Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Butcher on April 14, 2011, 04:17:31 PM
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Does anyone have a graph or something to show me the range to set certain weapons? having a hard time trying to figure out how far Browning 50s or Ho-5's go etc.
Basically want to know the ball park area to set my guns, for example a spit8 has 303s and 20mms, do I set the 303s to 350 and 20's to 425?
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No easy answer for that, because convergence settings depends a lot on your flying and your usual shooting distances.
In a pure .303 fighter (like Spit or Hurri I), you don't really want to shoot much beyond 200-250, so a close convergence (like 200) makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, if you are flying less maneuverable but fast, and more heavily armed fighters in LW, you may often have to fire at longer ranges.
In the case of the Spit 8, I have the 20mm at D350 and the .303s at D200. The Brownings are not very efficient at long rnages, so I shoot the Hispano's only, using the machine guns only to augment (or substitute) the cannon firepower at close ranges.
For most players, I usually recommend leaving all guns but the rifle-caliber pea shooters at D350.
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Ah ok, I've had everything set for 350, seems it works out alright, I read some set for 650 but I don't see that happening.
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Consider the distance you typically hit at.
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Best advice I can give you is to set conv. to or near the distance you most often shoot from.
I rarely shoot past 200 yards so it make no sense to have my convergence set out to 400yds.
Go into the training arena and use the .target command,you can set the target at various ranges and can observe the different bullet patterns you convergences have.
hope that helps.
:salute
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Much appreciated, I will have to do some more TA flights and work out the general dynamics, so far best I figure is 350-375 is roughly where I start shooting, unless I can get closer, but I haven't yet to figure out dogfighting to get close enough to 200.
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When the icon changes from 400 (500-300) to 200 300-100) your range is 300. Set your convergence for 300 and close until you get the change, then let them have it !
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On Spit8 I got my 30 cals set to 275 and 20mms set to 300. I usually fire at 400, works well.
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Generally speaking, trying to set and shoot cannons much beyond 300 is not going to work well.
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Generally speaking, trying to set and shoot cannons much beyond 300 is not going to work well.
Yeah I made a few 600 Sprays and obviously ended up no good, straight and level you have a shot to ding up a plane but nothing fancy,
I try to end up on a deflection shot around when target changes from 400 to 200. But I still am having problem learning the balistics.
From what I gather so far -
German Mk108 is by far the worse, best set for 250
Russian 20mm - 250
Japanese HO-5 best set for 250-275
German Mg-151 best set for 300
German 13mm best set for 300
Japanese 13mm - 300
American 50 cal - 350
American M2 - 350
British Hispanos - 350
British 303 - 250
Is this roughly a ballpark figure? I would like to write this down once finished so I can change the planes accordingly, another question is on the convergence of for example the 6x50 cals, Would I have all guys aimed at 350 (example) or do I stack 300/325/350?
I would assume to have all guns set for the same convergence, only plane I can think that would require more then one convergence is the P47 based on the 8x50s, but I haven't flown a Jug really to know this.
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I would not use so many different. It doesn't help that much. After a long time of tinkering & testing, I finally have 350 on all my guns but .303's (and the Me 262, where I use a special "shotgun" setting)
For the scissoring convergence, see this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=291419.5 with a lot of data and a few very illustrative graphs.
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I would not use so many different. It doesn't help that much. After a long time of tinkering & testing, I finally have 350 on all my guns but .303's (and the Me 262, where I use a special "shotgun" setting)
For the scissoring convergence, see this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=291419.5 with a lot of data and a few very illustrative graphs.
Thanks, and I apologize for making a thread which already was answered before hands, I didn't use the search to well! :)
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Thanks, and I apologize for making a thread which already was answered before hands, I didn't use the search to well! :)
No worries, the search fuction is currently messed up quite a bit anyways. If you don't find the answer, never hesitate to ask in here :aok
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I like 275. The trick is to discipline yourself to shoot as close to your convergence as possible.
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I like to set my convergence to max range when making an attack run on ground targets.
Perhaps it's merely the placebo effect, but I seem to have a better time dealing with the ack when I have that extra few hundred yards as a buffer while engaging.
:salute
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I like to set my convergence to max range when making an attack run on ground targets.
Perhaps it's merely the placebo effect, but I seem to have a better time dealing with the ack when I have that extra few hundred yards as a buffer while engaging.
It certainly is no placebo effect, as one usually opens up fire at ground targets at considerably longer ranges than at air targets.
However, for the average player there is a (in my opinion) significant disadvantage to it: When fighting enemy fighters when being in such a "atg mode", you will have to adjust your mental picture accordingly to the different convergence setting. Flying with variable settings for the same gun can be confusing. Been there, done that. Early in my AH career I had different settings for the same guns in different planes, as some fighters I did use for hunting buffs (=longer distance) while in others I did furball more (=closer distance). I gave that up for the KISS principle.
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Yeah I made a few 600 Sprays and obviously ended up no good, straight and level you have a shot to ding up a plane but nothing fancy,
I try to end up on a deflection shot around when target changes from 400 to 200. But I still am having problem learning the balistics.
From what I gather so far -
German Mk108 is by far the worse, best set for 250
Russian 20mm - 250
Japanese HO-5 best set for 250-275
German Mg-151 best set for 300
German 13mm best set for 300
Japanese 13mm - 300
American 50 cal - 350
American M2 - 350
British Hispanos - 350
British 303 - 250
Is this roughly a ballpark figure? I would like to write this down once finished so I can change the planes accordingly, another question is on the convergence of for example the 6x50 cals, Would I have all guys aimed at 350 (example) or do I stack 300/325/350?
I would assume to have all guns set for the same convergence, only plane I can think that would require more then one convergence is the P47 based on the 8x50s, but I haven't flown a Jug really to know this.
Keep it simple. For your air to air fighters, set all guns to the same 300 yards (from Spitfires to P38's to P47's). Remember that setting your convergence is also setting your trajectory. If you set it at 600 yards your shots will be significantly high at 300. Trust the vets when they say "inside 400 yards". Most of your shots will be within 400 yards, anything further and the chance diminishes rather quickly. The only time I ever fire at something 600 or further is when they are going dead away and that is far and few between.
When you are bomber hunting, by all means stretch it out a wee bit more to 400 or 450 yards. Same for ground attack. When the range indicator says "400", you are within the 201 to 400 yard range. When it says 600 yards, you are within 401 to 600 yards range.
Some people stagger, i do not. My theory is when you hit you want to hit hard and concentrated, not scattered out.
Keep it simple, keep it standardized, and learn quicker. Do not try and thread the needle with all the different calibers.
Trust me, let go. Use the Force! :aok
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If you want to know what your rounds are doing, here is how you find out.
Offline set your convergence then take off, head north on auto level and wait for your fighter to hit top level speed where the nose stops lowering. Pull up your target starting at 100 and go to 400. Fire your guns at every 50 yards using full zoom and keep track of how high above or how low below the center of your gunsight the rounds pattern. The center line of your aircraft is locked with the center of the target at any range as far as I could ever test for.
Target = 180ft dia.
Target@1000yds = 60mil dia. graticule in gunsight.
At 200yds/600ft a fighter wingspan fills a 60mil graticule ring. Smallest ring setting for the K14 Gyro sight.
The traditional german Revi sights have tick marks that can help you estimate a grid. If you have mixed caliber guns then fire one caliber and record the pattern then the other caliber. Also keep an eye on the dispersion cloud at each distance. What looks like a 2x2 pattern at 150 is smaller than a 2x2 pattern at 400. Those dispersion patterns have a lot do with why your best range to hit anything is closer to 200(+or-).
Make the following grid and graph it to see your trajectorys.
Aicraft-X---Conv=X
Gun---100---150---200---250---300---350---400
30c
50c
20m
30m
37m
Do the same but record the dispersion cloud grid.
Aicraft-X---Conv=X
Gun---100---150---200---250---300---350---400
30c
50c
20m
30m
37m
For extra credit do a third graph where you document only how far above or below the center of your gunsight is in relation to the horizontal red line on the target at each distance. Then superimpose that line over the trajectory line on your graph. Then impose the dispersion patterns at each distance as a small circle on each vertical distance line. The center of your gunsight starts about 80cm above the centerline of your aircraft at distance "0".
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I like 275. The trick is to discipline yourself to shoot as close to your convergence as possible.
I agree, and this is how I've had mine set for years. I played around with it a lot, but have settled on 275 as best for me.
As mentioned, when the icon switches from D400 to D200, your really at 300yards. Assuming it takes you a second or two to finalize your aim, it's easy to know you're gawdawful-dang-close to being at "perfect" range for maximum effect from your guns.
To be honest, switching your convergence around and watching the effect with the dot-target will teach you a lot about what your guns are doing. But... I doubt you'll be able to find a more effective convergence setting, particularly for wing-mounted guns. I think it's a needless handicap to have different planes set for different convergences. And, a setting of 275 won't hurt your effectiveness on bombers or ground targets enough to be worth worrying about.
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I'm one of the very few who sets convergence to maximum (D650) for most guns.
I set anything smaller than 13mm/.50cal and all Japanese and Russian cannons to D400, otherwise everything else is set to D650 unless it's a mixed set (i.e. .303's and Hispanos) where I'll set all guns to D400 because I always use point convergence and set to the weakest gun in the set.
I generally fire at D400 and most camps hold a hit% around 12%. During BoG I posted a screenshot of myself lighting up a P-38 from D1000 with the 30mm's in a FW190A-8. I still have the screen shot for any disbelievers.
Anyway it works for me. Your mileage may vary.
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My personal preference is on average "400". For the FW190-D9 and since if fires from basically a centerline, 650 is that one ... again for me. I mainly use it buff hunting. I also flew it during the latter frames in BoG and was mostly a buff hunter! :devil
As previously stated, using the "offline" target (.target XXX) set at various ranges, mixed guns are generally the same for me but some heavier caliber rounds, like 30MM, I add 50 to give it a bit more convergence opportunity with a 20MM or MG round. If I set MG or 20MM to 350, then I set the 30MM to 400..and so on. The FW190-A8 has both 20MM and 30MM options. I started using the 30MM first time in BoG. There I set 20MM to 400 and 30MM to 450 in the A8 for the primary job of killing bombers..
Battle over Germany Scenario
http://www.kkenshome.com/bog.html
Look for the slideshows at the left side of the web page.
(http://www.kkenshome.com/BoGFrame4/26Fireveryclose.jpg)
(http://www.kkenshome.com/BoGFrame4/28externalview.jpg)
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Yeah I made a few 600 Sprays and obviously ended up no good, straight and level you have a shot to ding up a plane but nothing fancy,
I try to end up on a deflection shot around when target changes from 400 to 200. But I still am having problem learning the balistics.
From what I gather so far -
German Mk108 is by far the worse, best set for 250
Russian 20mm - 250
Japanese HO-5 best set for 250-275
German Mg-151 best set for 300
German 13mm best set for 300
Japanese 13mm - 300
American 50 cal - 350
American M2 - 350
British Hispanos - 350
British 303 - 250
Is this roughly a ballpark figure? I would like to write this down once finished so I can change the planes accordingly, another question is on the convergence of for example the 6x50 cals, Would I have all guys aimed at 350 (example) or do I stack 300/325/350?
I would assume to have all guns set for the same convergence, only plane I can think that would require more then one convergence is the P47 based on the 8x50s, but I haven't flown a Jug really to know this.
Have to say that the US 37mm is way worse than the Mk108. The MGFF cannons in the Emil aren't too good either.
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Have to say that the US 37mm is way worse than the Mk108. The MGFF cannons in the Emil aren't too good either.
Oops, forgot about those. Th MGFF's arent much good beyond about 250 but I did land three fihter kills in a 109E-4 last week using that convergence.
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One thing that is being left out is where the gun is on the plane you are using. For nose mounted guns like the P-38, Mossie, etc it doesn't really matter much because there is no convergence. In fact, p-38 pilots had no convergence set on their guns. The guys in the Pacific especially just had things set at max. they killed at maximum range so they would not get close in and get caught in a turn fight. Since the guns are in the nose, if you set it at 650 it will hit just as well at 200 due to the straight shot. I've tested this (and you can too) using the dot target command.
Now I noticed that some of the Russian and German that are also nose mounted are not exactly the same because even though they are nose mounted, they are on top of the cowling which means they are raised up a foot or so. These will be straight shots but a bit high at 650. so I use what little convergence there is a bit shorter to help bring it down similar to the end-nose guns. Why is it important to bring them down? Because many of those planes also have wing mounted guns. you may not realize it but you wing guns are much lower than your sight. So if you set your wing mounted guns to 150, at 150 they will hit lower than what you are aiming at. Extending the range raises up the shot. So if you have them set at 300 and you shoot someone at 150-200, it will be exactly where your sight is.
Another factor is cannons vs machine guns. Of course mg rounds are lighter and will start falling further away. My Seitek x52 joystick has a dual trigger. Pull slightly and primary rounds fire. Pull all the way and cannon (secondary) start firing. I have set other joysticks without this feature to only fire primary and use the top bombing button to fire cannons. Why? Again cause mg rounds go farther out. If I'm chasing someone and they are at 800-1000 and I want them to turn I'll fire some mg rounds. I have shot down plane at 800-1000 doing this, but mostly it's make them move. Cannon rounds fall too quickly and don't make it anywhere near.
Bottom line, play with the dot target command and see where certain setups hit.
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So if you set your wing mounted guns to 150, at 150 they will hit lower than what you are aiming at. Extending the range raises up the shot. So if you have them set at 300 and you shoot someone at 150-200, it will be exactly where your sight is.
That's not exactly true. Convergence is set to converge in both horizontal and vertical, therefore setting convergence to 150 should allow your rounds to hit the point your pipper is aimed at at exactly 150.
For me with most guns set to 650 I have to aim slightly low in closer (to a point) and high out further. I say to a point because in very close my rounds are still rising through their arc and therefor I may actually have to aim high when distances are very very short.
Regardless, I've developed a sight picture over time in most planes and aim/fire instinctively.
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you may not realize it but you wing guns are much lower than your sight. So if you set your wing mounted guns to 150, at 150 they will hit lower than what you are aiming at. Extending the range raises up the shot. So if you have them set at 300 and you shoot someone at 150-200, it will be exactly where your sight is.
Another factor is cannons vs machine guns. Of course mg rounds are lighter and will start falling further away.
If you set your convergence to 150, your bullets will cross throught he sight 150yards out. They won't hit low, even with wing-mounted guns. If you set it for 300, the rounds cross through the sight at 300yards. They won't cross through the sight at 150-200.
The deciding factor on the cannons vs machine gun rounds is the projectile velocity, not the weight. As odd as it may sound, the heavier projectile may actually have a flatter trajectory than a lighter projectile (again, depending on the speed, not the weight of the projectile).
Back to the 150yard setting with wing-mounted guns (I know you were just using it as an example)... While most settings are somewhat intuitive and forgiving, the close-in settings (200 or closer) are the opposite of intuitive, and just plain bad for the most part. The 150 yard setting will result in "low" hits out to 150, and then after that they'll be high. Godawful high, actually... 5ft high at 300 yards, and around nine feet high at 800 yards. Not only are they high, but they're way spread out too. So high and spread out that IMO hits at 300 yards and beyond would have a lot to do with luck.
There's probably a "sweet-spot" or at least a "sweet range" with wing-mounted .50's, and IMO it's right at around 300 yards. Convergence settings of less than that can be problematic (as shown), while settings much beyond that don't take full advantage of what the .50's have to offer in the way of "punch" (IMO).
Look at the screenshots near the end of this thread-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html
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been at this for a decade almost. i stagger them from 425 in. to get the kill, a good 1st bite will bring it to you.
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I set my 50 caliber for 1300 yards and 12.7 for 100 yards.
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Best advice I can give you is to set conv. to or near the distance you most often shoot from.
I rarely shoot past 200 yards so it make no sense to have my convergence set out to 400yds.
Go into the training arena and use the .target command,you can set the target at various ranges and can observe the different bullet patterns you convergences have.
hope that helps.
:salute
It all depends on what you crack your daily bread from...
If you have any notion of attacking bombers in formation at altitude and speed...200 range setting is a death sentence...because the focus point is miles outside of what the bombers are capable of...before you even get close you will be a fried side dish.
If you flop around on the deck or at mid alts and strictly go F v F ...I have no clue or comment
If you make a living on a run killing bombers...better stretch it out...and stretch it out big...or at least understand the limitations of your present setting
Oneway
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Best advice I can give you is to set conv. to or near the distance you most often shoot from.
I rarely shoot past 200 yards so it make no sense to have my convergence set out to 400yds.
It all depends on what you crack your daily bread from...
If you have any notion of attacking bombers in formation at altitude and speed...200 range setting is a death sentence...because the focus point is miles outside of what the bombers are capable of...before you even get close you will be a fried side dish.
If you flop around on the deck or at mid alts and strictly go F v F ...I have no clue or comment
If you make a living on a run killing bombers...better stretch it out...and stretch it out big...or at least understand the limitations of your present setting
Oneway
Really, that's not true. At least if we're talking about wing-mounted guns, which are the ones that really "matter" when it comes to convergence settings.
I'd recommend stretching them out a bit, as IMO 200 is too close to the "terrible" (IMO) setting of 150 displayed in the link I posted. But I would only move them out a little, to 275 or 300.
Doing that won't hurt their performance on bombers, even if you want to open up on them as far as 800yds out (which is a waste, IMO). I'd hold fire until about 400 yards though, so you don't waste nearly as much ammo. (Again, check the link I posted. Compare the 300yd convergence setting screen shots to the B17 profile.
The "200 range setting is a death sentence" comment really depends on your technique, not you convergence range. If you have good technique, a 200yd setting won't get you killed by bombers... With a 275 setting in an F4U, I've been able to kill up to 12 "untouched" bombers, and the "safety" provided by my technique has allowed me to do that.
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I regularly fly the F4U Series of aircraft and have my convergence set to 275. I hunt Bombers. I kill many Bomber Formations at this convergence.
I also kill fighters at this convergence.
Listen to mtnman...
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It all depends on what you crack your daily bread from...
If you have any notion of attacking bombers in formation at altitude and speed...200 range setting is a death sentence...because the focus point is miles outside of what the bombers are capable of...before you even get close you will be a fried side dish.
If you flop around on the deck or at mid alts and strictly go F v F ...I have no clue or comment
If you make a living on a run killing bombers...better stretch it out...and stretch it out big...or at least understand the limitations of your present setting
Oneway
Mtnman explained it clearly but if you read carefully what I wrote all I said was set you convergence to the range you usually shoot at. I never said set them to 200 I said I generally shoot at 200,sometimes closer I like to see D0 on the icon distance counter.
I will say that 275 is the longest convergence I have any gun set to and 200 is the closest and used only on center mount large cannons.
Of course YMMV!
:salute
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while were on the idea of convergence.. i normally set of nose guns out to 650...but it doesnt work like that with the tater. thoughts from you tater dweebs?
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while were on the idea of convergence.. i normally set of nose guns out to 650...but it doesnt work like that with the tater. thoughts from you tater dweebs?
Yes it does. I set the nose tater in the K-4 to 650 yards. Works great.
BTW here's that shot of me lighting up a P-38 from 1K with the taters on a FW190A-8. You can just see the hit sprite but the distance was too great to actually take him down:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/051KhitonP-38.jpg)
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Yes it does. I set the nose tater in the K-4 to 650 yards. Works great.
obviously it does, but it doesnt shoot like a normal round because its so heavy.
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obviously it does, but it doesnt shoot like a normal round because its so heavy.
It's not the weight, it's the speed (and shape). It doesn't fall appreciably faster than a lighter round, it just takes longer to get to the same spot (so it has more time to fall).
In some cases, the heavier round will actually shoot "flatter" than the the lighter round (out of the same gun).
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It's not the weight, it's the speed (and shape). It doesn't fall appreciably faster than a lighter round, it just takes longer to get to the same spot (so it has more time to fall).
In some cases, the heavier round will actually shoot "flatter" than the the lighter round (out of the same gun).
interesting. anyway I can test this offline or in the TA?
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interesting. anyway I can test this offline or in the TA?
No, not that I'm aware of. It doesn't really matter though, because HTC has the trajectories modeled very well, even the changes that result from firing up/down, inverted, banked, etc show up.
The point is that the rounds don't "fall faster", they just take longer to get to the same point, so have a longer time to fall...
If two rounds are fired at a 200yd target at the same time, but one travels twice as fast as the other, the slower round will drop twice as much as the other round. It "appears" to drop faster, even though it's dropping at roughly the same speed.
That doesn't matter much on a straight-away target, but it does on a crossing target (you'd need to lead twice as much for the slower round).
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All objects fall at the same rate regardless of weight in a vacum. Drag will impact the speed of lateral momentum and falling speed if there is an atmoshpere present. 1 pound of loose feathers in a pillow case versus a 1 pound lead ball dropped at the same moment.
The moment a round leaves the barrel of a gun it begins to travel towards the center of the earth. It does so in an arch because it was projected from the barrel with enough force that it is able to maintain a lateral momentum to the attraction force of gravity.
If 2 rounds are fired at a target 1000 yards away.
A. at 500m/sec
B. at 880/m/sec
Round (A) will fall farther towards the center of the earth befor it reaches 1000 yards because it has more time in transit than round (B). What happens when the two rounds get to the target depends on mass or whats inside of the round on impact.
This is why the NS-37 shoots flatter than the MK108. 880m/sec vs. 500m/sec. Mass is why the .50cal is more effective than the .30cal. Taking into account effective ranges because of down range V\Loss.
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I set all mine to 400, regardless of calibre. I find that if I'm inside 200, I usually end up colliding with my target. With a 400 setting, I can still hit outside 800 to "tickle" my target into maneuvering and allowing me to get closer.