Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: MachFly on April 17, 2011, 02:12:59 PM
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I remember a few people been asking how to land your plane if you loose your elevators (Don't remember who).
Yesterday I lost my left H-stabilizer with the elevator and the right elevator on a B-25H, thought some people might want to see an example of how it's done.
Video: http://www.mediafire.com/?shhst5o1m68n7f3 (http://www.mediafire.com/?shhst5o1m68n7f3)
Use power and flaps to control pitch and therefore altitude. You generally want to be bellow your flap speed because flaps will have a faster effect on your flight path than engines. If you accentually start climbing use ailerons to roll your plane and loose altitude.
If you can't alien yourself for the runway, land at any empty field and taxi back.
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Yes throttle control is the trick. Flaps do help a lot on approach, but throttle works best for fine control.
Either method is going to have a delayed response, and also is very limited to how much it can actually control things. If you need immediate response, roll the plane a little and kick the rudder.
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Yes throttle control is the trick. Flaps do help a lot on approach, but throttle works best for fine control.
Either method is going to have a delayed response, and also is very limited to how much it can actually control things. If you need immediate response, roll the plane a little and kick the rudder.
That's if you want to descend, if you want to climb or pitch up rolling will not help you. But yeah, your mostly right.
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Having just done this a couple of days ago in my pony, its fresh in my mind :). Lost the right horizontal stab and elevators on both sides in a dive after a collision. The hardest part is to realize what has happened before you hit the ground. If you pull back on the stick and nothing happens and you aren't going fast enough to compress, hit the flaps. If the nose comes up, you've lost your elevators :).
It's also helpful to get lined up way out and take a very flat approach and get your speed down to landing speed early and hold it there. The last part you may be seeing a lot of amplitude of up and down motion close to the ground. The last part is to let the nose dip by bringing up the flaps, then just before you reach the ground level, flaps out and give it a burst of throttle to flatten. Cut throttle and let it settle.
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I've been getting way too much practice with no el landings.
The airplane will want to return to it's trim speed...using flaps lowers the trimmed speed. I try to set up a stablized approach at a safe rate of descent...doing so allows you to fly it to touchdown without having to do any adjustments close to the ground.
Once had a jammed elevator in a Cessna. Was pretty interesting until I got it stabilized and was able to figure out what had happened and fix it.
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Once had a jammed elevator in a Cessna. Was pretty interesting until I got it stabilized and was able to figure out what had happened and fix it.
Interesting, could you elaborate on that?
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Interesting, could you elaborate on that?
Cessna 206, dropped some skydivers and somehow a glove (at least I'm 99% sure it was a glove) jammed between the end of the stab and the elevator mass balance leaving me with about 2/3 up elevator.
I noticed after the jumpers left, I closed the door and let the nose drop as I added power for the descent (power used to keep engine temps OK). Airplane started to pitch up, I pushed and realized I couldn't move the yoke. :O My head spun around like Linda Blair and I spotted the fingers on the glove sticking up between the stab and mass balance. WTF?!?! Nose pitched up 20-30 degrees nose high, rolled wings vertical to left to drop nose through horizon then level wings where it pitched up again. After a couple of oscillations and power changes (it would have been a fun ride if I hadn't been busy) I stabilized at about 85IAS is a very slight descent.
As I was trying to get things under control I called manifest (happened to be my wife)on the radio and told her to go outside and get an eyeball on me because I might have to get out of the airplane. THAT got the attention of everyone on the ground. :D
Within a moment the Boss/Owner was on the radio and we agreed I should try to force the elevator to move with the hope it would free the glove. Tighten the parachute harness, made sure I knew where the door handle was and gave the yoke a pull. With a lot of force I was able to move the yoke aft where it stuck at almost full up elevator -- this is where the ride got real interesting. I adjusted power and used steep banks to control pitch as much as I could. On one oscillation I did a complete roll since it just seemed like the quickest way back to where I wanted the airplane. Decided things had to change now so as the nose pitched very high I gave a hard shove and was able to get the yoke forward where it stuck now with a lot of down elevator. Pitched over so hard my shins hit the bottom of the panel. Not really liking the whole neg G thing I quickly gave a hard pull and the yoke returned to it's normal Cessna heaviness but at least it move normally. Looked back and no sign of fingers sticking up.
I had put on a pair of nomex gloves to protect the hands if I did have to bail out. What I didn't realize is that during my wrestling match the web between thumb and forefinger was holding the PTT down so the folks on the ground heard my conversation with the airplane as I grunted and groaned with my pulls and pushes. :D
I did a relaxing, slow descent and landed. We didn't find any damage to the airplane so I took a leak, put some fuel on and launched with another load.
At the next Safety Meeting I did mention that due to the incident with the glove (we never did figure out where the glove came from) I would in the future require all jumpers to be naked.
PS A few weeks earlier I had practiced for just such an event -- although in my practice scenario I was assuming a mechanical failure causing the jammed elevator. During a descent from a drop I had used one hand to "lock" the yoke in pitch and practiced flying using only power for pitch control. I think the pre-planning was a big factor in things not getting worse.
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Glad you got back, with the airplane.
Thanks, good to know. Just the other day I was thinking that this is good to know for AH, but what are the odds you would need to do something like this in real life. Now I'm thinking that I should try to practice something like this when I get a chance.
Since the cessnas have flap controls in degrees (not notches), could you have drop ~2° to stabilize that slow descent? or was it so slight that it was unnecessary?
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In that model of 206 the flaps have a "pre select" switch with notches for 10, 20, 30 and 40 degrees. You CAN use intermediate settings but chances are the selector will move changing the flap setting. Power controls climb and descent. If I had added power I could have flown level. I was at 11,500 (started the evolution at 13000) and needed to descend to land -- the slight descent was intentional.
Using great care, only do this if you're really good enough to do it, fly using just the trim control. I had to land using only trim when I was learning to fly (but then my old time CFI also made me land on a cow pasture strip practicing forced landings).
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BTW I just realized this, if your elevators are jammed your trip wont work either. The trim tab is directly connected to the the elevator, if the elevator is jammed than the trim tab wont work either. This will also not work on the aircraft that don't have a trim tab for the same reason.
Perhaps if the controls are not completely jammed the trim would help because you might not have the strength to just move them yourself.
So if you loose the elevator (physically) or if it gets completely jammed you would only have your power, flaps, and ailerons to control the pitch.
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done that a coupla times in an A20 :D
discovered that the Ki-84 loses its ailerons with no warning in a dive at about 480 the other day. doh!
managed a very wide 180deg U-turn and rtbd for a ditch over a sector away using rudder and engine torque for roll. it actually wasnt too bad :aok
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one thing i do if im still alive even is i roll over 90 either way, then i use my rudder--bank 90 left, and left rudder is pitch down, right is up. then roll back over again. btw, dont try that in a b-29 :devil
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BTW I just realized this, if your elevators are jammed your trip wont work either. The trim tab is directly connected to the the elevator, if the elevator is jammed than the trim tab wont work either. This will also not work on the aircraft that don't have a trim tab for the same reason.
Perhaps if the controls are not completely jammed the trim would help because you might not have the strength to just move them yourself.
So if you loose the elevator (physically) or if it gets completely jammed you would only have your power, flaps, and ailerons to control the pitch.
If the elevator is truly jammed you might be able to use the trim tab as the elevator. It will be a very small elevator and it will work opposite to normal. I sure as heck give it a try.
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If the elevator is truly jammed you might be able to use the trim tab as the elevator. It will be a very small elevator and it will work opposite to normal. I sure as heck give it a try.
Right, I see what your saying.
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That took balls to force that elevator but seems most necessary considering the nearly non-flyable configuration you found yourself in.
I once retracted a piper arrow's gear and felt the rudder pedals forcefully headed toward full deflection and quickly lowered the gear.........which quickly corrected the problem but not before entering a nearly 90 degree bank barely off the runway.
That failure is not supposed to happen but there were actually two separate failures in the nosewheel steering that's linked to the rudder with one having occurred some time before the other one but only manifesting itself under the conditions of the second failure.
I now wait until I've reached a higher altitude and speed than most people before raising gear.
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That took balls to force that elevator but seems most necessary considering the nearly non-flyable configuration you found yourself in.
I once retracted a piper arrow's gear and felt the rudder pedals forcefully headed toward full deflection and quickly lowered the gear.........which quickly corrected the problem but not before entering a nearly 90 degree bank barely off the runway.
We took a chance by forcing it but thought it was an okay decision since we could see the problem. If it had been something different I most likely would have putted over to Anchorage and landed on that 11,000' runway with a bunch of my old buddies standing by in firetrucks.
Interesting about the gear issue you had, and quick thinking to undue the "last thing you had done".
A friend came off a village strip along the Bering Sea in a 402 loaded will pax. When he flipped the gear lever up one of the engines quit. He said it was so coincidental that he almost moved the gear lever back down. :D He kept it in the air, got it cleaned up and secured and almost climbing as they flew out over the pack ice. He decided to go to Bethel (where he could get maintenance done) instead of the planned destination or the departure point. When he told the pax his plan they all emphatically nodded YES!