Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: rabid on April 25, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
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which is the tougher fighter for you to defeat if all is equal...51D or 47M?
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Against most people, the 47M. It has a faster roll rate, better instantaneous turn, is more resistant to snapshots, and its guns will chew you up at any opportunity.
However, I believe the 51 can usually win a co-E 1v1 at typical MA altitudes, because it will hold onto energy better and sustain a better rate in the sustained nose-to-tail chase while using barrel rolls to avoid nose-to-nose falling prey to scissors, eventually wearing down the Jug. However, this takes time. A Jug with a bit of E or an angle on the pony can be aggressive and bite harder. Thus, its probably scarier to have a Jug on your six.
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47 no doubt :joystick:
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Jug wins
Better flaps, better handling, more firepower, and the same speed and climb rate (for 5 minutes).
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I would rather fight the pony, the reason being that both planes will be considerably faster than what I'm typically flying. I would approach the fight the same way regardless of whether it's a 47M or 51, but the better firepower and durability of the 47 means I have to fly a much cleaner engagement and if I get a snapshot I better land it because in either case they will be able to put the nose down and walk away from me, anytime I have to rely on my aim I'm usually in trouble. :)
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I almost always fly the Yak-9U, and I'd say with a full load of ammo, the P47M would be easier to defeat. Its a bigger target and loses a lot when its WEP runs out, and its not as tough to cannon fire as is made out on TV (especially to fuel leaks). But more than that, the P-51 usually just runs away, the P-47 sticks around and fights. Its more a reflection of the pilots than the aircraft. I'm also more likely to lose to a P-47M than a P-51. Fights with P-51s usually result in a draw, which means between the two, it is tougher for me to defeat.
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Jug wins
Better flaps, better handling, more firepower, and the same speed and climb rate (for 5 minutes).
P-51 retains energy better and sustains a higher turn rate. That is usually enough if you have time enough to play with your food. And if you know to not toss out more than 1 notch of flaps until the "endgame".
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51. The 47's too overweight.
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P-51 retains energy better and sustains a higher turn rate. That is usually enough if you have time enough to play with your food. And if you know to not toss out more than 1 notch of flaps until the "endgame".
What? how does the pony-D turn better then any jug?
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What? how does the pony-D turn better then any jug?
With ONE notch of flaps deployed, in a nose-to-tail turn. It's sustained turn rate, as opposed to turn radius, is a little better. (Rate and radius, know the difference...it is important.)
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Depends on the pilot.
In most cases, the P47 would be the one to worry about- people who fly them light are generally out for blood, and they know the machine.
The P51 carries it's legacy in it's back pocket ("P-51 won the war, it should pwn!"). It's also the choice for run-stangers ("Run away! He's got GUNS!"), BUT there's also the few who fly it because it really is an excellent fighter and well suited to actually, you know, fighting. Much bigger population base, so a much more varied threat, from none at all to your worst nightmare.
The bigger threat based on a/c performance alone is the P-51, hands down.
The bigger threat based on what you'll actually run into in game is the P-47- again, hands down.
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P51 - the jug can't climb nor accelerate, and I tend to fight in the verticals. and the P51 rolls better IMO
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47- if you get up high and dive down onto someones 6 or 3, its pretty much unstoppable. until you need to get back to 5k in theDA to land. :(
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Everything U need to know about flying the P-47! :joystick:
http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/pursuit/section6.htm
What I find especially interesting is the "Do Not Lower Flaps Above 195 mph" warning! :bolt:
I wonder if the Fw190 manuals say the same thing? :angel:
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P51 - the jug can't climb nor accelerate, and I tend to fight in the verticals. and the P51 rolls better IMO
The P-47M out-climbs the P-51D from sea level to 10k, by about 15%. It accelerates faster than the P-51D at sea level. Roll rates are too close to be a factor, accept that the P-47M has less adverse yaw.
Around 25k, the P-47M has a significant edge. Above 30k, the P-51 is badly outclassed.
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wow widewing, i did not think the 47M matched up that favorably with the 51D. what about turning?
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wow widewing, i did not think the 47M matched up that favorably with the 51D. what about turning?
Clean, they are very similar in turn radius and rate at low altitude. However, with full flaps, the P-47M has the edge with an 8% smaller turn radius and just about a 1 degree/second faster turn rate. Add to that, the P-47M is more stable nearer the limits at minimum turn radius.
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I say the P47M is easier to defeat than the P51D at typical altitudes (-20k). Above 22k, the P47M becomes a tougher beast as the larger wings, more powerful high alt motor, and better firepower all lend to a better high alt plane.
At lower alts, the P51D has more tricks to worry about that the P47M, IMO. The P47M has to be more careful in what it does and is less forgiving, imo.
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I don't know Wide, I have achieved victory against some very good P-47M pilots in the P-51 at typical MA alts, simply by sticking to nose-to-tail turning with one notch of flaps deployed. The 51 just seems to come around on the Jug eventually. Rate is more important than radius, and its not really about who has the best rate clean and/or with full flaps, but who has the best sustained turn rate at the best flap setting for that particular plane.
Then there is the factor that while M-Jug performance is very good on WEP, a P-51 in the 8-10K alt band will be cruising at about 400mph, while the Jug at those alts will be cruising at well under that-thus a co-alt 51 tends to have the initial E advantage over a Jug when coming into icon range.
Overall, I give the P-51D the slight edge at typical MA alts, if for no other reason its performance is competitive for longer than 5 minutes at a time. In r/l of course, we all know pilots could and did operate the R-2800 engine at practically whatever power setting they required for as long needed. That would put a whole new complexion on the two planes.
Clean, they are very similar in turn radius and rate at low altitude. However, with full flaps, the P-47M has the edge with an 8% smaller turn radius and just about a 1 degree/second faster turn rate. Add to that, the P-47M is more stable nearer the limits at minimum turn radius.
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. Above 22k, the P47M becomes a tougher beast as the larger wings,
The size of a plane's wings is only of import in relation to its weight. And the P-47s definitely have a higher wingloading than the P-51. Altitude will not change this relationship. The P-47 rules the stratosphere, but its because of that massive turbocharger, not the wings.
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I say the P47M is easier to defeat than the P51D at typical altitudes (-20k). Above 22k, the P47M becomes a tougher beast as the larger wings, more powerful high alt motor, and better firepower all lend to a better high alt plane.
At lower alts, the P51D has more tricks to worry about that the P47M, IMO. The P47M has to be more careful in what it does and is less forgiving, imo.
The topic of this thread might be one of the best possible examples of theoretical performance (or what pilot who's mastered the plane can do - e.g. Widewing) versus common practical performance in-game (most players you'll run into).
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What he said--I stop worrying when I see that the jug I'm dealing with is an M--vast% of folks who fly it are the same ho-ing, running tards who flew an La7 previous hop
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I don't know Wide, I have achieved victory against some very good P-47M pilots in the P-51 at typical MA alts, simply by sticking to nose-to-tail turning with one notch of flaps deployed. The 51 just seems to come around on the Jug eventually. Rate is more important than radius, and its not really about who has the best rate clean and/or with full flaps, but who has the best sustained turn rate at the best flap setting for that particular plane.
Then there is the factor that while M-Jug performance is very good on WEP, a P-51 in the 8-10K alt band will be cruising at about 400mph, while the Jug at those alts will be cruising at well under that-thus a co-alt 51 tends to have the initial E advantage over a Jug when coming into icon range.
Overall, I give the P-51D the slight edge at typical MA alts, if for no other reason its performance is competitive for longer than 5 minutes at a time. In r/l of course, we all know pilots could and did operate the R-2800 engine at practically whatever power setting they required for as long needed. That would put a whole new complexion on the two planes.
I think if you have the discipline to ONLY turn in one direction at ~200 mph and resist the temptation to do anything else, you might have a shot at it, but I think in most fights the P-51 would be outclassed badly. It would make for an interesting fight I guess, I know for the purposes of "knife fighting" there aren't too many planes in AH that are worse than the P-51. The 190s and maybe the 4 engine bombers come to mind, that's basically it. Ok, that was a slight bit of hyperbole... the 190a5 may actually be better.
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The P-47M out-climbs the P-51D from sea level to 10k, by about 15%. It accelerates faster than the P-51D at sea level. Roll rates are too close to be a factor, accept that the P-47M has less adverse yaw.
is that with WEP on?
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I think if you have the discipline to ONLY turn in one direction at ~200 mph and resist the temptation to do anything else, you might have a shot at it, but I think in most fights the P-51 would be outclassed badly. It would make for an interesting fight I guess, I know for the purposes of "knife fighting" there aren't too many planes in AH that are worse than the P-51. The 190s and maybe the 4 engine bombers come to mind, that's basically it. Ok, that was a slight bit of hyperbole... the 190a5 may actually be better.
Great discipline is not required, just the understanding that deploying more than one notch of flaps is counterproductive, and the ability to use lag maneuvers an the vertical to stay out of the scissors with the Jug.
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is that with WEP on?
Yes, both using WEP.
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I would agree with Widewing in everything he said EXCEPT to say in AH it is never that clearcut. First off a P51 above 30k is being foolish so nix that. Secondly most P51 pilots in this game never carry 100% fuel. Several of the alledged "vets" with the pony are flying at 25% and drop tanks. Given that and the sustained turning advantage... well you would have to judge in the first few seconds of engagement.
All things being equal I wouldnt worry much about either one of them.
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I have a far easier time shooting down jugs than 51s in my 109
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I would agree with Widewing in everything he said EXCEPT to say in AH it is never that clearcut. First off a P51 above 30k is being foolish so nix that.
But you can save so much gas that way...
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What he said--I stop worrying when I see that the jug I'm dealing with is an M--vast% of folks who fly it are the same ho-ing, running tards who flew an La7 previous hop
I am the HOing runtard bj speaks of. I fly the M unless ENY makes me fly the D-25. I HO in the D-25 too. When ya got 8 .50s, why not give 'em a lil squirt to the face??? And if you're gonna squirt em in the face, extend out [runtard] to set up another opportunity to squirt em in the face again. They must be willing to get squirted in the face because if they weren't, wouldn't they face a different direction? Either way, they're getting it and fighting only takes me longer to finish.
The Sky Rapist
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I don't know Wide, I have achieved victory against some very good P-47M pilots in the P-51 at typical MA alts, simply by sticking to nose-to-tail turning with one notch of flaps deployed. The 51 just seems to come around on the Jug eventually.
Jugs and the M/N in particular, rely heavily on their WEP. If both planes' WEP is expended, the P-51 has the advantage in almost every aspect (below 20 k)
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Add to that, the P-47M is more stable nearer the limits at minimum turn radius.
People underrate the ease of getting to the edge of the envelope vs. the edge itself. I think this makes a much bigger difference than the couple of % in turn radius/rate when stall fighting.
This reminds me of the old Mossie flight model with the wrong center of gravity. The Mossie has a slow turning circle that equals many fighters, but with the bugged FM any tiny misjudgment would send the mossie into the dreaded flat spin. I remember one very long, lower-than-treetops turning fight with an LA7. I feared augering much more than being outturned and preventing that required a tremendous amount of concentration. In a large fraction of the fights I simply killed myself with the nasty departure, which made me keep a larger margin of safty, giving up a fraction of the envelope.
With the jug you can go crazy on the stick and throw the plane right up to the edge of the envelope without loosing control. Good pilots can "push the edge" of the envelop, but in planes like the P-47 there is no need to push if you can just walk right up to it.