Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: jimson on May 22, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
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I've been toying with an ongoing, strategic, winnable war concept for AvA.
As it stands, we cannot use the MA concept of territory capture for an automatic win. If the arena gets it's bases run, the reset defaults to an everything enabled MA state.
Whatever we do has to be manual.
This idea is a fairly simple, mostly unsupervised strategic game that can can be "won."
To further differentiate AvA from the other arenas, I have removed base capture as the criteria for a war to be won.
Base capture simply becomes a strategic option rather than the main focus.
Victory won't be based on base capture, but on a combination of strategic targets destroyed and number of enemies killed.
Base capture will be possible and can be done to gain strategic position from which to launch attacks on enemy strats, but will not in itself, be a factor in victory.
The foremost objective will be to destroy the enemies factories. Once they are destroyed, they will not regenerate for the length of the set up.
This will represent the total destruction of the enemies war material production capability.
I believe we can set the arena so that factory destruction does not otherwise have an automatic effect.
On some terrains, these factories are deep within enemy territory or tucked in out of the way places. It will be players choice whether to use bombers, fighter bombers or ground vehicles for these strat attacks.
Depending on how difficult this is to accomplish, city strats could also be added.
The second factor will be a higher number of enemy kills. These numbers will be taken from the AH stats and will be separated by aircraft/vehicle country origin. Those that cannot be distinguished, such as those accomplished with ship or field guns, chutes, or any aircraft/vehicles that are substituted and in use by both sides will be thrown out of the totals.
Once either countries factories have all been destroyed, the kill numbers will be counted and if the prevailing country also has the higher number of kills, they will have won the war.
If the country does not have a higher number of kills, the war will continue until both conditions are met by either country.
Once a victory has been determined, the arena will either be reset back to the beginning, advanced on the same map or changed to a new set up and new terrain.
Strategic targets will only be in play between the hours of 6pm to midnight est. At all other times the targets will be hardened to indestructible.
The arena will be open for dogfighting at all times.
There will be no time of day restrictions on kills of other players.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/killtotals-1.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/ROOKSLOSE.jpg)
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Thinking outside the box?
:aok
Perhaps you could find out how many AC were in theater. When the number is up, the war is over. Last government standing wins.
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Thinking outside the box?
:aok
Perhaps you could find out how many AC were in theater. When the number is up, the war is over. Last government standing wins.
Interesting.
Might be too realistic though, and really throw it in favor of the Allies.
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what would make this interesting and maybe throw it off a bit is the constant side switching to balance the sides. No one really has a true home country in the AvA that im aware of so there may not be a point to winning the war so to speak. I like the idea though, maybe make it a special night once a week?
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what would make this interesting and maybe throw it off a bit is the constant side switching to balance the sides. No one really has a true home country in the AvA that im aware of so there may not be a point to winning the war so to speak. I like the idea though, maybe make it a special night once a week?
Well, people do side switch but they tend to favor one side or the other, and such affiliations could get stronger.
I view it as a way for the whole arena to have more of a point. Give people a reason to fly missions and such, create a place for bomber pilots etc.
It's been said many times that there are two main type of players The strategic minded who are goal oriented and like to have objectives and the "fight for the sake of fighting" folks.
While the latter can occur as a byproduct of the former, the reverse...not so much.
By making kill numbers a part of the criteria, even the furballers contribute to an overall objective.
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many of the AvA maps are based on actual battles though. take Okinawa for instance, the US wanted the island, the Japanese wanted to keep it.
Make the objectives for this, US makes beachhead (obj1), US kills certain number of aircraft (obj2), US kills certain number of GVs (obj3), US captures major locations on the island (obj4), US takes island (obj5 total victory).
Japan holds US at beach and maintains absolute control (obj1 after a period of time total victory), Japan hold US at beachhead (obj2), Japan kills certain number of aircraft (obj3), Japan kills certain number of GVs (obj4), Japan sinks certain number of ships (CVs count as 3) (obj 5).
What do you think? If you have enough people watching the battle daily you can keep score easily <S>
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I agree bar. Maybe This would promote staying on one side more.
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I agree bar. Maybe This would promote staying on one side more.
THE Problem with not side-switching in the ava is that the numbers change rather rapidly in there. it could go from evenly matched battles, to a one sided slaughter in the blink of an eye. there are those of us that willingly, and quickly switch to keep things even........
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how can you win if you don't slaughter the bad guys? :D
I'm with cap on this one. if we had regular squads in there with the numbers we had a few years ago, ok time side switching. but the way things are now, you need it or things will go askew pretty quickly.
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many of the AvA maps are based on actual battles though. take Okinawa for instance, the US wanted the island, the Japanese wanted to keep it.
Make the objectives for this, US makes beachhead (obj1), US kills certain number of aircraft (obj2), US kills certain number of GVs (obj3), US captures major locations on the island (obj4), US takes island (obj5 total victory).
Japan holds US at beach and maintains absolute control (obj1 after a period of time total victory), Japan hold US at beachhead (obj2), Japan kills certain number of aircraft (obj3), Japan kills certain number of GVs (obj4), Japan sinks certain number of ships (CVs count as 3) (obj 5).
What do you think? If you have enough people watching the battle daily you can keep score easily <S>
I like these ideas, but IMO they are more suited to special event nights.
I'm not saying we shouldn't do those things as well, but as the AvA is open 7 days a week, I am looking for a way to run a strategic sort of game on a mostly CM unattended basis, for that it needs to be ultra simplified and easy to track.
The more specific and complicated it gets, the less likely it is to get done.
Also keep in mind that with the lower population we have there are a lot of times the arena is empty. To keep unopposed tool shedding at a minimum, it helps to be able to have just a few settings to change during "off hours."
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it wont hurt to give it a go and see what heppens. if no one bites game play as we know it now isnt affected but you could get info and changes that need to be made to make it what you want it to be.
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I love the strategic idea wish the MA's would go this way! Keep it!!!
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vote Drop it. a few nights flew in bombers to strike teh strats but tehy were all ready burning on both sides.
What s pack the ava Jet week, WWI week and squad night. What empties it out, BOB map and heavy rotation of PTO maps.
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a few nights flew in bombers to strike teh strats but tehy were all ready burning on both sides.
No, there were targets available all week, even on the very last night there were still plenty of strats left to hit.
Just because some were burning didn't meant they were out of play, the objective was to take them down to 20%
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/thursdaynight6-9-11.jpg)
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Yeah 1azbeer the strats were still in play the entire week. Now, if you were looking to grab a bunch of perk points for dropping in the middle of the strat and taking out a huge chunk, the MA is the place for you. At least, not for last week's objective. Not saying that it couldn't still be done. Just saying that finding a building here or there on the outskirts of a strat that is down to < 40% might not appeal to a level bomber.
That is why attack planes were also available for precision strikes. I found it refreshing not to just be involved in a dogfight only arena. :salute
I think 1azbeer, you may be more interested in the latest version of the AvA warz. This one still not a level bombers dream, but truly a bomber's dream target >>> 12 enemy fleets in a small area.
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We are asked for our thoughts about the current idea, I don't agree with it so I am now being ridiculed for it :huh. Perk points what are they? Perks points mean absolutely nothing in the AVA never have and hopefully never will.
I fly the AVA about 95 % of time so I have seen what works and what doesn't. (Always have since the Combat Arena days in Aces High I)
The AVA has always been a small group of dedicated players who for the most part appreciate the volunteer work the Staff puts in.
The war thing has been tried once before and about a week, problem was the map never rotated, numbers dwindled.
I will just wait and see what happens, but usually we go though this once a year, "we need to change the AVA make more appealing for others to come in" and which bring in MA regulars only to hasten the regulars to find other things to do till the MA'ers go home. And then its usually its a year long effort to rebuild the numbers. So try it. see what happens, try to surprise me.
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vote Drop it. a few nights flew in bombers to strike teh strats but tehy were all ready burning on both sides.
What s pack the ava Jet week, WWI week and squad night. What empties it out, BOB map and heavy rotation of PTO maps.
1azbeer,
Did you understand the objectives? Your post suggested that you saw that strats were already hit. To play the hand that was dealt last week, you needed to pull up your clipboard and check field status for your opponent's country. There you would have seen all of the percentages of the strats that were your targets. There should have been no surprises and certainly by all accounts Allies Radar was the only of these strats bottomed out to 0 % if I recall correctly. So, I have to assume that you were looking for a target that had not been hit or lightly damaged. The rules were changed to present an aspect of winning a campaign that did not involve the number of bases that were captured.
I am glad that you find some of the attractions in the arena to your liking. I probably know you very well by your in game ID, but judging from your post, it did not sound like you were familiar with this new concept, so I used the perk system as an example of what not to look for in this type of war. Basically, you wouldn't have many opportunities to hit fresh strat targets past the first day, because once the target was hit it did not rebuild.(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/thursdaynight6-9-11.jpg)
That seemed to be your complaint, that you flew around in bombers and couldn't find a target. That sir is a legitimate complaint. As far as the country status goes it was by design, and a good sign that folks were actively seeking out their targets and the game progressed as one would expect a week's worth of bombing missions into enemy territory would.
I would make this suggestion, because I found it useful. When looking for viable strat targets, maximize the object detail slider (which ever one is on top). Once zoomed in you can tell where the undamaged buildings are. Now, how great of a level bomber are you? I usually compensate by increasing my salvo and spreading delay a bit longer and try to aim just on the leading edge of my target.
I too have been playing since AH1 and totally disagree with just about everything that you had to say in your original post. This doesn't mean that either of us is wrong. We just have difference in tastes. Now, if that sounds harsh, then I am sure there are plenty that share your views and would agree with you and tell me that my opinion was off base.
We are asked for our thoughts about the current idea, I don't agree with it so I am now being ridiculed for it :huh. Perk points what are they? Perks points mean absolutely nothing in the AVA never have and hopefully never will.
I fly the AVA about 95 % of time so I have seen what works and what doesn't. (Always have since the Combat Arena days in Aces High I)
The AVA has always been a small group of dedicated players who for the most part appreciate the volunteer work the Staff puts in.
The war thing has been tried once before and about a week, problem was the map never rotated, numbers dwindled.
I will just wait and see what happens, but usually we go though this once a year, "we need to change the AVA make more appealing for others to come in" and which bring in MA regulars only to hasten the regulars to find other things to do till the MA'ers go home. And then its usually its a year long effort to rebuild the numbers. So try it. see what happens, try to surprise me.
More appealing yes, but not trying to put off the regulars that do attend like yourself. You say that Jet week and WW1 week bring in big numbers. It also, chases away regulars that want nothing to do with jets or WW1 aircraft in dogfights. What Jimson and staff have been doing is looking outside of the box of just having a dueling arena for historical aircraft. The key word is JUST. That means that you can still get your dogfights going but you can also contribute to an objective to win a war. This is especially attractive to those of us who are not on in the peak AvA playing hours that seem to only last for about 2 to 3 hours. That alone should signal to you that simply catering only to the FEW die hard regular AvA dogfighters is not propelling the arena in a competitive direction. Players pay to play, so when they click that arena button, they are going to expect a rewarding experience.
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I guess we will see. since the fancy spread sheet to see who "Won", how about a one to show the actual numbers of people playing? Have the numbers improved?
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Some staff member may have the answer to your question, but these are stats that suggest activity to say the least. I do have stats for the first jet week which was August of last year but not in any form that I could use it for a direct comparison. In any light, I don't see what anyone would object to about having it both ways. Jimson is working overly hard to make sure that whatever his setups include, they don't exclude regular AvA action.
Scores: Axis (Bishops)-Strat points 372 Kills 125 total 497
Allies (Knights)-Strat points 206 Kills 248 total 454
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,314753.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,314753.0.html)
Now I do have some constructive criticisms, that my good friend Jimson, I am sure, will be glad to consider. Your criticism of strat targets being burning, was legitimate. If you would try and understand the whole picture, I believe that you would understand why the targets were burning and that was a good healthy sign. Also, this concept is new and once you better know what to expect when launching bombers, maybe you would have a more favorable impression of this type of game play the next time it was run.
I brought up a couple of suggestion to Jimson, on how we might better even the matchup between bombers and interceptors, so that one set of bombers couldn't run the entire map. Basically, the type of Early War and Mid War behavior that turns folks like myself off. For the most part I believe the response was very positive.
I am sorry that it seems to you that I am attacking you. My intent is to shed light on areas that you may not be aware of or just weren't considering.
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I dont fly in the AvA because when i first tryed it out months ago there was no point to the room except 1v1 turn fight duels or if you met someone at alt they screamed for the deck hoping you would get in a turn fight with them and would scream and cry if you BnZed them, i will not turn fight if my ride cant turn. I saw no point in the AvA room there was no objective nothing for a squad to strive for no objective to achive . i read the forms see the posts complaining about THOSE MA pilots that messed up my 1v1. I like what im seeing in that people are trying to advance the AvA game play and understand that not everyone likes to fly the MA but there is atleast there is an objective there. To those trying to grow the AvA i salute you and to the ones that stomp your feet and hold your breath till you turn blue because it is changing be carefull what you wish for for i would say close the AvA and devote the servers and bandwith to somthing that does advance game play.please forgive miss spellings.
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I like what im seeing in that people are trying to advance the AvA game play and understand that not everyone likes to fly the MA but there is atleast there is an objective there.
Thats the whole thing. While it is really difficult to have objective based play, we can't have an auto win war map change, we have no usable perk system and everything has to be done manually, we are currently the only arena that can offer different objectives than base capture.
The trick is how to do it based on an open play arena and not an ersatz Special Events arena.
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Jimson that is true but as you know if things dont change its just another empty room taking up space. For the AvA to be a great full room you have to get the codeing to auto reset to a new map the coding is out there you just have to adapt it.
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why auto-reset? no one can beat the map the way it is now. auto-reset would do nothing for the arena. More players in the arena would do something for it, on the other hand.
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Hello,
Thanks for the support and criticisms. Two things to correct though. Jaeger, the way that staff members use smaller maps and assign fields, the map can absolutely be reset. Perhaps not in the last few months so much due to lower than usual activity, but still able to be easily achieved. And AHBolt, the code is NOT out there to auto reset the maps in the way that a two sided limited planeset may work. The maps can auto change no problem, the problem is when they do, the fields will have all planes enabled, and also the the 3 rd country has some effects ( I forget how that all porks it, but it does). The result is that staff members use creativity to try and set win criteria that can be accurately tallied.
The result has been very positive to Challenges offered by Jaeger and others, but these are usually one time missions. What Jimson and others have worked tirelessly to provide is the closest thing to a full time objective for the arena.
My personal feeling (not necessarily shared by any of the AvA staff) is that the arena CAN present both objective play and historical dueling action. But in order for both to exist and thrive (in my opinion) there will have to be small concessions to each style of play. For example, radar, ordinance and altitude caps. Any thoughts?
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I still love the strategic game guys! :salute I'm just not a big fan of the pacific maps when it cycles back to Europe I'll be there!!
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Gents,
Salutations and Salute!
One of the main reasons I quit flying AvA was the way everyone 'games' the NOE and radar. No matter what the planeset, like TBolt says, everyone always drops to the deck so you can't see them on radar and they try and lose you in the weeds. You could have high alt planes like 109K4's, P51's and Jugs, and 99% of all fights are on the deck. So why even use a high alt plane set?
Suggestion - either get rid of the red dots altogether (my vote) and just use the DAR, or have Icons show up when they do get NOE.
One thing I notice between FA and AH - FA didn't have a 'zoom' view. You could identify the planes from what I would consider a 'reasonable' distance. That is not the case here in AH. I don't know why that is. Planes are very hard to pick up and track...(esp w/o padlock) - and I don't think it was as hard in 'real life' to track planes as it is AvA. I read somewhere that HTC said that 'full zoom view' mode is 'actual vision and magnification'. Hence when you are not in Full Zoom, everything is tiny and hard to see.
Another reason I stopped flying is also as TBolt says - a 'lack of objectives'. Furballing is fun, but that seems to be all AvA is good for. I can get into much bigger, more intense furballs in the DA or MA if that is all I'm looking for. For the AvA, smaller maps, 'doable' objectives in an evening or two, with automatic map resets (to a new map, or the same with an advanced war plane set) would be very cool.
At any rate, I may have stopped flying in AvA, but I still am keeping an eye on what's going on in there. Keep up the good work.
Cheese
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For example, radar, ordinance and altitude caps. Any thoughts?
People say they don't fly AVA because of the icons, people say they don't fly because they don't like the theater of war represented on any given week, people say they don't fly AVA because there are no objectives, people say they don't fly the AVA because the planes they like are not there every week, people say they don't like to fly AVA because of the attitudes about it being 1v1... Limit the radar, limit ords, and limit altitudes... Now we just gave people three more reasons to NOT want to fly in the arena.
We can have objective play within the boundaries allowed by the tools we have, and we can have furballs and we can have GV battles without putting more limitations on people. We could start with allowing some larger maps that can't be overrun so easily. Losing a couple of sacred cows like no enemy icons and going back to traditional radar instead of the full map dar we're using now. Offer people something that at least resembles what they're used to, only with an Axis and Allied setup.
Radar should be like the main arenas with single stations being able to be knocked out for given period of time. Ords should only be limited for historical reasons such as TBMs not having rockets on a Midway setup. Altitude restrictions is just another way of telling people how to fly and that's never attracted people. We should present the arena in terms of what people can do instead of what they can't do. The way we operate right now we're like a small mom and pops fish restaurant sitting next to a bright and shiny brand new Red Lobster. Only in our case the Red Lobster is the Main Arena. They have a huge neon sign a well lit parking lot and a brightly lit restaurant. While we're sitting around with the lights off expecting to be noticed. You want more people you're going to have to offer them more of what they like. If you're not willing to do that and want to stick to your own personal preferences... Get use to sitting in the dark alone. These are my opinions only not that of the rest of the AVA staff.
YMMV.
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Jimson that is true but as you know if things dont change its just another empty room taking up space. For the AvA to be a great full room you have to get the codeing to auto reset to a new map the coding is out there you just have to adapt it.
The reason we cannot use the auto reset function because it will default to an everything enabled 3 country set up, also we cannot choose which map it rotates to.
This would take some development by HTC and we have no control over this.
The best way we can mimic this is to set objectives and once they are reached, manually change the set up
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Biggest problem, ACES has a limited number of Players to split between the 9ish arenas.. High htech needs to try something to bring new players to teh game as a whole.
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Chilli the coading is there Fighter ace had it in there Historical room which was a AvA room that had different plane sets and victory conditions whi victory conditions was met the map reset to a new map so your statement that there is no code is just plain wrong so get your facts right
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Chilli the coading is there Fighter ace had it in there Historical room which was a AvA room that had different plane sets and victory conditions whi victory conditions was met the map reset to a new map so your statement that there is no code is just plain wrong so get your facts right
His facts are right. This isn't Fighter Ace.
- oldman
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Chilli the coading is there Fighter ace had it in there Historical room which was a AvA room that had different plane sets and victory conditions whi victory conditions was met the map reset to a new map so your statement that there is no code is just plain wrong so get your facts right
All the arenas are based on the MA code. The MA's only allow certain maps and they do not use a custom set up that needs to hold through a reset, The only victory condition is base capture. For us, we would have to have a feature that allows us to choose a series of maps to rotate that include the custom limited 2 country plane set.
We have been told directly by the company that this and different parameters for victory would require a total re-write of the server code and an extensive re-write of the client code.
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Offer people something that at least resembles what they're used to, only with an Axis and Allied setup.
At this point I really think this is the best idea.
I think the ultimate best option is to have the arena setup on an automatic rotation (through the various AvA setups, excluding jetweek) with a map reset triggering the next setup. With pretty much everything else like the MA. But as was mentioned this is just not possible at this time. :(
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i like it the way it is and the way the staff has been doing it. lets not forget the AvA is SUPPOSED to be different than the MA, thats what attracted the strong group of regulars to begin with.
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It seems we are in another one of those thread cycles, where someone wants to make the AvA like the MAs because it isn't like the MAs. That's the draw of the AvA; it isn't the MAs.
In a concentrated effort to beat the dead horse; if the AvA setup doesn't agree with you, kindly go to one of the MAs and enjoy a setup that isn't like the AvA but is so like the MAs that you want to change the AvA to. :D
Seems like a simple solution to fix the issue that so many have with the AvA. :salute
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So what is the successful model we should follow?
At least the MA has an objective.
Since we can't use the Auto map reset that is triggered by base capture and have to do everything manually anyhow, I think the trick is to take what helps the MA, a game play objective and incorporate it a little differently in AvA, objectives other than base capture or a combination.
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Do the AvA regulars think there is something broken? Is the current setup unsuccessful for those who spend their AH time in the AvA?
It just seems there is an occasional AvA "drive by" from someone who doesn't necessarily spend a lot of time in the AvA but, wants to reconfigure it to be like the MAs. There seems to be a flurry of thread input and then they disappear. Just a thought...... :salute
Objectives are hard to achieve with our compatible smaller numbers on any given night. It's a great idea to have an object in each setup but, difficult to get enough folks going "same way, same day" to achieve them. When some guys have a short time to spend in game and others just don't want to go after the objective, it's hard to concentrate effort on the objective. Not sure what the right mix of objective and player numbers should be. Case in point for this week. In an effort to battle the carriers and polish my extremely rusty TBM torpedo attack technique, I was forced to dump the torp and turn to defend against the air attack because there weren't enough players on to escort/fighter sweep.
:salute to the AvA staff for the effort in presenting a new scenario every week. Much appreciated! :aok
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Do the AvA regulars think there is something broken?
I think only 3 out of the 10 think something is broken.
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how about this for a setup. bases you have to capture in order to get better planes. 1 base where knits get the K4 and ,in the same base, Bishops get the P38L if they can capture it. some of the other bases set the same way. the rest of the bases set with preset planes for setup. the 2 uber planes would be a bonus and worth fighting for. so now you have an objective.
also strats must be taken down to certain percentage for points. another objective
sides that capture, not hold, 3 bases, get bonus plane from a pool decided by CM for that particular week. also an objective
what do you say to that?
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Do the AvA regulars think there is something broken? Is the current setup unsuccessful for those who spend their AH time in the AvA?
It just seems there is an occasional AvA "drive by" from someone who doesn't necessarily spend a lot of time in the AvA but, wants to reconfigure it to be like the MAs. There seems to be a flurry of thread input and then they disappear. Just a thought...... :salute
:salute to the AvA staff for the effort in presenting a new scenario every week. Much appreciated! :aok
Hi puma!
What is it exactly that you are objecting to and what is it you advocating?
Do you want a set up with no objectives, basically an AvA dueling arena? or are you OK with the format of the past week?
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Howdy Jimson! :salute
I'm not objecting to or advocating anything. Just making a couple of observations and should have said that up front. I very much appreciate the efforts of you and the rest of the staff. As I said below, it's a tough task to come up with the right mix of objective and player numbers. I like the idea of objectives that you guys have started developing. Not sure what the right mix should be to up the numbers. Keep up the great effort gents! :salute
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So you are OK with an objective based element included in the AvA but not exactly like the base taking only structure that is the MA?
That is what I want and we are the only arena who can do that.
Because we can't use the auto reset function that is determined by number of bases captured and even a base capture war win would have to be done manually, we might as well explore other criteria as well, so that there continues to be a distinct difference between the 2 arenas.
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Yes, I am. I especially liked the setup last week with strategic objective included. It was fun when guys were flying bombers, and with escorts sometimes. At times there was alot going on around the map to deal with. Our relatively smaller numbers keep the hording to a minimum and make the game play bait more realistic, in my opinion.
When I would carry bombs in an attempt to hurt something on the ground (which most of the time is akin to a chicken trying to set the time on an atomic clock), someone would inevitably show up and the dog fight was on. Some nice multi-role action.
I know it is a challenge for you guys on the staff to come up fresh ideas in an attempt to attract new converts to the AvA. Keep up the great effort! :salute
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Cool,
Well, we were having a lot of problems with the carrier set up so we went back to last weeks set up to finish out this week.
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The close in distance of the carriers made it easy to get it on. But, when trying to fly the TBM and sharpen up my extremely rusty torpedo attack technique, it was necessary to dump the torp and turn & burn because there weren't enough players on to oppose the rice burners. The TBM can sure do some nice piroets though. :x
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I think only 3 out of the 10 think something is broken.
:lol
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Bug injected some well appreciated humor. I spend more time on the forums talking about the AvA than I do flying it. :bolt:
:furious Sorry, but I don't see anything going on during the daytime when I am able to fly. Jimson gave me something to do while no one else was on. That was appreciated very much.
I think that a lot of us that are die hard AvA advocates, are at our patience end at trying to convince anyone to join in the AvA. It was a nice quiet place to try out my newly acquired skills, when I first started flying there years ago, and through all the changes, it still is.
What has gone VERY wrong has been the perception that it receives on these forums (not talking about this thread but others in the past).
Honestly, I spend more time in the Main Arena, and try and follow my squad, and give them support. I just wish that a few of us would dedicate certain times or days or anything other than an empty arena all day. Then, the numbers would grow, and I would most likely hardly step foot in the MA at peak times.