Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Krusty on May 04, 2011, 01:51:05 PM
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So why is the Bf110G listed as having asymmetrical loadouts? I had to check to see if this was a quirk of AH or not, but apparently other sources mention it, too!
400rds 20mm on the left MG151/20 and 350 20mm on the right MG151/20.
120 30mm on the right MK108 and 135 30mm on the right MK108.
Why?
Why would they do that? Why not even the loads for both guns so the firing time is identical?
That makes no sense.
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some other equipment stole ammo space for one side?
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I don't think that's the case with the MG151/20s. I know it's not for the MK108s, because those store the ammo in the nose!
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I wonder if the Germans just weren't hung up on symmetry. Check out the Blohm und Voss BV 141:
(http://texasbestgrok.mu.nu/images/bv_141.jpg)
(http://texasbestgrok.mu.nu/images/bv141_flug.jpg)
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Nah, there was a reason for that (it was an observation plane). Name any other fighter with an intentionally asymmetrical ammo loadout, eh? :P
There may be a reason, but it has to be a reason, not "just 'cause" :D
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You know if it is a German design there was a reason for it. I've looked at photos of ground crew loading cannons on both sides of the 110s nose, and I don't SEE any extra avionics or anything that looks like it would take up room. The asymmetry may be due to the ammo feed from the left and eject from the right - it looks like the belt feeds in from the underneath left side ammo cans, but everything ejecting out of the right side of the guns looks to be coming straight out.
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I have no idea why they did that, my guess would be because they could? If you can cram a little more ammo in there keeping thing symmetrical seems like a slightly silly reason not to do it especially if the guns and ammo are on the center line and not upsetting the CG. What I've always wondered was why the Beaufighter had 4 machine guns in the right wing and only two in the left. :)
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What I've always wondered was why the Beaufighter had 4 machine guns in the right wing and only two in the left.
Because of the landing lights, of course!!
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/Beaufighter-cutaway3a.jpg
But that doesn't explain the bf110G :)
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for the taters, I am not sure but it could have something to do with the gun cam being in between them, and for the mg 151's it was just because they had more room to put more ammo in for the second gun, no smoke and mirror tricks to it, it was just one of those rare times in history where they do it just because they can :)
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Nah, there was a reason for that (it was an observation plane). Name any other fighter with an intentionally asymmetrical ammo loadout, eh? :P
There may be a reason, but it has to be a reason, not "just 'cause" :D
"Hans!"
"What, Franz?"
"I have zis idea!"
"Ja?"
"Vee must put asymmetrical loadout on ze cannons on ze bf-110!"
"vhy must vee doo zis?"
"It vill drive Krusy CRAZY!"
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/74595_1782333884223_1415742882_31974940_1640177_n.jpg)
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:rofl
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Without looking at all I'd guess an attempt to counter engine torque? The C202 and 205 have one wing longer than the other for this reason too. Just a shot in the dark.
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It's centrally loaded, though, so it wouldn't work as a counter balance.
I guess the answer is "because they could" but honestly I was expecting something more logical. :P
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The guns themselves are mounted asymmetrically in the nose of the 110. I found a good photo of it - the right side 30mm has a shorter barrel and is mounted further forward in the nose. The photo is from the front, so reverse your angles here - the ammo feeds from the left and the brass drop out the chute on the right. There is a box of some sort behind the right side 30mm. It looks like the right side ammo box would have to be smaller since it is mounted further forward in the nose as it narrows. Question: it looks like they just dump the 30mm brass out the right side chute and down under the nose and out, but can anyone confirm this? I don't see any way they could recover the brass in the nose but that doesn't mean that there isn't some clever German scheme for doing it.
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Me%20110/MK108Nosephoto.jpg)
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I think the difference in space is negligible.
You are right that they dump straight out. On the night figther version they had guides/deflectors to keep them going down as they ejected to keep them out of the radar or prop arc or something. You don't see it as much on the day fighters. On the photo there, the left gun's outboard side is the ejection chute. I imagine, based on exit chutes, that the right gun is reversed so that both feed from the center and eject to the outside.
I have seen that photo and others as well. Interesting to note: The mounting rails for both guns are actually side by side. The one gun is just slid back further on the mounting rail. Had the LW came up with a different loading system, the guns could have been easily placed parallel (instead of staggered)
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IIRC the reason for the stagering was to make room for the loading mechanisms
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That's not the question, though. :banana:
(it was just an interesting note, is all)
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ah, my mistake
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I think the difference in space is negligible. I imagine, based on exit chutes, that the right gun is reversed so that both feed from the center and eject to the outside.
Krusty - I think we have it backwards and the guns feed from the outside and eject to the middle and straight down out the bottom of the nose. There is a good picture of a 110C at the RAF museum where you can see the bottom of the nose and the arrangement for the 20mm cannons is just the reverse - the port side cannon is further forward than the starboard (you can tell by looking further back along the nose and you can see the staggered ejection ports with the left one being further forward than the right). If you look at the 20mm ammo load outs, I think it shows the point again as the port cannon gets the 300 rounds and the starboard 350.
This makes more sense from a design standpoint as well - all they have to do is leave a gap between guns large enough for the brass to dump straight down and out, and that same gap works for brass for guns mounted at the top and bottom halves of the nose as long as they stagger the mounts. The ammo cans for each gun are pretty much form fitted to the nose and just of a slightly different size. I think that being good Germans they just loaded as much ammo as possible into each can, and that the cans themselves didn't waste a mm of available space.
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Is it because of the right turning tendencys of the airplane? Having 2 big propellers turning the same direction could make the airplane quite unstable at slow speed. It would make sense that the ones on the left would have more ammo, to even it out.
I know I am most likely 100% wrong, but I am offering a *possible* reason
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Eagle: I don't think that's the case. I've built a fairly decent model of it. The ejection chutes were outboard. Also, the ammo canisters are undeniably directly below the guns in line with the breech of each gun. The canisters are wide enough to span the width of the nose if I recall. That precludes any ejection chutes because they would theoretically travel directly through the ammo canisters to eject below the nose.
Also, the 20mm guns had the barrel blast tubes there, it would probably get in the way?
EDIT: Yup:
Museum bird here (note the outboard ejection chutes):
(http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/001-100/walk024_Me110/images/me110_15.jpg)
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OK - I think you must be right on the 30mms then - they have to eject outboard. Those ports are outboard, and are definitely staggered. Is that a cable coming out of the starboard port? Something for the radar perhaps (as the is a G4)?
But take a look at this underside photo of a 110C4 - if you look back along the underside of the nose there are two staggered rectangular openings just forward of the belly tray area that look to me like the ejection ports for the mg151s. I wish I had a view of this area open, because it looks like the ammo cans for the 20mms would have to load above the guns. The MG151s are very close together - I wonder if they can be mounted sideways so that the ammo belt comes in from the top of the gun and the brass just drops straight down and out?
(http://www.moorewallpaper.com/bomber-Messerschmitt-Me110-bf110-long-range-fighter.jpg)
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The answer may be simply another way to tell the pilot that he's about to run out of ammo. "Only one tater fired I guess I am about out."
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Eagle, near as I can tell those are gas ports. The guns sit back so the shell ejection would be through slots in the bomb rack. The drums were changed by the tail gunner, if you recall.
Actually just did a search and found this:
(http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/MGFF0.jpg)
That seems to say they are gas exhaust. My German's rusty but I can make that out.
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On this picture we can read the labels ""Leergurt- und Hülsenraum" = "Empy belt and (spent) catridge space" and "Handlochdeckel für Hülsenraumentleerung" = "Hatch for emptying the cartridge space". Which means they are not being ejected but collected and teken from the plane after the sortie.
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I was wondering about that. I couldn't make out the terms, but that little protruding centerline structure made me think of 109Es and how they captured the spent shells.
That doesn't seem to be the norm, does it? I've never seen it before, and there are a number of photos showing this is not present, such as this:
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-(F)14.4-(5F+MM)/images/1-Bf-110C-4.(F)14-(5F+MM)-02.jpg)
And:
(http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp202/ruspren/Bf110ZG76.jpg)
Wouldn't the shells just eject straight out in these cases?
It's hard to find a good photo of the area without the bomb rack.
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This might show one of the 2 staggered shell ejection ports:
(http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Messerschmitt-Bf-110/images/Messerschmitt-Bf-110C-9.ZG26-Fritz-Schutze-Dickow-North-Africa-July-8-1942-01.jpg)
at the very bottom there.
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This might show one of the 2 staggered shell ejection ports:
These are labeled "Gasableitungen der MG/FF" on the drawing you posted: "gas exhaust" (for the MG/FF)
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Behind them, halfway cut off at the bottom of the photo. That looks like it is about the right spot (theoretically) for a shell ejection chute.