Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hlbly on May 12, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
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How would these two planes stack up against each other ? Not a wish list thing , would just like the opinion of some of my more learned brothers .
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I think the 262 would win the fight at first due to pilots experience in combat.
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P-80 was a bit of a dog compared to the 262, not as fast, slower climber, bled 'E' faster due to low power output.
Please note the words 'compared to'
.. the P-80 was faster than the Mustang ..just not as fast as the 262 by a significant margin.
Prolly a good thing it didn't make the 'show', even a D-9 would have had it for lunch with half a chance.
Just my 2 copper.
-GE aka Frank
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P-80 was a bit of a dog compared to the 262, not as fast, slower climber, bled 'E' faster due to low power output.
Please note the words 'compared to'
.. the P-80 was faster than the Mustang ..just not as fast as the 262 by a significant margin.
Prolly a good thing it didn't make the 'show', even a D-9 would have had it for lunch with half a chance.
Just my 2 copper.
-GE aka Frank
Good input. I do not no the preformance of the P-80. There is one factor that make a big diffrence, pilots.
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P-80 was a bit of a dog compared to the 262, not as fast, slower climber, bled 'E' faster due to low power output.
Please note the words 'compared to'
.. the P-80 was faster than the Mustang ..just not as fast as the 262 by a significant margin.
Prolly a good thing it didn't make the 'show', even a D-9 would have had it for lunch with half a chance.
Just my 2 copper.
-GE aka Frank
Huh???
Me262-1A Specifications -
Engines: 2 x Jumo-004B engines with 1,980 lb S.T. (900 kg) each.
Weights - empty: 8,380 lb (3,800 kg) Operational: 14,110 lb (6,400 kg) Maximum: 15,720 lbs (7,130 kg)
Maximum speed - typical: 503 mph (810 kph) @ sea level, 519 mph (835 kph) @ 19,685 feet (6000 m)
Maximum speed - best: 515 mph (825 kph) @ sea level, 540 mph (870 kph) @ 19,680 (using -4A engines)
Cruise Speed: unknown
Initial climb: 3937 fpm (1200 m/min)
Sustained Climb: 6.8 mins to 19,685 ft (6000 m)
Service ceiling: 37,565 ft (11,450 m)
Range: 650 miles (1,050 km) on internal fuel
Gunsight: Revi 16b reflector sight
Armament: 2 x 30mm MK108 cannon with 100 rpg, 2 x 30mm MK108 cannon with 80 rpg, all nose mounted
P-80A specifications -
Engine: One General Electric J33-GE-11 or Allison J33-A-9 with 3,850 lb S.T. (1,746 kg)
Weights - empty: 7920 lbs. Operational: 11,700 pounds Maximum: 14,000 lbs
Maximum Speed - typical: 558 mph (898 kph) @ Sea Level, 577 mph @ 6000 feet (1828 m), 492 mph (792 kph) @ 40,000 ft (12,192 km)
Maximum Speed - best: 624 mph (929 kph) @ unknown alt (probably with -17 4000 lbs S.T. engine, Sept. 1946)
Cruise Speed: 410 mph (660 km/h)
Initial climb: 4580 fpm
Sustained Climb: 5.5 minutes to 20,000 ft (6,096 m)
Service Ceiling: 45,000 ft (1,3716 m)
Range - Normal: 780 miles (1,255 km) Maximum: 1,440 miles (2,317 km) {note: wingtip tanks actually improved performance!}
Gunsight K-14 lead computing gunsight
Armament: 6 x .50 caliber M2 machine guns with 200-225 rpg , 10 x 5" HVAR's or 2000 lbs bombs.
I think the numbers speak for themselves. On top of these figures, the Me262 rolled poorly, the P-80 rolled extremely well. The P-80 also out-turned the Me262. I really cannot see any aspect of the Me262 that beats the P-80.
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P80 probably. The P80s single engine was more then both of the ME262s combined. The P80 is faster, Has a higher surface ceiling, has a higher rate of climb, a better weight to thrust ratio, and turned better. Really the ONLY advantage the 262 has is the cannons. Although the P80 still has 6 .50 cals, so its not like its flawed.
-BigBOBCH
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I really cannot see any aspect of the Me262 that beats the P-80.
4x30mm will trump 6x .50 cal just about every day of the week except Sunday, and only then between 11:59PM and Monday.
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4x30mm will trump 6x .50 cal just about every day of the week except Sunday, and only then between 11:59PM and Monday.
Not when the 50 cals are the only one with a gun solution :t
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4x30mm will trump 6x .50 cal just about every day of the week except Sunday, and only then between 11:59PM and Monday.
What about the Holidays?
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Not when the 50 cals are the only one with a gun solution :t
Excellent point :aok :lol
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Compare the test data...
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf)
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-80/P-80-85123.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-80/P-80-85123.pdf)
Note that the P-80A would turn circles around the Me 262, and possessed a far greater rate of roll as well.
I don't think there's much doubt that the Lockheed was the superior air to air fighter of the two.
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As a Luftwaffle... I would so much rather 6 M2s over 4 MK108s, if I was to be fighting against another jet fighter at least... the MK108s are one of the worst parts about the Me 262. They don't give you much flexibility.
Then again, I'd rather 4 Hispanos over either armament *cough* Meteor *cough*
I have a feeling that people in the first few posts were thinking of the Airacomet, as a 'contemporary' to the Me 262.
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Good input. I do not know the performance of the P-80. There is one factor that make a big difference, pilots.
Pilot quality was one of the Germans weak points by the time the 262 was finally operational . I don't have any good reference on the P-80A . Got some good stuff on the F-80C . I have a long love for the F-80 . I am unsure of the version I think it was the C . It was still being operated by the JSDAF in 1974 at Misawa AFB . They also were flying the F-86 at the time .
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LOL .. well .. I could be wrong :)
(not the first time)
. . the swept wings and lifting fuselage design worked very well on the 262
.. would have been interesting to see how they matched in some air-to-air fun for sure.
It's interesting to note that the 262 still posted higher speeds than the P-80 at higher alts on Widewings tables.
262 seems to like 20-25k while the P-80 seems to enjoy 8k-12k for top speeds.
..and aye, engines out on the wings would be a liability in a roll and dive away attempt..
.. even tryin to dive away from a P-80 would be a bad idea as it gets faster lower than the 262 does.
I'd hafta come in high and boom an zoom the P-80 .. treat it like a zeke :)
-GE aka Frank
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4x30mm will trump 6x .50 cal just about every day of the week except Sunday, and only then between 11:59PM and Monday.
I'll take that bet.
In many cases the 6/.50 cals were better that then 30mm cannons. No, not in raw damage but in ballistics and accuracy. The more I compare the 2 weapons platforms the more I see that the 30mm had only 1 thing in its favor and that is the obvious: damage per round. There is a much larger room for error with the 6/50's. At the speeds in which those jets were moving, I'd be willing to put my money on the 6/50's. With that said, I think the quad 20mm Hispano's would have been better yet for the P80. I still dont know why the Germans placed so much trust in the 30mm, I think over-kill and too close for comfort when using a 262 or 110 vs bombers. That is just me though.
Who would rather have a Me262 w/ quad German 151/20 20mm with more 3X the ammo and far better velocity and ballistics while retaining more than enough firepower to knock anything out of the sky??? I would without a doubt.
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P-80 would cost more perk points which means that the LW could fly 262s more often. On the other hand, the lower ENY of the 262 prevented its use if/when the axis were rolling over the allied.
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Didn't the p-80 and a few other A/c at that time use the faster firing An/M2 .50cal?
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P80 would not meed HT's criteria,
The Meteor is on the edge, since it did engage in combat in WW2.
Meteor III is not far away from the 262.
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P80 would not meed HT's criteria,
The Meteor is on the edge, since it did engage in combat in WW2.
Meteor III is not far away from the 262.
TA 152H is in the game. I've read where only 10 were built and saw little action.
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USAF testing:
"Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter."
Ethell and Price 1994, p. 180.
Speed is life. Speed means ability to engage and disengage at will.
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USAF testing:
"Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter."
Ethell and Price 1994, p. 180.
Speed is life. Speed means ability to engage and disengage at will.
From a report done by Al Boyd from post war testing at Wright Field.
The P-80 was easier to handle and had better visibility.
Supposedly this test was hidden away/suppressed.
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4x30mm will trump 6x .50 cal just about every day of the week except Sunday, and only then between 11:59PM and Monday.
In-game. It has been discussed to end before in these forums that in-game ballistic characteristics of our MK108 30mms are almost lazer-gun acurate compared to real-life. I forget the hard numbers, but it was something like 15-25 foot random hit-box at 200-300 meters would more acuratley represent the German's 30mm balistics. They were used in the real world more in a fashion of spray and pray, here in the game we use them as accurate slow-velocity high-drop-rate potatoes. But similarly to the ones modeled in the game, when and if they made contact with an enemy AC in real-life, boy did they make a noticable contact.
In a dogfight between a P-80 and Me-262 I'd imagine the gun solutions would be mostly brief snap-shots, 1-2 seconds of pulling the trigger, and in that situation I think a P-80 would be stronger as it may not kill the 262 in one sucessful solution, but it could damage it and then put it in a situation to get sadled up for a solid kill. With the 262, it would be hit or miss, either he's gets lucky and lands a shot that most likely puts the P-80 out of the fight, or he misses repeatedly, and given the information provided in this thread it seems the longer a Me-262 has to hang around and fight a P-80, the less likely it is to fly away the winner.
So, if this discussion isn't to take into account any AH factors, then it isn't a far-fetched conclusion to draw that 6 balisticly acurate .50-cals with a lead-computing gunsight would give 4 balisticly accurate 30mms with a revi sight a very good run for theirs.
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Would that be the EZ42 sight?
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P-80 was a bit of a dog compared to the 262, not as fast, slower climber, bled 'E' faster due to low power output.
Please note the words 'compared to'
.. the P-80 was faster than the Mustang ..just not as fast as the 262 by a significant margin.
Prolly a good thing it didn't make the 'show', even a D-9 would have had it for lunch with half a chance.
Just my 2 copper.
-GE aka Frank
Nope.
4x30mm will trump 6x .50 cal just about every day of the week except Sunday, and only then between 11:59PM and Monday.
annnnd Nope.
P-80 all day/night/dawn/dusk/etc. long
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Think 'Eric Hartmann' tactics . . not dog fighting.
The 30mm premise was to blow buffs outta the sky .. it did that very well.
I had the opportunity to chat with a B-17 waist gunner long ago.. he saw a 262 dive into his group, line up, and blow one of his buddies right out of the sky, then the 262 did a low G loop up .. all the while the Mustang top cover was diving .. the 262 came down, lined up on this guys wingman, blew him out of the sky, then dove away in a shallow dive.
It happened so fast he never had a chance to get a bead on it.
The Mustang's never got close.
-GE
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P80 would not meed HT's criteria,
The Meteor is on the edge, since it did engage in combat in WW2.
Meteor III is not far away from the 262.
Check out my op . Not a wish list thing just wanted opinions from some of the guys that are more learned than I . Was hoping widowmaker and some of those guys that I have to read the posts twice would contribute .
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Think 'Eric Hartmann' tactics . . not dog fighting.
The 30mm premise was to blow buffs outta the sky .. it did that very well.
I had the opportunity to chat with a B-17 waist gunner long ago.. he saw a 262 dive into his group, line up, and blow one of his buddies right out of the sky, then the 262 did a low G loop up .. all the while the Mustang top cover was diving .. the 262 came down, lined up on this guys wingman, blew him out of the sky, then dove away in a shallow dive.
It happened so fast he never had a chance to get a bead on it.
The Mustang's never got close.
-GE
I don't disagree, especially if a 262 got the jump on a P-80 like he was jumping a formation of buffs, one good solid bead and there would be nothing but pieces. But the Mk108 was almost perfect for attacking large buffs in a variety of situations, they're big and slow and flew in tight formations. Not the hardest target to hit even with 4 random dispersing potato guns. It's effectiveness against a faster, smaller and more maneuverable target though, while certainly lethal if it connected, would be less adapative or reliable for results given multiple situations like the P-80s armament.
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TA 152H is in the game. I've read where only 10 were built and saw little action.
59 were built and used, many more were built in the factory waiting delivery when the allies captured it. In a couple of sources they quote that only ten were ever working at the same time but that is not true.
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TA 152H is in the game. I've read where only 10 were built and saw little action.
That would mean that they saw no action as P-51s and P-38s destroyed 14 Ta152s at Neuhausen on Jan 16 1945. The Harman Ta152 book lists 43 WNr (Ta152H) and some Ta152Cs, plus the Eagle Ta152 book lists even more WNr.
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That would mean that they saw no action as P-51s and P-38s destroyed 14 Ta152s at Neuhausen on Jan 16 1945. The Harman Ta152 book lists 43 WNr (Ta152H) and some Ta152Cs, plus the Eagle Ta152 book lists even more WNr.
My source is Hitchcock latest 152 book that list 57 H models and 2 C models. What I think he read or saw was that there were only ever ten that were air worthy at one time. Which in hitchcock book at least is pointed out to be false.
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The Eagle book is the Hitchcock book, is it not?
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The Eagle book is the Hitchcock book, is it not?
yup
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The TA 152 shot down some 2 Tempests as well.
Anyway, the Meteor III was in service, did engage with the enemy, but only scored kills on V-1 drones.
It was in squadron strengts well before the war ended, so it either almost or completely meets HTC's criteria.
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As a Luftwaffle... I would so much rather 6 M2s over 4 MK108s, if I was to be fighting against another jet fighter at least... the MK108s are one of the worst parts about the Me 262. They don't give you much flexibility.
Then again, I'd rather 4 Hispanos over either armament *cough* Meteor *cough*
I have a feeling that people in the first few posts were thinking of the Airacomet, as a 'contemporary' to the Me 262.
I almost fell off my chair when you said this. I can't hit ANYTHING with the mk108s when im in a jet but I can hit with them in a 109. But in jet week I could kill any jet that came up to me, I won't mention any names but there was one that tried picking me when I just upped that got nailed, and I didn't ho. I woul like to go 262 vs. p80.