... and with the invent (check that.. it's been around for a long time... I should have said affordability) of 3-D technologies.. yes it's getting closer but no matter what you'll NEVER have a perfect reproduction of the real thing. Then you have the lack of external inputs. In a simulator, you're sitting in a chair. In real life, you can feel the g-forces. You can feel the plane move. You can feel if the 'ball isn't centered'. In a simulator you have to use visual cues to determine all of that. Reading the ball becomes a lot more important, because you don't have the 'feel' of it to go along with it all. Even if you have one of those simulators that moves around, it's still not quite the same.
THAT IN ITSELF can cause you to develop 'bad habits' as far as actual flying goes, so by using your logic, you shouldn't be flying any kind of sim at all. Period.
I don't know what you want here. Neither flying with the springs installed nor flying with them removed is realistic. We can argue all day as to which is 'closer' to being realistic but really it comes down to what YOU WANT. If you want to fly around with the springs removed from your rudders, then by all means do so... just remember, flying powered aircraft is different than flying gliders. You're also forgetting about trim forces. The rudders won't return 'to center', rather they will center themselves based on where your rudder trim is set. Think of that center detent as being a 'cue' to tell you something that you would normally be able to feel in real life.
Let's be realistic here though... if you have real life piloting experience, then playing a sim with an 'unrealistic' rudder pedals isn't going to make you crash and burn during low speed landing maneuvers in real life. I've driven racing games with a non-feedback steering wheel that had a bit of detent at the centered position and so far that hasn't made me wreck my car. Like I said before, give your brain more credit and quit second guessing this.
-
having some time in singles, twins and a little in an AT6 I can give you my experience. You will have pressure (and can be quite a lot in a twin with one engine out) unless and until you "trim" it out. At slower speeds you tend to have less pressure on all the control surfaces as there is less air pressure on them. Many times weights are added to give you enough stick force to let you know you are moving them.
I used to use the old (big) ThrustMaster peddles that when i had my FCLS setup and that gave me a pretty realistic feel and the same habits crossed back to real planes. I never found that the CH stuff had enough pressure. I've never flown a glider so I have no idea what those feel like but I can tell you that Cessna's, Mooney's, Piper's and Beechcraft all can have quite a lot of peddle (and stick) pressures. As an example when doing my multi-engine they didn't want us to trim out the rudder so we would know how much rudder we were using with one engine out and how it varied depending on the power/airspeed we were using at the time.
shdo
-
From what I can tell, most WWII fighters and bombers had a tendancy to self center becuase the control surfaces were directly linked (or through a series of gears and pulleys) to the flight yoke/ stick or pedals that controlled the respective serfice. The confusion that I see going on is that in your glider, your control serfices are a bit smaller than in other types of planes. You are also not fly at such high speeds so your controls tend not to center themselves. Realisticly the force you would feel would be a result of the speed of the plane, the air density, the size of the control serfice, and any transfer ratios between the controls and the control serfice. So to answer your question, there would be some degree of centering force expected with the flight controls, but since most planes have different sizes, speeds, and ratios the force will be different. If you want to overcome this, buy a force-feedback joystick which will simulate a more realistic feel.
-
I think pc flight sims help with RL flying. They act as procedure trainers and they are usually a lot more sensitive, (P in the A,) then real AC this helps greatly with the tendency to overcontrol that a lot of new pilots have. The rudder thing is never realistic. The biggest problem with PC sims I would argue is the lack of anykind of realistic trim. As for overall realism I know if I was pulling 5gs and other such stuff I'd be sitting in a puddle of vomit or at least breaking a sweat. I think they can only help, not hurt. Now, that Nintendo Wii thats another thing altogether.