Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RAM on February 17, 2000, 06:39:00 AM
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Much has been told and said about uberplanes..."I want the P47M" "I want the Ta152"...etc. I think great of those planes and want to see them, but IMO we need another plane: Fw190A-4
Every AH's Focke-Wuld driver will say you that the Fw190A-8 is too heavy to a Fighter vs fighter engagement. And we are right, the A8 was a bomber killer, heavily armored and with heavy weapons also. The A-4 was a pure figher, and outclimbed, outturned, outaccelerated the 190A-8 at any altitude. It was more lightly armored and armed (2 7.8mm MGs,2 MG151 20mm and 2 MG FF 20mm), but I'll alway trade that protection and firepower for those advantages-Anyway I always choose the 2MGs and 2cannons option-.
Also the A-4 was a widely used aircraft, very feared by the english Spitfires,that in 1942-44 were outclassed by the A-4 to A-6 Fw series.In a A-8 you must be a VERY good driver to win against a co-E Spitfire IX. Fw190A-4s eated Spits for breakfast.
So, please take in the Fw190A-4. You can take the 109F-4, in the future the SpitV...so please model the Anton-4. Thks for your time.
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I think the rumour was for the A-5, since it has the same longer nose/fuselage as the A-8.
I reckon having the less powerful A-2 somewhere down the line would be nice too.
Actually now I think about it how about these...
A-2 - less powerful BMW 801C-2 engine.
A-4 - more powerful BMW 801D-2 engine.
A-6 - outer cannon are upgraded to MG151/20, or optional MK108.
Sound good? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-17-2000).]
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Yes, we need another variant of the FW, I'm always outmatched in the A-8 except:
A) If I have at least 2k alt advantage, or
B) It's a buff
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort.gif)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
"In training, upon being told it was time to
solo, the instructor said, “You tried to kill
me enough times, now try it with a check pilot.”"
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Well at least the A-8 can run away from everything in the arena but a stang, and you can run from a stang long enough to drag him to his death (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LLBM OUT!!!!!!!
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I agree RAM. I rarely flew the A-8 in WB because it was such a pig, compared to the A-4. I long to maneuver co-alt with the spit dweebs.And it is faster than the A-8 to boot.I'll give up the faster firing cannon and 13mm just to get the swirl and twirl nimbleness of the A-4. Plus it would be a fun fighter against the C-205, and other light fighters on the deck.Thanks for listening to our opinions PYRO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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LLBM, that is not true, both George and A8 have the same top speed with wep at 15K and below. I've checked data and tested it off-line, it's true! (I've also been caught and shot on-line by the George)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
"In training, upon being told it was time to
solo, the instructor said, “You tried to kill
me enough times, now try it with a check pilot.”"
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Also the A-4 was a widely used aircraft, very feared by the english Spitfires,that in 1942-44 were outclassed by the A-4 to A-6 Fw series.
Someone wants to elighten poor fellow ? Or should i do it ?
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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Mmmm fd-ski
He's right about the first part of his info.
The FW190a3-a4 did outclass the spit in 1942.
As I recall the first encounter between spits and FW190's was during the Dieppe raid in 1942. The spit was totaly outclassed by the 190. What is important is that during this raid the RAF flew spits mkVa and b.
Against a spit MkVb the 190a4 holds almost all the aces. It climbs better, better top speed, rolls better, dives better, more guns... the only thing the spit Vb has going for him is sustained turnrate and as we all know that's not that important.
Against the spitmkIX it's a totaly different ballgame. The spit IX climbs better, has better sustained turn, keeps E well, has as good an acceleration, and the top speed is close too.
All in all, it all depends on the pilots flying the birds... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BEE
Nemo impune lacessit
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/bee.gif)
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I'd like to chime in, in favour of the A4. Pleas please please please please, can I have an a4. I'd fly no other plane other than my beloved f4-1D.
did I say please? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
udie
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MMM about Spits and FWs...
The SpitV was outclassed by 109Fs in 1941/42 (its widely accepted that the Messerchmit F was a better plane), the Fw190s opened the gap to a lever unacceptable for the British,who in response introduced the "interim" IX version. The IX brought the fight with the 190A-4s to an EQUAL...the A-6 again outclassed the british plane, being a plane with less wingload than the previous versions.
In dieppe were introduced the Spit IXs and Typhoons.They,and SpitVs were wiped out from the skies by nearly 200 Fw190A-4s. Note that they were 4s not 5s nor 6s.
Until the Griffon series the Spitfire was inferior to german FW190A series. Then was another history, but then whe should look at the 190D not the A isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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A-6 lighter? I would think the Fw190A only got heavier with each new model.
The AFDU regarded the Spitfire F.IX and Fw190A-3 as equal. The advantage in speed swings between the two, depending on altitude. The Spitfire is slightly better in climb up to 22k, where it gets markedly better as the Fw190A drops off. The Fw190A has a better zoom climb, acceleration and is faster in a dive. The Fw190A is more manoeuverable except in turning circles.
The first Spitfire - Fw190A encounter was during Circus 101(21/9/41), when returning Polish No 315 Sqn. pilots reported engaging "...unknown enemy aircraft with a radial engine".
As for the Fw190A-8 in AH outrunning everything but the Mustang - I don't think so! The Bf109G-10 is almost as fast as the Mustang(only a few mph slower). At high alt the Spitfire is faster too. At low alt the La-5FN has some serious speed. The Corsair should be faster at high alts.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-17-2000).]
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*sits back at corner cigaret in mouth, waiting for fd-ski to kick door in gunns ablazing*
And yes: allthough the A8 is better here than the WB its still in a funny way "left behind" the planeset (Funked and Wells came to the conclusion its really the heavier G model AFAIR).Takes goood patience to get in that 25k-home-field-is-same-direction-as-attack position.And defensives are the most limited of all cept the 47 ;=)
I'd prefere the A6 as next Fw.It should be fairly simple as a layout variant of the A8 - but then again what do I know;=) - has the center of gravity moved forward as from the A5 models onward, has lighter wingstructure than A5 and 4x151\20 cannons as basic armament.Forget 108's, and GM1\MW50 - but who cares nobody seems to get them right anyways.And it went production june -43 witch will follow the planeset backwards nicely from the current late war setup.
danish
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I have heard HTC talking about adding Fw190A-5 someday...
I guess that will be our next one..
At least I am more merrier with it, even though it has less ammo and couple poorer cannons (if takes 'em at all)
But, its over 20mph faster and maneuvers better (who needs armour of A-8 then when youre mostly behind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
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The first Spitfire - Fw190A encounter was during Circus 101(21/9/41), when returning Polish No 315 Sqn. pilots reported engaging "...unknown enemy aircraft with a radial engine".
from "The Polish Air Force at War" part 1:
Page 213
"...on 21 September, the wing was involved in a desperate combat with 18 Bf 109s on the way to France, which were joined by several new radial-engined enemy fighters, variously identified by the Polish pilots as Nlochs, Curtiss Hawks or even Macchi C.200s, Four of those were reckoned restroyed, by S/Ldr Piertraszkiewicz ( two ) - whi himeself was shot down and made PoW - F/O Falkowski and P/O Wamdzilak, in addition to five Bf 109s brough down, two "probables" and one damaged for loss of one Polish pilot killed. Polish combat reports created a sensation in Intelligence cicles amd were discussed for many days. It was later realised that the enemy aircraft involved were the new Fw 190s.
The second encounter with Fw 190s was reported on 27 September ( during Circus 103 ), with one climced destroyed by Sgt Chidel. Five Bf 109 were also shot down, with further two "probables" and four damaged. Polish casualties were one pilot and a Spitfire VB"
BTW - all polish squadrons were flying Spit VB at that particular time.
It was outclassed by both 190 and 109F it faced, which once again proves that it is a pilot not machine that matters.
If you are interested in squadron 315 - check this out:
http://www.raf303.org/northolt/ (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
RAM as for your comments about Dniepre raid - let's use the same logic for Battle of Britain:
Hurricanes shot down more planes then Spits
LW lost 3 times as many planes as RAF.
That means Hurricanes is at least twice as good as 109E ?
Must have been eh ?
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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I never doubt that the difference is made by the pilot, not the plane...Saburo Sakai survived a dogfight against 14 Hellcats in his lone A6M5.
but an ace with a good weapon is better than one without that. PLease note that the 109E loses in BoB were very few compared with the bombers and Me110s. ALso note that Hurricanes used to attack bombers and Spitfires fighters. The argument you use is invalid because you ignore historical facts. The Hurricane was an AWESOME buff destroyer in 1940. But not so good fighter. To count Hurricane's victories against bombers the same as 109E's victories vs Hurricanes and Spitfires with Ground control vectors, far from home, and tactically slaved (thks for Goering's "wise" order of close escort), is to be unfair.
No doubt RAF had great pilots. but Luftwaffe's Jagdwaffe was until early 1944 the best fighter command in the world.
But returning to the Fw190 matter, it was a better machine than the Spit until 1944. No doubt about that. In good hands a SpitV could beat a 190, but Damnit, that is the pilot not the machine. And you can be sure I like Spits, but also do like 190s and I find them better.
BTW the numbers you give of Fw190 loses in the first engagements were the true ones or the pilots' claims?...there use to be a great difference,isnt it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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let's use the same logic for Battle of Britain:
Hurricanes shot down more planes then Spits
LW lost 3 times as many planes as RAF
Due in a large part to Herman (fat boy) Goerings stupidity in slaving the 109`s to the bombers-in affect taking away the 109`s advantages over the RAF fighters. (Thanks God for said stupidity) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Otherwise the results would have been markedly different for the Battle of Britain. Just my .02 cents.
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}]
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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"Luftwaffe's Jagdwaffe was until early 1944 the best fighter command in the world."
Yeah, they were hell in the Pacific.
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fd-ski is right. It has a lot to do with the pilots.
Note to report sighting a new or odd plane type, you have to see it up close -- which may have happened on many other occasions, and you have to be able to then fly home -- which may not have always occurred. Or it could be that the FW pilots did not have the familiarity with their new überrides. Or maybe they just sucked. It'd be interesting to hear what the German sources said.
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Was the IJN navy air arm the finest in the world in 41-42? yes...did it had any influence in MEditerranean and Atlantic, NO...German Jagdwaffe fought in Western Europe, Mediterranean, North Africa, East Europe, Scandinavia...thats 75% of WWII theaters of operations...so that is also NOT an argument to work with.
Be fair, in 1936-44 the finest fighter pilots were German...and later also (Galland, Kuprinski, Buhligen, prillen,Lemke...they were the finest aces in the world, but only a handfull of them).
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Was the IJN navy air arm the finest in the world in 41-42? yes...
It was defeated by the Cactus AF in the Solomons in '42.
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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
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Actually RAM my opinion is it was until just after the BoB.
Then it started falling apart from the top down.
-Westy
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RAM - you're not willing to see the other side of the story mate.
Those LW pilots who made hundereds of kills were shot down mutliple times but since they flew over their own terrirory - a bail wasn't the end for them. For many allied pilots it was. With exception of Battle of Britain, the best Allied pilot could hope for was trying to cross the front lines.
LW pilots on the other hand flew mostly defensive battles on the western front and if shot down could be back in the air by the same afternoon.
Example: Galland was shot down twice same day once if i remember corrtectly.
Now back to 190 vs spit debate:
This horse has been beaten and ever sim i've played. Fact is that preformance wise - aside from roll rate, low level speed and big guns - spitfire 9 - especially HF and LF models were far superior to 190A types.
All 9s could outclimb 190's and once the fight went over 15k - forget it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And that was in 1943 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In late 43 most of LW in northern france was withdrawn well out of the range of the fighters operating from england. That means that they could pounce em-masse agaisnt fuelstarved targets well away from home.
As for comarasons:
16 planes ( P-51B's ) from 315 squadron ( Polish ) fought over 60 190A's ( probably A8's and A6's ) in 44 and shot down 15 of them for loss of 1. ( results have been confirmed after the war )
Does that mean that 51B should easily outclimb outpace and outturn all 190's ?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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To spinny:...true, AFTER the best IJN pilots were dead in Midway (and not because their fault), and AFTER they were landed in a base that left Guadalcanal so far from them, yes, they were killed by CAPs of fresh pilots well warned.
Dont take my words as an offense to the CAF. They were great and brave pilots, but japanese, in that time were better. Bad leadership leaded to bad use of pilots and planes, uselessly wasted in the SOlomons.
The same can be said of german Jagdwaffe in 1940. Bad leaded, bad used and still were an awesome force capable of everything.
Westy, I date 1944 as the fall of the Luftwaffe because in 44 died most of german aces...and because the 8th AF Big Week, that destroyed many planes and pilots. After that, with low resources and low fuel the luftwaffe was defenceless...and that still with the better pilots in the world still flying.
If your point is that the Luftwaffe was at its peak in 1940 that is true. IF you speak about Jagdwaffe, I think is not. Molders,Marseille,Hartman,Nowotny,Buhligen,Mayer,Priller,Lemke,in 45 again Galland...etc.
If you look their victories its an unvelievable number. And many of these pilots spent nearly all their careers on Western and Mediterranean fronts,against RAF and USAAF...the average quality of the new pilot was more or less the same in RAF,USAAF and Luftwaffe until 1944 when luftwaffe's training program fall because lack of fuel,resources and time. Then the green pilot were much greener and the Top aces started falling one after all...and all of this started in 1944.
So IMHO Jagdswaffe's rule as better fighter force fall in medium-44 more or less.
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Ski, I always try to be as impartial as I can...regarding your argument about captured pilots, yup, its true, the German ones had the advantage on this matter...but this is part of the war and was something the germans knew and adapted to it. To say that an ace as Galland (the best fighter pilot in history IMHO,maybe level with Marseille and Moelders) was less good pilot because that...mmm I think is not very fair. Of course is IMO you may have your point and I fully respect it.
Regarding Spit9s, the low level fights (i.e. below 15k) were usually won by german fighters. Until late 1943 the channel air battles were usually won by German Fw190s, the Spit was a wonderfull machine, but again the Fw190 could always chose if engage or run away, had the edge on firepower,hispeed and lowspeed handling, Dive qualities, and was a decent if not good E-keeper (the A-4s to A-6s). I believe that the gap between planes had closed a lot but the 190 was still the better plane. The Spit outclassed the 109Gustavs, but was still after Fw190.
I repeat, that IMHO.
And regarding the Mustang matter...could you give me the date of the fight please?...if is medium to late 44, then you are supporting my theory that the fall of the Jagdwaffe started on early'44.
Anyway I can tell you some amazing stories of couples of german fighters going into formations of 100 and more planes in the russian front, in 1944, and many damaged to down some planes and RTB uncatched...It all depends on E. If those P51 had the E advantage they could bounce the A-8s at will and if cautious enough, the A-6s also. The P51s could return to safe altitude and bounce again. Anyway I always regarded the Mustang as a much better plane than the Spitfire and the fw190A-series. As with the Spits griffons, the Mustang should be compared with 190 Doras, because the Mustang medium was the Hi-altitude, where the 190As were only sitting ducks. The Dora-9 changed that.
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So IMHO Jagdswaffe's rule as better fighter force fall in medium-44 more or less.
IMHO their fall started right after battle of britain when they gave away initiative and did not foresee the escallation in numbers required.
( LW on the eve of BoB - 5000 planes or so ) Invasion of Nortmandy - Allies 20000 planes or so ?
They didn't do their homework. That's why they failed. Arian super-knight was highly overrated.
As for 190 - it's a brute machine. In a large group fight - when instant firepower is the king - 190's atributes shine.
It is a good interceptor, and good buff hunter, but it never was a good air-superiority fighter when faced with decent opposition. It lacked high alt performance and stellar climb. Personally i would rather take 109G with GM1 then 190... but that's just me...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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I understand what you're saying RAM. I just differ in opinion on this subject.
I'm currently reading Gallands book, "The First and Last" and my take on what he is saying is more along the lines that he and the vast majority of the LW veterans knew the war was lost when Germany had to spread it's forces from the Western coats of europe, to the Eastern front, Greece & the Caucuses, Italy and Afrika.
Starting with Goerings blunders during the BoB the LW never really recoverd from trying to fight a 3 front war with it's resources and as they became swamped by bad decisions to fight a numerically superior (and even quite often a quantitatively superior) enemy it was a down ward spiral for the LW.
There were particular milestones, such as "BigWeek", that REALLY dealt the LW a heavy
blow but the LW was already fighting a losing battle from the BoB onward. Surprise attacks and the resultant initial euphoric victories not withstanding (ie the start of Operation Barbarosa and the Red AirForce being decimated).
Combinations of bumbling stategies; how deployed, who to ally with (the Italians SHOULD have taken Malta and did not and hence the embroilment in Afrika)and the lack of a long range 4 heavy bomber in particular), combined with being spread out too thin, along against an increasing quantitative and qualitative war stocks from the US & GB and the Soviet factories east of the Urals the
Germans had no chance to win.
This is not to say the LW did not have good people at the stick or in thier staff.
Their numbers dwindled as time went on and could not train nor replace these people like the Allies could.
But they were not, imo, the best up till 1944. The LW was already on the ropes, being cut to ribbons by the buff gunners and the few but increasing escort fighters starting in 1943. BigWeek was just a hammer blow to the head.
If the LW WAS the best, then 1944 should have been a different story. Yes it had the best tactics and most experienced pilots due to the SPanish civil War vets and the Polish invasion. I can agree to it being the best in 39, 40 and into 41. but the LW lost it in 41-42 and was on an irrecoverable down hill slide from then untill May of '45
-Westy
p.s. Moelders kills were East Front. Marseille were in Afrika/Med, Hartman was East Front and these guys, Nowotny, Buhligen, Mayer, Priller, Lemke, I admit I know not much of. I've heard thier names but they're no less the best than the cooresponding top aces of the Allies. the Allies had the luxury of rotating thier pilots on a routine.
The LW pilots flew till they died starting back in 1939 til the end. I'm sure had there been no rotation for the USAAF pilots and had they started in 1939 you'd see quite a remarkable of three figure kill score Aces also.
Galland TRUELY was a great pilot. Most of his kills were on the West and predominately against fighters.
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 02-18-2000).]
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I certainly disagree that the FW 190A's were superior to the spitfires between 42-44.
You have to remember the F model in AH is the worst spit 9 varient the HF and LF being superior. In terms of simple numbers they are fairly evenly mathched and both have thier strengths and weaknesses and both were fine planes. The problem with the FW it is a great plane at an energy advantage but if you see a plane with 2000 feet on you you can only roll and hope they miss. Of all the planes in the AH planeset there is none I would rather be flying when I see con(s) at co-e or higher-e than the spit 9 (even though it is the F). This of course is all opinion but the reason your statement
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Also the A-4 was a widely used aircraft, very feared by the english Spitfires,that in 1942-44 were outclassed by the A-4 to A-6 Fw series.
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Is wrong is simple - Spitfire Mk8
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Westy:
Yup I agree that the Luftwaffe was going down from 1940 onwards, but the Jagdwaffe itself was getting more powerful until 1944. I agree that the Luftwaffe wasn't able to maintain aerial superiority in any TO from 1942 onwards. But the Jagdwaffe fought against the RAF in the Channel for nearly 2 years inflicting crippling loses them, at very low cost both in machines and pilots. And by 1943 all british Spits were SpitIXs...
Also I only can agree with strategical blunders, but those were from high command not Luftwaffe nor Jagdwaffe themselves.
Even knowing that war was lost, german pilots kept fighting spirit...they had the most experienced aces in the world between them, and a quite good training scheme that was raising a decent number of new pilots of average to good quality. One of the effects of the Big Week was the high pilot loss, so the training had to be accelerated...then the lack of fuel made the program stop at all, changing to frontline training missions...as you know that was the end for the German Jagdwaffe...it turned in a unexperienced force with a high quality coren.Very very far from being enough to stop the allied tide.
But the force itself, the Jagdwaffe,was the finest in the world...not the better strategically deployed,nor commanded (although Galland did all he could to change their leader's blunders),nor numerous...they were the best figher aces in the world, and they knew it.
I have to correct you in a very important thing. Moelders fought in Spain,then in France,then over Britain,anb THEN changed to the East front. I dont know how many of his victories were in the east front but for sure less tan 20, because he died in 1941 in an accident aboard a He111. He got the swords for his knights cross before galland and I think Diamonds too.I give Galland the Number one ranking but by a low margin...Moelders was his equal in all aspects, maybe a little better...but he didnt' survive.
Now Im surprised you dont know know Maj Walther Nowotny. He was one of the finest LW pilots in WWII. He was awarded the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. A total of 258 victories, 255 in Eastern Front ,3 B-17s with a Me262 while he was the commander of Kommando Nowotny, the first operational squadron of 262 fighers. He was before the commander of I/JG54 also. he was dead in 8-11-1944 when taking off in his me262 in Achmer field. His death was seen there by Adolf Galland so it must be in the book a reference to that day, because Galland had a lot of trust in him.
Now for the others:
Oberstlt. Kurt Buhligen. Top Fw190 ace in the WTO. 112 victories, including victories over Tunis.Survived the war.
Oberstlt. Egon Mayer. High score ace in WTO, also in Fw190.102 victories.
Haupt. Siegfried Lemke. Another 190 ace, also in WTO.95 victories. Also survived war.
Those three above were pilots in JG2Ritchtofen...my squad in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).All spent their careers in WFront.
Oberst Josef "Pips" Priller. Arguably the best Fw190 rider in WWII. A total of 101 victories, again all in WFront. He also survived war.
Hope this helped a little.
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Please don't take this as me siding with anyone on the "Spit IX vs Fw190A" debate. (that would be like voluntarily sticking your foot in a bear trap (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )
But one item we should not forget is that we fly in a "Icon environment".
This changes things drastically.
In our arena's where we can see the enemy easily (as long as you pay attention), the Spitfire really shines.
In the real world, where it is much harder to see a bad guy (not to mention judge the distances to them), the instantaneous firepower of the 190, and its ability to engage/disengage at will really makes up for its weakness. This is evidenced by the short ranged icon environment, typical to WB's HA and SL's.
I think in real world conditions the 190A's are much closer in "overall ability" to the Spit IX than many of us give it credit for.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Yep, don't let the attributes that are useful in arena combat blind you to what won real air battles. Speed, guns, durability, speed, more guns, more speed! You didn't see the countries on either side rushing to build slower, more maneuverable planes that had weak armament and a fragile powerplant!
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What about Heinz Baer. Flew from day one to the end of the war. 220 victories, but spread over France, BoB(top scoring NCO pilot), East and West fronts and Africa/Malta. Had the second highest number of Western-flown kills after Marseilles at 124.
He was the highest scoring "Jet Ace" for years after WW2 with 16 kills in the Me262. Only one (Israeli) pilot has exceeded that score since.
The most impressive thing about his career is that he did well on every front. Many other experten didn't/couldn't make the transition from one front to another and still do well.
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Interesting thread:
From the book The Focke Wulf FW190 by Gordon Swanborough and William Green:
British AFDU report on captured Fw 190 A 3 Werk-Nr 5313. After they get done telling how much it out classed a spit 5, It goes on with a test of the spit 9 with merlin 61 at 3000 rpm and +15 pounds boost. "Speed runs displayed that the new Spitfire was marginaly faster at certain altitudes." Book goes on to give different alts and speeds. FW faster at some and spit faster at others.
"In climbing there was little dispaarity between the spitfire 9 and the fw up to 23,000 ft, although the former displayed a slight edge at 22,00 ft." (the spit was a MUCH better climber above 25,000 ft.
" From high cruse, a pull up into a climb gave the FW the initial advantage, due to it's better acceleraation, and this superiority was even more manifest when both aircraft were pulled up into a zoom climb from a dive."
"In diving, it was ascertained that the Fw 190A could leave the Spitfire 9 behind without difficulty, although the superiority was less marked than with the spitfire V B,"...
The report concluded that the most Disadvantageous alts for fighting the fw190 were below 3,000 ft and between 18 and 22,000.
The Report also noted that the captured fw was a standard AC issued to front line units and the BMW 801D-2 engine was derated in order to conserve operating life. Maximum power was reduced from 1.42 atas which offered some 1,770 hp at rated alt, down to 1.35 atas giving only 1,595 hp at 2,500 ft and 1,455 hp at 18,000 ft.
Top speed listed for 190A3 With one min over ride boost :418mph at 21,000. Time to climb to 26,250 ft listed as 12 mim.
Top speed of 190A8 402 mph at 18,045 ft and with nitrous oxygen boost, 408 at 20,670 ft.
Inital rate of climb 3,450 ft per mim. time to 26,250 14.4min.
The fw 190D was not a high alt, fighter: that's why fw went on to develop the TA 152's.
see ya on line
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combat & juzz. Those tests between the spit and A3 - the A3 had a sick engine.
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Yep, don't let the attributes that are useful in arena combat blind you to what won real air battles. Speed, guns, durability, speed, more guns, more speed!
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Of course funked those are very important factors especially on a large scale, these are qualities that the P47 had in a abundance but on personal level when cruising at 12,000 feet and your formation of 109's jumps you would you rather have the p47 or a spit 9 strapped to you.
RAM - I say again the spit 8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Spitfire Mk.VIII... only a "relatively" few of them were builded. Better than the Spit IX, better than Fw190A-4...but was in very few numbers so I simply didnt count them.
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1652 spit 8's were built.
This was posted by fats ages ago
======================
Aircraft Monograph 4
Fw 190A/F/G/S part I
ISBN 83-86208-35-X
Fw 190A-1 102
Fw 190A-2 420
Fw 190A-3 ?
Fw 190A-4 900+
Fw 190A-5 ?
Fw 190A-6 569
Fw 190A-7 80
Fw 190A-8 1,334(+)
Fw 190A-9 ?
Fw 190F-1 ?
Fw 190F-2 271
Fw 190F-3 247
Fw 190F-8 ? ( until feb '45 115 F-8/Pb 1 planes, after which Pb 2 replaced it? )
Fw 190F-9 ?
All in all ~7000 F-series
Fw 190G-1 ?
Fw 190G-2 ?
Fw 190G-3 ?
Fw 190G-8 ?
All in all ~800 G-series
All in all 17000+ radial engined Fw 190s
Aircraft Monograph 6
Fw 190D/Ta 152
ISBN 83-86208-54-6
Fw 190D-9 674 delivered
Fw 190D-12 ? apparently none saw action cause of no fuel
Ta 152 total of all versions 67
Squadron/Signal Publications
Focke Wulf Fw 190 in action
ISBN 0-89747-018-4
Fw 190A-1 100
Fw 190A-2 400+
Fw 190A-3 500+
Fw 190A-4 ?
Fw 190A-5 ?
Fw 190A-6 569
Fw 190A-7 ~80
Fw 190A-8 1300+
Fw 190A-9 ?
Fw 190F series ?
Fw 190G series ?
Various magazines:
Fw 190A-1 102
Fw 190A-2 426
Fw 190A-3 509
Fw 190A-4 894
Fw 190A-5 723
Fw 190A-6 569
Fw 190A-7 80
Fw 190A-8 1334
Fw 190A-9?
Fw 190F series until F-8 1133, F-9 unknown
Fw 190G not mentioned in any magazine I had
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You said :
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Spitfire Mk.VIII... only a "relatively" few of them were builded. Better than the Spit IX, better than Fw190A-4...but was in very few numbers so I simply didnt count them.
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You'll notice no number there exceeds 1652 so all marks of FW are insignicant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Incedently their were about 7200 spit 9's produced.
P.S. I always believed that the A-5 to A-7 offered no performance improvement just a longer nose and shifted centre of gravity
as well as extra armament options. Can anyone tell me the actual improvements in A-5 to A-7?
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where did you read that??? overall fw190 production 1941-1945 was nearly 20000!!!!!!
20K!!!!
BTW most if not all of the Spit VIII were sended to Extreme east, so that excluded them at all in ETO.
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BTW most if not all of the Spit VIII were sended to Extreme east, so that excluded them at all in ETO.
The VIII was if anything, slightly lesser in performance to the equivalent IX . Both had F,LF,HF types, but VIII was little bit heavier.
Those tests between the spit and A3 - the A3 had a sick engine.
I've heard that many times before, but would someone care to reference it please? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Besides that fact, the Spitfire F.IX was run at only +15lbs boost, when it could go up to +18lbs emergency, or even +25lbs with 150 Octane fuel...
So lets see the numbers from the USN Fw190A-5 test (http://members.xoom.com/mikewaltz/F-TR-1102-ND.htm) then, since the ADFU Fw190A-3 was "porked".
Max Climb: 4000fpm at 4000ft.
Top Speeds: 341mph S/L, 415mph 22,000ft.
Spitfires, from here. (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html)
F.IX
Max Climb: 3860fpm at 12,600ft.
Top Speeds: 326mph S/L, 409mph 28,000ft.
LF.IX
Max Climb: 4850fpm at 6000ft.
Top Speeds: 336mph S/L, 407mph 22,000ft.
HF.IX
Max Climb: 4700fpm at 12,000ft.
Top Speeds: 329mph S/L, 415mph 27,800ft.
VIII(LF I believe, Merlin 66)
Max Climb: 4610fpm at 6,400ft.
+25lbs: 5580fpm at S/L.
Top Speeds: 338mph S/L, 405mph 20,200ft.
+25lbs: 362mph S/L, 409mph 14,000ft.
where did you read that??? overall fw190 production 1941-1945 was nearly 20000!!!!!!
Your answer...
This was posted by fats ages ago
======================
Aircraft Monograph 4
Fw 190A/F/G/S part I
ISBN 83-86208-35-X
and...
Aircraft Monograph 6
Fw 190D/Ta 152
ISBN 83-86208-54-6
and...
Squadron/Signal Publications
Focke Wulf Fw 190 in action
ISBN 0-89747-018-4
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kats By sick engine I think you mean derated?
If so I mentioned that in my post.
Bfdu report on the 190A3 werk-nr 5313:
Weight during trials 8,580 lbs (3,890 kg)
Power loading 5.36 lb/bhp (2,43kg/hp)
wing loading 42.3lb/sq ft (206 kg/m2)
RATES OF CLIMB:
0-4,000ft (1-220 m) 2,900ft/m (14,7 m/sec)
2,350 rpm 1.28 atas.
0-4,000ft 2,450 rpm 1.35 atas 3,250 ft/mim (16,5 m/sec)
8,000 ft (2,440 m) 2,200ft/mim at 1.10 atas and 2,450 at 1.17.
10,000-17,000 ft (3,050-5,337m) 2,800ft/min (14,2 m/sec) at 1.28 atas. At 1.35 atas 3,500 ft/min (17,8 m/sec)
25,000 ft (7,625 m) 2,000 ft/m (10,2m/sec)
The report notes that the above figures relate to the DERATED engine. Max out put was turned down to 1,455 bhp from about 1,770
see ya on line
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Jmmcaul: You are right, A-5 through A-7 had no significant performance changes from A-3 or A-4 when in the fighter configuration. However there were some heavier configurations (armament, armor, external stores stations) so sometimes you will see lower numbers for a particular A-5 through A-7 airplane.
Combat23: interesting figures for the A-3. Was that derating done because of fuel? I always figured that since the A-2 ran on B4 fuel, the C3 wasn't available immediately when the A-3 aircraft reached units, and that was the reason for the placards in the A-3 that was captured by the limeys.
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Combat23: I think Kats is refering to the old "bad spark plug" debate on these tests.
Reportedly, the 190 they used had bad spark plugs (somewhere in the report it notes this), so its believed that performance was adversely effected.
Again reportedly, a couple months later, another set of plugs was recovered from wreckage and placed in the test 190 and performance was improved.
However the evaluation that is quoted above was already written and distributed.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Let me stir the pot some more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)Quote from Aircam/airwar 6 Jerry Scutts
"Among the statistics of the battle (of Britain) were those showing the actual losses incurred by each side when the three principal single-seat fighters were in combat with each other. Thus, Spitfire v.Bf109: 219 to 180 lost; Hurricane v. Bf109: 272 to 153 lost- 491 spitfires and Hurricanes against 333 Bf109s was a ratio impressive enough to show just how effective the Luftwaffe's single-seaters were."
And....
The JG26 War Diary Donald Caldwell (meticulously reseached from both sides records) The Schlageter fighters, and the Richthofen Geschwader to their west, had totally disrupted the British air strategy for 1941. Between 14th June and 31 December, (during circus rodeos, etc...) Fighter Command lost 411 fighters over the channel and the continent, while claiming the destruction of 731 Luftwaffe fighters. The true loss to the Germans was only 103 fighters." And the final deathblow for the Mk9
Tour 1 AH FW190 A-8 1062 kills against Spit9's . Spit9 679 against A-8.
Beta 3 tour AH Fw190 A-8 1679 against Spit9 Spit9 1186 against Fw190 A-8.
Game set and Match. That said Read Eric Browns book Duels in the Sky. He has world record for flying the most plane types 487 and the most carrier landings 2200. He compares most of the world war 2 fighter planes (he flew them)against eachother. He had a battle with an FW190 in a Spitfire over France for 10-15 minutes and they fought to a stalemate. He rates the FW190 and Spit very equal and gives the 190 a big thumbs up in many circumstances. He would personally choose (these are planes used in numbers) The Spit 14-Fw 190d, and then a close third the P51D Mustang. This guy flew them all, alot. And did real and mock combat between them. This book is awesome. Even compares allied against allied. Axis against axis, Etc... He is the most qualified person in the world on this subject. Get the book! You wont be sorry. I wont tell you the other choices. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SIFTER
"High Deflection, Lead Injection!"
The 902nd Immortal Jaguars
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Sifter please input the entire name of the book, and the editorial, I'm getting that book and soon as I CAN!!!
your statistics show what I said...Fw190 was slighty better plane than the MkIX, and with the pilots that germany got in 1941-44 was an assasin...great post and great details, as I said I wait for the book name and editorial (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))) thks
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Well damn. Looks like the F4U-1 is VASTLY undermodelled then. It's kill:death ratio is only 1.6:1 in AH, but in WW2 it was over 11:1!
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RAM - i have this book Eric Brown "Duels in the sky"
It's a good book to read but hardly an engineer's book. It has lot of "felt" situations more then hard numbers.
Generaly it is not accepted for numbers discussions because of its inconsistencies...
Nice read thou....
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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From the figures i had (from the web, i'll try and dig them up) the spit 8 was a bit quicker and had a better climb (these could of course be wrong?).
As to 190A4 v Spit 9, i would like to see the HF and LF figures in direct comparison to the 190 figures, unfortunatly unless tests were conducted under similar conditions i am not sure of the value of just comparing figures from different sources. I would though like to see their realtive powerloading, wingloading etc. even with figure comparisons when planes are fairly evenly matched it comes down to which qualities you hold dear.
As to combat records showing which plane is better i see the F6F is many times better than the Me262, who'd of thought that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM its ISBN 0-87021-063-7
fd-ski I wont let my blod boil on this discussion once more.Just want to point out the inconsistencies the numbers give again and again..
A flight sim has to have some numbers to put in and so be it, lets just hope they choose the numbers *and* evaluate the result.
danish
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Juzz: not a valid argument...the F4U was a great plane but its 11:1 ratio was the result of fighting against a vastly inferior enemy. From 1943 onwards the techical difference was abysmal and when it was reduced later (Ki-84,Ki-100,N1K2...) was too late because there were not enough experienced pilots to fight against...
Try this...model the A6M5,create a "newbies arena", then go in in your F4U1-D and lets see how many victories you win.
The Fw190A was faced against good planes and competent pilots. The F4U1 not. Also the Hellcat got a tremendous win rate, and wasn't more than a good plane, no more than that.
As you see:not a valid argument.
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Your not seriously suggesting a combat record of the 190 shows it as a superior plane! There are just too many variables beside performance. Apart from anything all planes on all sides seem to have a better K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) than 1 which is a bit dubious.
The p51, same theatre as the Me 262 but with a superior K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ratio the P51 is therefore a better plane?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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You do know the Jagdwaffe had every advantage(except numbers) over the RAF fighters during that time period(june-dec 41)? They could pick and choose their fights, and had enough time to engage from an altitude advantage. They had better planes, more experienced pilots and superior tactics.
The Spitfire IX wasn't in service during that time period. So to say the Fw190A is better than it from numbers you must be using SIFTER's AH stats - which are in no way valid for comparing real plane quality. As you yourself point out, the AH arena isn't anything like the air combat environment that existed in WW2, so these numbers are void.
If you examine the performance numbers - it is clear that neither the Fw190A or Spitfire IX is decisively superior to the other. Unless you consider a 5-10mph difference as being "superior".
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Brown's book is great. He seems to have typoed some numbers. But the flying accounts are awesome!
Verm: Actually the derated engine and the spark plugs are two separate issues that existed on that particular plane.
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why does everyone think that when Mr. IX was deployed it overnight become the most used fighter in RAF ?
I have accounts of PAF squadrons flying SPIT VB in 1944 !!!
Hell, partols over the channel were flown by 303 in HURRICANE Ia in 1942 !!!
LW on western front had newest up to date fighters due to the qualitive race with Brits and Amis - but on eastern front where they had to use everything they had - 109E7 could be found in 42 no problem.....
See the point ?
Danish - examples please ?
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I am not saying that SPitfire 9 should outfly 190 in every department. They were pretty well matched planes - win or lose depended on pilot more then anything else.
In 1 on 1 case - spitfire 9 is a clear winner.
Many vs Many - good team in 190s will clear the skies - just ask JG14 how to do it.
If any of you think that when you are flying 190 you will be able to hit "s" button for "save me cause i'm so special and i fly LW" and be catapulted 10k higher - think again.
LW did well in the war thanks to good pilot training and being able to pick its battles. If you fly in the bee's nest - expect to be biten in the bellybutton (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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RAM,
The books quoted are Aircam/Airwar 6
Luftwaffe Fighter Units Europe, 1939-41
By Jerry Scutts isbn 0-89402-019-6
Duels in the Sky by Captain Eric M. Brown, RN
isbn 0-87021-063-7
The JG26 War Diary 1939-1942 by Donald Caldwell isbn 1-898697-52-3
Fdski,
Numbers are neccesary but pilots fly the planes. They fly them by feel. Eric Brown must be considered (imo) THE MAN when comparing these planes. He was a test pilot that tested the planes and then gave the numbers to the engineers. The test pilots use scienctific type tests and observations to confirm the engineers theoretical data. Five to ten mph is hard to distinquish while moving in the air. If the plane is out of trim that speed is easily gone. The Spit required more trimming in flight when changing from level flight. Not to mention the engine controls. The FW 190 required very little trimming during changes in flight aspect. And the 190 had a "brainbox" to control the engine and pitch to decrease the pilot workload so he got the max out of his plane more easily and could concentrate on the fight. We dont deal with these problems in the current sims.And I'm not sure I want too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Eric Brown flew both planes alot. He also fought the 190 in his spit for real. He sees the two planes as equals. He stated "It is not easy to establish a winner between these two, and indeed I have vacillated (dont we all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) so much on the choice that I feel compelled to give them equal rank, though that has meant swallowing my national pride. If the spitfire had had the german fighter's rate of roll, I could have declared it a clear winner and ease my conscience."...now thats an honest man. Could you imagine the crap he took from his fellow countrymen for his decision? On page 206 of the book he gives his design feature list in order of importance and compiles a merit list. IMO the best part of the book.There are way too many variables in any given fight to decide the winner in advance. Anybody who watches the UFC's can tell you that.And the RAMS how the hell did they win the superbowl. There the RAMS for God sake! My opinion is that I wouldn't feel outgunned (jab intended lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) while flying either plane. My fingers hurt from all this two fingered typing. Radio me in AH and I'll wing for you to learn how other people do things. I'll even fly the Spit. Now that's an honest man. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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P.S. Dont tell UDIE if I fly the Spit with you. He gives me crap everytime I get in one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sifter
"High Deflection, Lead Injection"
When flying the spit: "Im defecting for dweeb injection (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)"
The 902nd Immortal Jaguars
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Fd-ski:
Exampel:
WB Spit IVX
danish
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Sifter,
I was afraid you would start flying that plane again. This time you must be punished.
For the next week you are to fly only the 190a8 w/ 2x20mm and 2x30mm. As well as 100%fuel and external tanks. Only you are not to use the fuel in the external tank. You must also stay under 10,000 ft. AND you must only engage cons that are above you :P
For the week after that you are allowed to use the fuel in your tank, but under no circumstances are you to drop the tank..
Oh yeah, and give me 50 pushups too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Udie
Say "you-die", Say "ooodee", SAY YOUR PRAYERS!!!!
902nd Immortal Jaguars
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This is the thead that never ends..
Yes it goes on and on my friends...
Somebody started typeing it not knowing what it was...
And we'll continue reading it forever just because....
This is the Thread that never ends....
Yes it goes on and on my friends...
""
""
Regards to the imortal lambchop...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Danish - are you saying XIV is overmodeled ?
As far as i'm conserned - its nuts have been cut cause otherwise nothing else would be flown... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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fd-ski:
Im afraid your jumping the gun here.The WB XIV is undermodelled for sure.Just wanted to give an exampel I knew we could agree on ;=)
danish
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"DOH", Who squealed? Now I'm doomed to E-less flying for quite awhile. At least he's not making fly the Hawg! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)