Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tupac on May 05, 2011, 07:41:33 PM
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My new instructor and I were going through my logbook, and he was looking through my endorsements and said "David, what day did you solo?" "September 14th" I answered. My instructor had signed my presolo written knowledge, and didn't ever give me a 90 day solo endorsement. He signed my student pilots license, which apparently just needs to be signed once to say I'm cool beans to fly the cessna. He gave me individual cross country endorsement for my 3 cross countries, but NEVER gave me a 90 day solo endorsement. It's a damn good thing I never got ramp-checked, because my flying career would have been over before it started. I'm gonna have to meet with him an get him to endorse my logbook. My current instructor gave me a new solo endorsement, and cleared me to solo between 5C1 and BAZ.
/rant
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"5C1 and BAZ"
I am guessing they are AC?
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"5C1 and BAZ"
I am guessing they are AC?
Airport identifiers. Sorry, I forget not everyone speaks airplane. I'm cleared to solo between Boerne stag an New Braunfels.
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Airport identifiers. Sorry, I forget not everyone speaks airplane. I'm cleared to solo between Boerne stag an New Braunfels.
lol
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My new instructor and I were going through my logbook, and he was looking through my endorsements and said "David, what day did you solo?" "September 14th" I answered. My instructor had signed my presolo written knowledge, and didn't ever give me a 90 day solo endorsement. He signed my student pilots license, which apparently just needs to be signed once to say I'm cool beans to fly the cessna. He gave me individual cross country endorsement for my 3 cross countries, but NEVER gave me a 90 day solo endorsement. It's a damn good thing I never got ramp-checked, because my flying career would have been over before it started. I'm gonna have to meet with him an get him to endorse my logbook. My current instructor gave me a new solo endorsement, and cleared me to solo between 5C1 and BAZ.
/rant
I don't think it is as much of a problem as you see it. He did sign your medical so if you would have gotten ramp checked you could have explained the situation, you two might have had some problems but nothing near ending your career. He's a human to you know, these things happen.
Have fun on your next solo.
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He's a human to you know.
Those are the ones you need to watch out for :lol
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Those are the ones you need to watch out for :lol
Yeah but it's just paperwork, that stuff can't kill you. :)
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Yeah but it's just paperwork, that stuff can't kill you. :)
Thank you for the kind response. After sleeping on it, it really doesnt seem like that big of a deal anymore. However, I am still glad that my instructor found it and told me. My logbook doesnt have a bigger gap then 2 weeks in between flights, so the examiner would have been able to tell that I was current, and had been flying.
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Ahhh Boerne. I knew a wonderful young lady from there once. We had numerous good times together. Now she's just a fond memory and a grin :devil
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While it's been years since I was a full time CFI and I had very few private pilot students in the first place I don't believe you need an initial 90 day endorsement. You'd have your student pilot certificate endorsed, your presolo aeronautical knowledge endorsement and presolo flight training endorsement which sets you free for 90 days from the date issued. This is based on the date on the endorsement not on the date you actually performed your first solo so getting the endorsement on May 1st and not soloing until May 30th doesn't matter as the endorsement expires 90 days after May 1st. Once that 90 days has lapsed you'll need another endorsement and separate endorsements for airplane types. When I was a student pilot I had privileges in a couple different aircraft types which each had their separate 90 day clocks.
There were a number of changes to Part 61 in the years since when I was actively instructing however I don't think you were screwed.
Also there's no need for the drama of "my career could have ended before it began, blah blah blah..."
Do yourself a favor and learn what a ramp check actually is, what the limitations of what an FAA inspector can actually do, what they can't do, what your rights and obligations are and how to behave like an adult when you're being ramped.
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I always behave like an adult. I lf I had been ramped, I would have been polite and respectful. Because I am a student pilot, I always have to carry my logbook with me. He would have seen it, realized I didn't have permission to solo, and bad things could have happened. It also depends on the inspector, however. I had no idea I was flying without the proper endorsement. I was genuinely sorry that I was doing so when I found out. I'm sure though, that because of my age I would have gotten the "punk kid" treatment.
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First, don't be defensive of your age. I don't care. I'm not telling you something because of how old you are or how old you aren't. I'm telling you because it's going to serve you well in the future if you actually know what a ramp inspection is instead of writing on a message board "zOMG! I almost lost my career today!!!111!!1one" because the big bad ASI was hanging out at podunk county airport.
Second, I don't believe you were flying without the proper endorsements.
You need 3 signatures to be legal on solo day. One on the back of your medical/student pilot certificate and two in your logbook for your initial solo.
1.) Your student pilot certificate will carry an initial endorsement and date for the aircraft type you're allowed to solo in. If you're only using a Cessna 172 you will only have one signature here. I'm not sure I ever encountered an issue with this expiring but the only situation where it may would be a reissued student pilot certificate because the first exceed 24 calendar months.
2.) Your logbook will contain a Presolo Aeronautical Knowledge endorsement referencing 61.87(b) with an airport, aircraft type and date.
3.) Your logbook will contain a Presolo Flight Training referencing 61.87(c) with an aircraft type, limitations area and date. Limitations such as ceiling, visibility, crosswind, tower in operation or any other item the instructor feels necessary will be listed here.
With these endorsements you are free to get your shirt tails cut and fly solo 90 days hence. I would do these for my students on the same day of their first solo or at least on the day I planned to be a first solo if weather conditions didn't allow solo flight that day.
90 days after the date on those 3 endorsements you would require an endorsement for each additional 90 day period referencing 61.87(n). At no point does anywhere mention an "initial 90 day period" but rather "additional 90 day periods" for the aircraft types. Your initial solo endorsements will not contain the phrase "90 days" just as your solo endorsements themselves won't either. If it's printed in the logbook it usually has a header that says "each additional 90 day period" but the full word endorsement doesn't contain it.
I went and pulled out my first logbook to verify and that's how it was done. Initial Solo in the month of September in a Cessna 172. Additional 90 day endorsement for a Cessna 152 (as well as an endorsement on the back of my medical/student pilot certificate) in November. Additional 90 day endorsements for the 172 in December, another in April and May each with different weather conditions eventually going from an initial requirement of 10sm Visibility and <5kt crosswind component down to VFR and a 15kt X/W component. I was cancelling flights due to weather conditions and after flying with an instructor during the days I couldn't solo eventually got the extra leeway. 2 logbook endorsements (presolo knowledge, presolo flight training) and 1 endorsement on my medical. It sounds like you have these.
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Yeah but it's just paperwork, that stuff can't kill you. :)
You ever been ramped? Depending on the inspector a nitnoid little detail could cause you more grief than you'd ever want.
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You ever been ramped? Depending on the inspector a nitnoid little detail could cause you more grief than you'd ever want.
You have to agree that that one signature could not have caused anything really bad, in the wost case scenario he would have just called his instructor and he would have came and signed it. There is no way I'm going to believe that that one thing could have ended this career.
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The dramatic tone wasn't based in reality. Even if he was sent off without one of the endorsements and an ASI or other bored inspector came out to say congratulations and did a ramp inspection which would have likely uncovered such an oversight it's not the end of the world. The privileges of a student are essentially at the graces of the Instructor who would be asked what's up. More likely would have asked should Joe Schmoe have solo privileges and where is the missing endorsement.
Learn what can and can't be done in a ramp inspection. The inspectors can do some things, cannot do others. You have some obligations and also there are things you're not required to do. It's painless and while there are jerk inspectors out there they are much fewer and far between these days.
If none of your local CFIs have ever actually had a ramp inspection or say some bloated story that even comes close to instilling fear done listen to it. I'll do an hour lesson via Skype because there is a lot of BS about this subject.
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You have to agree that that one signature could not have caused anything really bad, in the wost case scenario he would have just called his instructor and he would have came and signed it. There is no way I'm going to believe that that one thing could have ended this career.
What I was trying to point out is that the paperwork is very important. I've been ramped once, the inspector had an issue with warbird pilots/operators. It was obvious when she made contact that she had an agenda....luckily I tend to do things by the rules so it worked out ok but she is one of those bad inspectors that gopher mentioned. Was a crappy ending to a really fun day of flying.
In this case the CFI may have gotten talked to but I think Tupac would have been okay.
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Re-reading my post, I understand I didn't clarify which endorsement I was missing. I was cleared for a 90 day solo endorsement on12-17-10, which expired March 17th. On the 17th of march, my instructor signed and dated my student pilot certificate, and started to do my logbook but apparently got sidetracked. I had a 90 day endorsement partially filled out in my logbook from 3-17 to 6-10, he got all the way to the part where me limited my crosswind component.
Thinking back, it was the last day I saw him. Myself, Tom and Tim (My instructors) had a meeting. I think it was just a simple mix-up. He thought he had given me an endorsement and left.
Golfer, I wasn't referring to you when I said punk kid treatment, I was talking about the examiner. I respect you very much and wouldn't be derogatory in that manner.
edit: I dont know why he signed my student pilots license 3 times, I thought you only signed it once?
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This should help in the future so you don't get them confused.
(http://presentoutlook.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/molehill-mountain.jpg)
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This should help in the future so you don't get them confused.
(http://presentoutlook.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/molehill-mountain.jpg)
Unnecessary
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What I was trying to point out is that the paperwork is very important. I've been ramped once, the inspector had an issue with warbird pilots/operators. It was obvious when she made contact that she had an agenda....luckily I tend to do things by the rules so it worked out ok but she is one of those bad inspectors that gopher mentioned. Was a crappy ending to a really fun day of flying.
In this case the CFI may have gotten talked to but I think Tupac would have been okay.
Ah I see what your saying. I just though you were referring specifically to Tupac's case in the previous post.
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Unnecessary
Not really. Golfer knows his watermelon and you did blow things out of proportion a bit. Re-read his posts again after a good night's sleep and a clear mind.
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Not really. Golfer knows his watermelon and you did blow things out of proportion a bit. Re-read his posts again after a good night's sleep and a clear mind.
I know he does. I did overreact, but it was a big deal to me at the time.
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I know he does. I did overreact, but it was a big deal to me at the time.
Eh...was going to be dropping skydivers at an airshow and was at the pilot brief a couple days before the show. FAA folks were present, filled out the form showing my currency, BFR, etc. A couple of days after the show (I did two drops each day over 2 days) while at work I was looking through the logbook again and noticed that the date I had used for the BFR was the CFIs expiration date, not the date of the BFR...I was way overdue!!! Took leave from work, went to the FBO and drug a CFI to the airplane and got the BFR done. That airshow was one of the first Bob Hoover flew after getting his medical back.
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I had one cheeseball guy come out one morning when we were getting ready to leave Podunk Municipal for Civilization Regional. He was a goofy dude who looked every inch a fed with the cheesy tie, short sleeve shirt, lanyard with more badges than I have bands on my waterfowl calls, chart case and oddly fitting slacks. Turns out he kept his airplane at the airport (whew! This means he actually flys) and seemed to just want an excuse to talk to someone about airplanes. Apart from being a little socially awkward he was good people and an airplane geek with a genuine love for flying. Our passengers had called asking about an earlier departure time so we were pressed to get ready so we couldn't chat but it was one of the times I wish we could've. We traded information, he logged us as a ramp inspection to justify his work existence and we went on our merry way.
My heart skipped a beat one early winter morning at LaGuardia while working for an airline. One leg in from an outstation and one leg back to base made up my last day of a 4 day and I was looking to a couple days off before I went back down to Brazil later in the week. I went down to the ramp from the jetway to do a post flight when I saw a maintenance van pull up to the airplane as I was starting my walkaround. There were no writeups on the airplane so I figured it was just a normal two-day check until a couple suits hopped out along with one of the mechanics. I made my way around past the baggage loader to see what was up. Turns out they were feds. I presented my credentials for their records while I jotted theirs down when he looked up and said to me with a smirk "I know your name..." (Insert heart beat skip here) I asked if I still had an opportunity to deny all charges, if the rumors of my death had been greatly exaggerated or if I was just the last one to hear about it. He didn't reply right away as I waited with a raised brow letting me wonder for a couple seconds. Turns out he said he processes some portion of the paperwork for the newly delivered airplanes for our airline (or others?) and had seen my name on the crew manifest for the last several. What are the odds? He asked how Brazil was, I invited him to come along next time to see for himself and we chatted a couple minutes before getting on to business. They were there with the mechanic to inspect our cargo nets (something I as a pilot didn't care about) because apparently a few had been fraying some on previous inspections. Good enough for me and no big deal so off we went.
None of my other ramp inspections had anything particularly noteworthy about them. Other than seeing the airworthiness certificate and aircraft registrations (which expire now, so check yours especially if you're renting) and a copy of the MEL there isn't much else they've needed to look in the airplane for. At my current position during our annual line checks it's a little more thorough but that's to be expected. All in all it's no big deal and while there may well be a few old crusty love muffines out there by in large the folks who are ASIs are decent folks who aren't out to screw with you for sport. It happens but it's nothing that can't be handled 99.999% of the time with having your ducks generally in a row and being professional.