Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on September 05, 2001, 11:43:00 AM
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About perking or not perking planes, the problem is not related to the performance of a plane, but to the popularity generaly derived from that performance. What this means is that performance implies popularity, popularity implies massive usage, massive usage implies a very poor plane diversification in the arena, and that last one implies a boring and monotone arena. IMO, perk system should regulate this effect, and because our MA is not an historic arena, there is no reason to perk a plane based on number of manufactured units. Remember that perk planes may cost as less as 1 or 2 perks, just enough to regulate the "population" in the arena.
Based on this theory, IMO, the perk system should work in an automatic mode increasing or decreasing perks based on plane usage (abuse). This way, even C202 may be unperked now and perked after an hour, and again unperked after two hours, etc.
And a second and more important rule, perk planes may cost 0 perks for people with 0.0 perk points available. This way, someone with 0 perks will be able to pick up a Tempest, but if he lands a single kill, the Tempest will be perked for him for the next sortie, and so on. The "perk" plane at 0 cost also implies the lose of 0 perks if you destroy the aircraft.
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Lets just simplify the perk system, instead of making it more complicated, just dump it. Fly what you want, how you want and don't worry about anyone else's plane. Perking the F4C, and I predict the N1k1 soon, will / has only resulted in players losing the plane they like to fly. It also resulted in the WHINES being directed at the new despicable plane of the hour. There have already been numerous posts calling for other planes to be perked, likely because the poster was shot down by that plane. At this rate only the 202 will remain as an unperked fighter.
<rant off>
Mav
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
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As a new player I like the perk system. I would like to see a few more planes perked. It gives you something to work towards and gives you something to now want to lose when you take off in that shiny new F4U-1C and don't want to have it shot out from under you.
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just get rid of the whole idiotic and unfair perk system... This ain't everquest. Ya wanna "work toward" something? There are plenty of things to work toward.... a dozen stats to play with and mucho planes to master.
RPS is the only fair way to have a game that so many different types of players are on. Even with the "everquest' type of game.... I'm not sure but I don't think The guys with all the extra crap aren't killing you.. They are using that stuff to kill AI and go to higher levels or some such...
An RPS with a couple of days of early war and a couple of days of uber war with a big middle war would be a lot of fun, infinitly more fair and allow a lot more planes to be usefull and..... used.
Besides.... what kind of a lame-o dipshit works to get a better plane then everyone else so that he has an unfair advantage from the gate? What satisfaction from killing lesser ac? Sure it's fun to watch things blow up but.... wouldn't the people who favor the idiotic perk system be the ones that would be considered to be...."quakers"?
lazs
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The ONLY cure for the absurd "perk system" is an RPS a la you know what ;) But that would mean someone would actually have to model some early war A/C <g>
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I agree Lazs. Besides, has anyone considered how much time it takes for HTC to create and model a new aircraft, and then proceed to have it perked? IMO this is a waste of time. :rolleyes: I'd rather have them implementing new planes that I can fly at my discretion ... I don't need to work towards anything either. I do that enough at home and at work :D .
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U won't see any of the non-perk planes in the current plane set in the MA perked.
I like the perk set, it gives the poor whiners somethin to complain about.
The same guy who complains about how fast the MA is getting wants all the planes free lol (twit)
SKurj
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My POV :
at each start of tour
reset the players perk capital
give a small amount of perk to each player
and go !
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The reason that the N1k should be perked is because I have to fly something that has a chance against it.. I see diddlyin' 4 of these things breaking land and It's gonna be a down hill fight.
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Eng3firemn, agree with you, HTC has spent a lot of time and efforts to create and model all the aircrafts. We have a lot of models but, actually, only 6 or 7 models are massively used just because they are the best performers and they are not perked. And the problem with our actual perk planes is that they are expensive (except F4U1-C) and cause that they are not very used.
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Fly a Dora Fdisk. Your sounding like a bigtoe will decrease ten-fold. Trust me.
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skurj... i know about your reading comprehension problem so will make this simple...
A modified RPS is infinitely better than any idiotic perk system. Even your complex and unworkable (in a 24/7 game) solution involves really good planes being available to a select group while everyone else has to fly lesser planes. That is what is inherently unfair about any perk system... In your system, the sin that earns you a lesser ride may simply be choice of country or time chosen to be online. laughably unfair and unfun for the MA but workable for scenarios.
certainly, skill levels will allways vary but let's at least fix it so everyone starts out on the same foot, plane choice wise, every sortie and.... let's fix it so that the arena is not an uber plane only arena. The only way to accomplish these goals is to have an RPS of some sort or.... An "area" arena where all planes are available all the time but only at certain "areas" of the map, segregated from each other. An early war "area" a mid war "area" and an uber area all in the same map.
mandoble... the perk idea is a ded end and a double edged sword... If the perk points are kept high as they are now, then they will be used very little and the arena will remain relatively fair and the planes will be relatively useless.... If, on the other hand, they are made "cheaper" then they will be used a lot more and the arena will become less fair. Perk system allows you to adjust for bad or.... worse.
lazs
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Laz said it better than I could. The only way your going to see more early war stuff with the current perk system is to perk a whole wack of the current planeset, making it even more unfair to the guy who only has a few hours a week to fly.
An RPS would give the early war fans a few days out of the month to enjoy thier thing, and add some varity to the arena.
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Unless, of course, the early war fans can't fly on the days his favorite ride is available. There are 3, sometimes 4 days a week it is impossible for me to loggin.
I like the idea of everyone getting a few perks at the start of the tour....then earning the rest as the month progresses.
Originally posted by rosco-:
Laz said it better than I could. The only way your going to see more early war stuff with the current perk system is to perk a whole wack of the current planeset, making it even more unfair to the guy who only has a few hours a week to fly.
An RPS would give the early war fans a few days out of the month to enjoy thier thing, and add some varity to the arena.
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you want to see early war planes in the arena, fly them!
Alot of the planeset is pre-44 thats "early" relative to the AH planeset.
SKurj
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Creamo, I will not go to your level no matter how much you offend me by telling me to put my clean foot in a Dora. I don't need to vulch for my kills. Should I meet you at 15K straight up or do I wait until you BnZ. The N1K does need to be restricted ..period..
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You meet me straight up at 15K in a N1K2 vs. a Dora, your pretty much out of options.
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skurj.... gee, what a great option.. So, we just add planes like the spit one and the p40 and a6m2 and anyone who wants to fly early war can just have at it in the current MA? Or perhaps you feel we have enough early war planes right now?
lazs
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RPS sux bellybutton period the end. The perk system seems to be doin ok. I don't have a ton of points and still not enough for an arado but ya know what? If I wanted an Arado I could start a bombing campaign and get enough points. This is the only drawback to the CT for me is the RPS.
I like to fly the underdog planes and stay away from most the uber rides. I think I have flown 3 perk flights or maybe 4.
For my money let me have the choice of what plane I want to fly when I want to fly it. Don't force me to fly early war for 3 weeks so I can fly a later war bird for a week.
With the perk system I can earn the points needed to fly a perked plane, so all planes are available to me whenever I want.
Laz don't try to force your game down my throat and I won't try to make you deep throat mine.
S!
Rocket
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Kill/Death ratio should be the determining factor in whether ya git to fly "perk" planes.
It only makes sense... would any Air Force give a state of the art plane to someone they know will not git a kill in and die soon after takeoff?
Set a Kill/Death ratio of say 2.0 for CHOG and 2.5 K/D for the other planes in perk system.
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Originally posted by milnko:
would any Air Force give a state of the art plane to someone they know will not git a kill in and die soon after takeoff?
To put it simply, yes.
All airforces did.
Sure, you had your expert squadrons in the Luftwaffe in 262s and at least one Squadron of Experts in the IJN in N1Ks, but many fresh pilots also flew those aircraft. Same goes for the Tempest and F4U-1C. The Ta152H-1 and Ar234 were not common enough to really say one way or the other.
Your suggestion is silly in that it would deny those who most need the help access to those planes.
It would also deny those who fly things like Ju88s and Il2s a shot at the perk planes. If you wanted yo fly perk planes you would simply spend all of your time in P-51s, La-7s and Fw190D-9s, aircraft that it is fairly easy to obtain a 2 or 3 to 1 K/D ratio in. You would never attack a field or GV.
I am 12 and 5 so far in Tour 20. 4 of those deaths were to Ostwinds and the 5th was obtained by trying to straffe a Bf109F-4 in a bomb laden A6M5b and not pulling up in time.
In Tour 19 I was 71 and 65. For most of Tour 19 my K/D was negative because I was flying the weaker aircraft.
I am quite capable of having a 2 or 3 to 1 K/D if I want, but don't ask me to add to the MA diversity while I do it. I think that most others are in the same boat.
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Perks system seems fine to me, perhaps those who don't like it find it difficult to get enough perks because they're flying thier little easy mode / low perks per kill ac. Perhaps they're afraid they'll meet a perk plane which amazingly outperforms their easy mode plane and it shoots them down. OMG the horror!!!!
The other thing I find really hilarious about the anti-perk crowd are the people that proclaim they never fly perk planes because its unfair ya de ya de yada. LOL
Yet I see a lot of these same people flying N1K's into battle (vulching me at rook fields) when the rooks are being gangbanged with 4 to 1 odds. Hippo-crates!!!!!
LOL@Creamo and the rest of the dweeb crowd yet again
LOL
LOL
LOL
:)
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Bad idea mlinko
Then a perkie may NEVER be accessible to some players. I finished the last tour in around the top 160 players, and I didn't have a 2:1 k/d ratio.
SKurj
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Originally posted by Karnak:
To put it simply, yes.
All airforces did.
Sure, you had your expert squadrons in the Luftwaffe in 262s and at least one Squadron of Experts in the IJN in N1Ks, but many fresh pilots also flew those aircraft. Same goes for the Tempest and F4U-1C. The Ta152H-1 and Ar234 were not common enough to really say one way or the other.
Your suggestion is silly in that it would deny those who most need the help access to those planes.
It would also deny those who fly things like Ju88s and Il2s a shot at the perk planes. If you wanted yo fly perk planes you would simply spend all of your time in P-51s, La-7s and Fw190D-9s, aircraft that it is fairly easy to obtain a 2 or 3 to 1 K/D ratio in. You would never attack a field or GV.
I am 12 and 5 so far in Tour 20. 4 of those deaths were to Ostwinds and the 5th was obtained by trying to straffe a Bf109F-4 in a bomb laden A6M5b and not pulling up in time.
In Tour 19 I was 71 and 65. For most of Tour 19 my K/D was negative because I was flying the weaker aircraft.
I am quite capable of having a 2 or 3 to 1 K/D if I want, but don't ask me to add to the MA diversity while I do it. I think that most others are in the same boat.
Damn, I actually agree with you here. Well, to a point. You don't have to fly an La7 or P51D or a Dora to get a 3 to 1 K/D (in fact, I only went 2.5 to 1 in the Dora). You just have to be incredibly lucky :D. Had a 7 to 1 K/D in the 190A5 last tour, as a result of 3 8 kill sorties (that were massive furballs- with no nikis, I was ecstatic).
However, this tour I flew the N1K for a couple days, went 4 and 1 in that and all I was doing was furballing. Not going to earn many perkies that way though. You get more perks for 2 kills in a 109G2 than you do for 5 in a N1K, at least it seemed that way to me.
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rocket... i can't "force" my ideas on anyone. I have no influence or, at least, no more influence than you or anyone else on what happens in this game. So go ahead... try to force your ideas on me. I will enjoy the exchange.
It's simple really. With a perk system you end up with an arena where superior planes are allowed to fly against inferior planes. This may be "historicly" accurate but is pretty unfun for the guy in the inferior plane who, after all, is paying the same amount to fly in a GAME.
with an RPS, modified for plane popularity, you end up with the same thing maybe... superior planes sometimes flying against inferior planes but... the difference is that the person flying the inferior plane is doing it out of choice.
So.... what would be wrong with making uber planes available on say 2 days of each tour? The arean would be fair choice wise... The uber planes would actually get used and have a chance to fight other uber planes.... You would actually get far more stick time in the uber planes than you do now.... New guys would be able to try em (in a meaningful way) before even one tour was over...
Compare to current "perk" system... what kind of attention starved, lame-o coward would want an uber plane when he knew he had little chance of running into any plane with parity? The answer is in the question and the way they are used now proves it.
lazs
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For early war fans a modified RPS would be a savior also.... Even a couple of days of early war only planes would allow for some early war fun plus.... the early war planes would still be available the rest of the tour.... They would even be a little more useful most of the tour since the real uber rides would be restricted to a couple of days or so.
seriously... with the modified RPS even the most die hard tempest fan would get to fly 10 times as many sorties (at the least) as he does now.... same for early war. How many perk ride sorties do you fly now? How many 202 or zeke sorties do you fly now?
lazs
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Laz,
The A6M5b is hardly sitting unused:
Tour 19 sampling:
The P-38L has 5631 kills and has been killed 7602 times.
The F6F-5 has 5310 kills and has been killed 5522 times.
The Fw 190D-9 has 4965 kills and has been killed 3104 times.
The A6M5b has 4954 kills and has been killed 7426 times.
The Ki-61 has 3696 kills and has been killed 2353 times.
The Yak-9U has 2847 kills and has been killed 2399 times.
The P-47-D30 has 2395 kills and has been killed 3219 times.
The C.202 has 417 kills and has been killed 888 times.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Remember that perk planes may cost as less as 1 or 2 perks, just enough to regulate the "population" in the arena.
-yay
Based on this theory, IMO, the perk system should work in an automatic mode increasing or decreasing perks based on plane usage (abuse). This way, even C202 may be unperked now and perked after an hour, and again unperked after two hours, etc.
- nay
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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havent read it all but id like to say so far I like the perk system.It just needs to be less brutal as in if f4ucs have dropped in popularity to say 109f or 202 numbers then the perk cost can come down.
It needs to be dynamic, to change as an aircrafts use changes.I think the basic idea of the perk system to help control overuse of 1 to 3 most popular types makes AH more varied.Its just at the moment we are slaping a number on a plane and ignoring how much it is used.The talk of me262s being 300 perks sounds a bit over the top if we were to not see them flooding the arena.
Can HTC make the perks change the more we use one type? or does it require someone physically changing values for every adjustment?
I must admit i dont hate to fight f4uc's so much now that they are a rarer match.Same would go for niks if you ask me.Ive always said it i wouldnt mind paying low numbers like 2 or 4 perks for a flight in a plane which is over used.
it really isnt that much of a deal to earn a few perks to fly in planes but to get 70 then disco or die because you hardly get to fly a plane is what hurts so bad.
make the tempest 10 perks and if it is everywhere and we all get sick of fighting them start to raise its cost.Same for all types.
I think its a FAIR system if its done right and very unfair if its guesswork.
Ive no problem with the current costs as i get a chance to fly a perk plane enough for my satifaction.but for others maybe it is pretty frustrating to have to get so much for their favourite (like the tempest)
Id like to see newbies able to fly it more often for the extra challenge.Its no fun beating someone who hasnt had much practice.
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karnak... point taken but... the a6m5 is not an early war plane. It is armored and it has self sealing fuel tanks and i believe it is modeled too tough damage wise anyway. it is also a carrier plane and carrier planes can use carrier ack and hit close enemy fields..... Even at that.... It is being slaughtered! Imagine how badly an A6m2 would do in the current arena! Worse... a p40 b or spit 1. Waste of time to model em even though they were about 100 times more significant than a D9. every early war plane was 100 times more significant than a D9 or 152.
No... the perk system is fine if all you like is late war planes. I understand HT's hesitation to go to an RPS of any kind tho. It is the best od reasons, economic.. some will simply not fly if their P51 or whatever is not available even if it is for only a few days. I think people would enjoy a few days of early war but.. I would not wish to force early war planes on anyone.
To me.. the perfect solution is an "area" arena with segregated areas all in the same arena. A small early war area, large mid/late war area and small uber area. Fair fights in any plne you liked would simply be a matter of choosing the field that had it.
The only options are having only a few planes being used in the arena with only later and more uber planes being considered for modeling (or like the hurricane, modeled but unused after the novelty wears off). Or.. perking every plane in the arena on a sliding scale that is based on... What? till you have a (an even more) confusing and unfair mess that is far from newbie friendly.
lazs
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The perk system will mature into a wonderful way to make Aces High even more fun to play. As it stands now, the only effective perk has been the C-Hog, and thats because it isnt too expensive so you can fly it often, but its not so cheap as to make it a "fly every sorte" kind of plane.
One big issue (and keep in mind Im a fan of the perk system), is you should not perk regular arena planes, unless they have non-perked variants. Making the Typhoon perked is fine, because it came that way, perking the C-Hog is fine, because the D-hog remains a viable alternative, perking the n1k is not a viable option unless a non perked variant is made. It doesnt help that the number of Japanese planes is lacking as it is.
I just want some perk tanks....that way my Il2 has something to do ;)
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I think that HTC is steering this ship, and if they want the perk system there's not much we can do.
I dont mind it anyway
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I think this has been mentioned before, but maybe a new twist might help it out some.
Someone mentioned that all new players should get an advance on perk points when they first open their account, so that they have the ability to fly whatever they want (until they get them all shot up)
Another said, how about resetting the perk points for all players at the beginning of each new TOD.
What about giving everyone a certain number of free perk points at the begining of each TOD? Then maybe there would be no more whining about certain select players being the only ones who can afford the perk planes.
Personnaly, I think that if we saw more perk planes flying around, we might see less HOs and other suicide tactics so commonly seen in the MA.
I agree that newbies and other in-experienced pilots should not be restricted from flying what ever plane they want, no one should be. However, I do agree that there should be a limit on how many you can fly, if you choose to fly them foolishly, or without any regard for trying to survive a fight in favor of just furballing 1-vs-20, knowing you will be shot down.
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Whoever complaines about the Perk system is just showing that they have no skill :p I can lose all my points today and still fly a TEMP tomarrow. It isn't that hard to go out, grab a Spit V and get some points. I can bring in about 20 points every 30 min with a Spit V easy. Now if you fly the 109F4 you can bring them in eve quicker, providing you can fly a dam lopsided aircraft that those germans made. :D Anyway, quit your dam whining and go kill some planes with somehting other than you dweeb la7, niki, spit IX and you will see how fast the points add up. :mad:
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The perk system IMHO is far and away better than the alternatives tried by AW (which tried nothing) and WB (which tried a highly-skewed RPS). It ain't perfect, but that's fixable. I would like to see how perks are determined, and their price, modified, and the scope of the whole system expanded.
The purpose of the perk system is IMHO to keep certain planes (that HTC probably shouldn't have put in the game in the first place :D) from dominating the arena so much that hardly anything else gets flown. The idea is to preserve game balance and the variety of aircraft match-ups in the arena more than it is to reward those who do well.
The planes to perk, therefore, should be planes that can do everything well in air-to-air combat. Planes that have high speed and good turn performance. These currently get used a lot because of these abilities, upsetting the balance struck by planes more specialized for one or the other. Take these planes out of the picture and the other, more specialized, planes will see greater use.
So, if a stallfighter is as fast or faster than most E-fighters, perk the Hell out of it. If an E-fighter can turn with the best stallfighters over a tactically significant speed range, perk the Hell out of it. If a stallfighter is only a bit faster than most of its ilk but still slower than most E-fighters, perk it a little. Also give little perks to E-fighters that are either overly fast with no other advantages, or are one of the best on average AND have some significant advantage in another area.
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Again...just my humble opinion.
To put it bluntly I don't feel that any plane in the AH inventory should be perked. I have a lot of perks, if anyone wants them they can have them. I don't see a wide gap in the inventory as it is.
Each craft brings something to the table. Use what your craft gives you, don't ask it to do something it can't and you'll do well.
SA is contributing factor to most deaths by any aircraft. Put yourself in a bad place, and a Spad can shoot you down. It's a combination of the pilot, knowing his craft, and the strengths and weaknesses of the craft he is fighting. No more, no less.
However, when the 262 becomes available it should be perked steeply imho for the simple fact it is of the next generation of aircraft.
Again, just mho
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]
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I have around 2000 perk points and have no trouble earning more. That is not the point. just as I do not like avoiding far superior planes in the arena that tend to spoil good fites.... I also have no interest in beating up other players in an untouchable plane. I have used up a bunch of perks flying the Chog against the other cannon monsters like the nik lag and spit when the new guys first came on so that when I killed a plane the 6 guys chasing it's wingless carcas down to the ground didn't get the kill... but.. I thought it was funny that if I ran out of fuel or just got bored and ditched or augered with no damage I lost points? Arguably... The Chog is not a superior plane in any way except for haveintg guns that are as good as two ior three of the best planes and should never been perked at all based on ability... but.. many planes are being introduced that are far superior to the non perked rides and I cannot understand what kind of a lameo coward would even want to fly em against the other planes.
The other very real problem is that early war planes will allways be useless if we continue with the present system. I would love for someone to explain how early war planes can be used in a fair way in the current system.
lazs
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they should perk all planes not to keep them from being overused or anything like that but to discourage suicide attacks and bolster cooperative buff missions and that sort of thing
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qqqqq,
If everything is perked, how, praytell, will people who aren't good at the game manage to fly anything?
Not a very good flight sim without aircraft and not a business long for the world without customers.
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start people off with a cetain number of perk points about 100, make all planes cost the same amount not huge number like 70 or so just about 10 to 20. only award perk points if u make it back to base or ditch bail in friendly territory. give extra points for landing the plane at base. Allow players to get perk points from gunning in bombers, vehicles, ships, and shore batteries. this way people who arent good at the game still will always have a way of getting points. Also points should be reset or cut in half at each reset to prevent people from getting a point advantage. I think this model would encourage teamplay and help reduce suicide attacks, and it would wouldnt hinder people who arent good at the game. I also think in they should increase flak effectiveness, and in addition to the 37mm ack at airfield they should add a about 4 to 6 single 50 cal. mounts. This would help reduce one person taking airfield which is very easily to do, especially once the vh goes down. Also it would encourage more coordinated multi buff missions and add more of a strategic element to the game.
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q... encouraging cooperative buff missions in the ma is a bad thing in my opinion. adding a penalty for fiting till you die is a bad thing in my opinion in the ma. encouraging such behavior will just create a huge arena of hide and seek with less action. scenarios and CT are good arenas for such timid behavior.
in a real war it was smart and your duty... in a flight sim it is merely timid and anal.
lazs
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timid... hmm... nah.. but i wouldnt mind an arena for more strategic play. all this deathmatch style stuff is annoying. i play ah because i dont like mindless quake style stuff, but the ma is often just that
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I like the perk system. I think some planes are WAY overpriced... and actually, I think I have only flown a perk plane once... and that was before you could even buy planes. (Though points were being totaled) I think some of the planes are over priced because there are people with thousands of perkies most from the days of perk glory when you could get 10 just for sneezing. (OK... that isn't too fair... there are some awesome pilots out there.. but there was a time everyone was collecting perks and didn't have any planes to spend them on) I think HTC was hoping people would spend them so they could lower the # of perkies required for certain planes... but unfortunately, no one is spending them. I think it would be reasonable to fly a F4U-1C on every fifth mission or so (not me of course ;) )... other perk planes a little less frequently. N1K1 will be fixed and doesn't need to be perked... but if you want to ad P51 and N1K1 for a few perks its fine with me. One way I think the system could be fixed is to zero out all PP's and assigning appropriate values. HOWEVER, It would be interesting to see how the pilots with thousands of perkies (who say they mean nothing and don't use them) would react. Anyway... HTC has always seems to have a pretty keen knack of balancing game play issues and I expect this will continue.
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Dynamic perk system, maybe ?
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Me hopes HTC makes a 4x12.7mm N1K2, that`ll see the same usage as the P51B...then perk the toejame outta Cannon Bird NIKI... :D
Obviously, make a perk (or non-perked)version of the most common planes, i.e like P51, NIKI, Spit, and so on, make use of some lesser seen planes
/stomp out/