Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scotty55OEFVet on May 23, 2011, 11:41:34 AM
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Ok, I know this is probably a dumb question, but as my Squad Leader once told me, the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. I find it very difficult for me to aim my cannon with the way the IL2's "gunsight" is situated. Now, are we negated the ability to use different gunsights because its just a pain, or because the Russians only used that sort of layout in their Sturmoviks??? ALERT, this is a real question lol!
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The gunsight is metal....
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The gunsight is metal....
Ahhhhhhh ha ha ha ha ha. lol, thats what the hell I figured but was like cmon, really? Thanks for the info buddy! :salute
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You'll find the same thing on the A-20G.
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You'll find the same thing on the A-20G.
But there are pictures showing the A20 equiped with a reflector type gunsight.
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But are those the version we have in-game?
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Check at the bottom of the page from this link. Cockpit illustration from IL2 handbook. Some IL2 had gunsights. PBP1 types.
http://redskyblackdeath.wordpress.com/the-shturmovik/
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Yes and just inches above that you have a video clearly showing no gunsight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FukYgXqM0&feature=player_embedded
The IL2 had many variants. It's no stretch to imagine one of the later ones had a gunsight.
Again, going back to "is that the version we have in-game?"
Answer: no, we have a different version.
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To remain faithful to the historically correct technology,
get out your Crayolas and draw one on the glass!
<rimshot!>
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I wonder if they ever tried to put a ASh-82 FN Radial Engine on the IL2 like they did on the Lagg3 :D
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Not that I ever recall. The immediate successor was the IL-10, at the very tail end of the war and post-war. The IL-10 followed the heavily-armored-inline-engine setup. Perhaps because they already knew that formula worked and with such a heavy slow plane the lower drag profile helped top speed.
After that, they started moving to jets like the IL-28 Beagle for bombing but more jabo like MiGs and such for fighter-bomber rather than pure bomber.
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I'm probably wrong but I would speculate that streamlining is not that important on such slow planes, and that better engine power would really improve the plane considering the weight of the aircraft. A V12 inline is probably easier to protect from ground fire than a radial, and when a plane worked they would not change it too much I guess ;) That's it for the 'what if' scenario :old:
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They probably reused or modified many aspects of the armor bathtub, in which case switching to a radial would leave it open to major damage.
I think in the slower heavier planes, reducing drag is all the more important.
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I wonder if they ever tried to put a ASh-82 FN Radial Engine on the IL2 like they did on the Lagg3 :D
According to what I've read, there was only one example...
http://bp2.blogger.com/_KezhQ6waZT0/SFoWVI42dJI/AAAAAAAAEtw/JMRiWx21yqo/s1600-h/il2M82.jpg (http://bp2.blogger.com/_KezhQ6waZT0/SFoWVI42dJI/AAAAAAAAEtw/JMRiWx21yqo/s1600-h/il2M82.jpg)
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According to what I've read, there was only one example...
http://bp2.blogger.com/_KezhQ6waZT0/SFoWVI42dJI/AAAAAAAAEtw/JMRiWx21yqo/s1600-h/il2M82.jpg[/url
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_KezhQ6waZT0/SFoWVI42dJI/AAAAAAAAEtw/JMRiWx21yqo/s1600-h/il2M82.jpg)
haha they DID try it :D
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He makes a good point though. In most of the airplanes you can select just about any kind of sight you want. How many P-51s had a Japanese Nave sight for instance. So it would be nice to be able to select a sight in an IL2. And what about that straight line thing in the B5N?
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This is a consistency issue, think of all the EW Japanese aircraft that shouldn't have a reflector sight, or the majority of P-40Bs.
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Why can we have custom gunsites? We should all be using whatever the plane had, that is it. Right? If not in all than why at all?
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Way to make a mountain out of a molehill folks.
Simple fact is you're just changing the reflected pattern, not the gunsight itself. These few craft have no reflector, so nothing to change.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but....
"Deal with it!"
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"Deal with it!"
I think this is going into my sig Krusty.
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If you want to remove it from all context, go for it!
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It would only be funny without the right context :angel:
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Reflector Gunsight - The device with a glass reflector plate you look through. Has an internal light bulb that shines either directly up or indirectly via mirror through first a graticule image plate or lens then the paralax lens to refelct from the angled glass reflector plate.
Graticule - The image you see reflected onto the angled glass reflector plate on top of your gunsight.
Rehostat - The dial used to vary the intensity of the gunsight's light bulb. Too bright of a reflection could cause a double image of the gunsight or make it hard to see ground targets such as tanks in WW2. In Aces High the rheostat is the Alpha slider in the gunsight selection menu. Sliding it almost all the way to the right enables you to see more of your ground target and your hit sprites on your con. Counter intuitive but, it lessens your visual clutter and stands out as soon as you have it on your target.
In the Aces High IL-2 3M, the gunsight is the wire pattern in the wind screen. This was the default gunsight for the IL2 until later in WW2. Eventualy the IL2 used the same PBP1 gunsight as out Yak and La.
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get your zippo and a hammer,heat up the metal with the hammer and forge it with the zippo
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This is a consistency issue, think of all the EW Japanese aircraft that shouldn't have a reflector sight, or the majority of P-40Bs.
Which Japanese aircraft have a reflector site when they should not in AH?
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It is pretty sad that all I asked is why cant it be changed, was given the answer immediately and people make fun of it. Was an honest question and I was never big on the Air War or Air aspect of WW2 and was a ground pounder in Afghanistan. Was just curious cuz Im sure more than a few russians would have possibly welcomed a different gunsight :D
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Please what early war AH fighters have been erroniously fitted with a reflector gunsight?
Type 89 Telescope "Tube" gunsight was used in some of the following japanese fighters. All later japanese fighters used reflector gunsights.
A5M2 "Claude"
Ki27 "Abdul"
Ki43-I "Oscar"<---In both cases the (-I) is not the primary version that flew in combat. The primary combat versions
Ki44-I "Tojo"<---used the "Type 100 gunsight" based off the German Ogiee design.
The B239 Finnish version of the Brewster Buffalo was retrofitted by the Finns with the T.h.m.40 reflector gunsight. The Brewster Buffalo used by Navy and Marine forces had the "MK 3 Model 2 Sight" telescope gunsight like the F4F but, may have been upgraded to N3 reflector gunsights by Midway as the F4F were. Export Brewsters to Great Britian were upgraded with MkIII gunsights.
The P40B originaly used an external "Ring and Post" gunsight. Those in Burma and China flown by the AVG used them. The P40B was quickly upgraded to N2 and N3 reflector gunsights when available by the USAAF and RAF in all theaters. In the case of how Aces High deals with the P40B and its gunsight, a parallel argument is appropriate for putting PBP-1 or PAK-1 gunsights into the IL-2M(23mm VYa) and IL-2 Type 3M(NS-37) in Aces High. A reflector gunsight is a superior aiming instrament for guns, bombs and rockets than a fixed ring or wind screen marker. As reflector gunsights became readily available the russians upgraded everything they could.
Guess you could make another wish for the IL2 in Aces High to be upgraded to a reflector gunsight.
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Please what early war AH fighters have been erroniously fitted with a reflector gunsight?
Type 89 Telescope "Tube" gunsight was used in some of the following japanese fighters. All later japanese fighters used reflector gunsights.
A5M2 "Claude"
Ki27 "Abdul"
Ki43-I "Oscar"<---In both cases the (-I) is not the primary version that flew in combat. The primary combat versions
Ki44-I "Tojo"<---used the "Type 100 gunsight" based off the German Ogiee design.
The B239 Finnish version of the Brewster Buffalo was retrofitted by the Finns with the T.h.m.40 reflector gunsight. The Brewster Buffalo used by Navy and Marine forces had the "MK 3 Model 2 Sight" telescope gunsight like the F4F but, may have been upgraded to N3 reflector gunsights by Midway as the F4F were. Export Brewsters to Great Britian were upgraded with MkIII gunsights.
The P40B originaly used an external "Ring and Post" gunsight. Those in Burma and China flown by the AVG used them. The P40B was quickly upgraded to N2 and N3 reflector gunsights when available by the USAAF and RAF in all theaters. In the case of how Aces High deals with the P40B and its gunsight, a parallel argument is appropriate for putting PBP-1 or PAK-1 gunsights into the IL-2M(23mm VYa) and IL-2 Type 3M(NS-37) in Aces High. A reflector gunsight is a superior aiming instrament for guns, bombs and rockets than a fixed ring or wind screen marker. As reflector gunsights became readily available the russians upgraded everything they could.
Guess you could make another wish for the IL2 in Aces High to be upgraded to a reflector gunsight.
Thank You Bustr! :salute
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Scotty, nobody was making fun of you. Some others don't seem to get it, is all.
Bustr, I would add to your comments for anybody else taking inspiration from them, that the P-40B was refitted with a reflector from an early time point, so that the majority in service had them. The difference is the IL2 served most of the war without one and only received a later modification at war's end. So arguing the P-40B has a gunsight is silly, because that's how it flew and fought, but arguing for a gunsight on the IL2 (IMO) is worse because that's not how it flew and not how it fought.
P.S. For those that want it..... why? It works well enough as-is!
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Scotty, nobody was making fun of you. Some others don't seem to get it, is all.
Bustr, I would add to your comments for anybody else taking inspiration from them, that the P-40B was refitted with a reflector from an early time point, so that the majority in service had them. The difference is the IL2 served most of the war without one and only received a later modification at war's end. So arguing the P-40B has a gunsight is silly, because that's how it flew and fought, but arguing for a gunsight on the IL2 (IMO) is worse because that's not how it flew and not how it fought.
P.S. For those that want it..... why? It works well enough as-is!
I am not arguing with your statement in regards to the entire P-40 series Krusty, but I disagree with it in specific regard to the P-40B model or earlier models that you are refering to.
The majority of early P-40s, especialy those exported across the Pacific and in combat before Pearl, did not have reflectors unless and until they were provided as an upgrade later in the war. But by that time the earliest models were bieng phased out by other newer aircraft including newer P-40s. And by that time the factory wasn't pumping out the early-model P-40s with reflector sights, they were later models. Going with the same "deal with it" mentality as you mentioned above, then the P-40B shouldn't have it the same as the IL-2, with the P-40E being equiped with it. That's easy because there are two versions of the P-40 in AH, but with the Il-2 we only have on bird in the game.
Another argument I think (I'll need to look up the facts to be sure) that is in favor of a reflector sight on the IL2 in AH - how early on were the AT rocket loadouts available to it in the field like as we have available on our Il-2s? I think those came out pretty late in the overall production run of the Il2 we have in-game as well. Would aircraft capable or updated to carry those rockets also coincide with aircraft equiped with a reflector sight? Was the NS-37 also not standard until later in that IL-2 production run too? My point is I feel the Il-2 we have in the game was modeled anyways on a later production run than an earlier one.
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Our IL2 is not an early model. Early models were single seaters. Then they cut a hole behind the cockpit and put a gunner there (in the open air) then later they actually built the plane with a rear seat, and with an enclosed gunner. The crux of the matter is there were MANY IL2 variant, only the last at the VERY end of the war having reflector sights included.
I don't fully believe your comments regarding P-40Bs and lack of reflectors. I believe it has been brought up before and contradicted in the past.
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I know Krusty. I'm getting old with tired eyes and the 50mil Il2 inner wire ring is too sloppy for that first 37mm round befor the recoil kicks the aim around on full zoom without a center marker.
If you zoom to about 400% on the first picture down in the link you will see a PBP or PAk in the Il2 through the windscreen. Also if the picture from the handbook is WW2 and not POST WW2 Cold War, then a gunsight is valid as SOP equiptment as they became available to the VVS. Like the USN, USM, AAF and RAF standardising, retrofitting and upgrading everything they flew with N2, N3, Mk8, N9 and MkIII as soon as they were available.
The only reason the VVS didn't have optical gunsights eariler is they didn't have the industry ramped up for it. Even our I16 has a PBP1 but, it should be a PAK-1 which is a copy of the Revi-1. Until around 43 the average VVS gunsight for most aircraft was drawn on the inside of the wind screen or a metal ring affair.
As soon as that segment of their war industry was pumping them out everything with forward firing guns got reflector gunsights. Befor that front line units upgraded on site as they could get the equipment which was pretty standard for the VVS until their aviation industry kicked into full production around late 43 to 44. Russia was a bit different than the US, Britan, Germany or Japan in that they didn't come into the war with an industry capable of a reliable or high output of sophisticated instraments enmass.
Babs is right about our Il2 ordinace in refrence to the time frame avaialbility of PBP and PAK gunsights for Il2. Hey it's not like we are arguing over an IL10........max speed around 340mph and one version had 4 NS-23 cannons, standard 2. The rear gunner had a BT-20 20mm.......it was rated for low level air to air combat.
http://redskyblackdeath.wordpress.com/the-shturmovik/
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/il10.shtml
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Our IL2 is not an early model. Early models were single seaters. Then they cut a hole behind the cockpit and put a gunner there (in the open air) then later they actually built the plane with a rear seat, and with an enclosed gunner. The crux of the matter is there were MANY IL2 variant, only the last at the VERY end of the war having reflector sights included.
I don't fully believe your comments regarding P-40Bs and lack of reflectors. I believe it has been brought up before and contradicted in the past.
I wouldn't believe them myself Krusty until I dig up some sources, you know better in this forum, and I'm jogging them from pure mortal memory on this issue.
My recollection is early P-40s pre-US involvement in WWII were being cranked out as they were one of a few aircraft at the time approved for lend-lease export, as such they were very basic and lacked many if not most provisions for combat capable aircraft when they got off the production line, including if I recall correctly their guns, radios, and (since they had no guns installed) no gunsights. Those comming off the production line that got shipped overseas weren't much if any different comming off the line than those marked to be flown by US services. Much like those that got delivered overseas, the ones delivered to the US needed provisioning of such things. I'm pretty sure one of the standard provisions for the P-40 by the US was a reflector sight, ontop of the guns and radio equipment.... however, and here's the kicker in my head why I don't think early P-40s should have a reflector at all, most these early US-provisioned P-40s didn't actually see any combat. The ones seeing the majority of combat, of the early P-40 series, were the ones exported from the US, and what they got provisioned or were capable of provisioning to them varied very very much from plane to plane and theatre to theatre, and many if not most did not have a reflector sight (which the pilots and their commanders wanted but I believe couldn't, to the best of their abilities and various circumstances, obtain).
Later model P-40s, post pearl-harbor, had more combat provisions installed in them at the factory and came off it more war-ready for both US delivieries (of cource) and those being exported to aid our allies in their war effort.
And my argument for the IL2 is more of speculation: that it apears we have one of the later production models, we certainly have the 37mm option that only became available later in their production, so it is not unreasonable or even close to far-fetched to request a reflector sight that the later models also stated seeing as they became available to them (much like the 37mm cannons).
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I will qualify my posts. If HTC allows you to put whatever gunsight you wish on an airplane, including ones that never, ever existed, then why should certain planes only have the option of their standard sight? Regardless of whether the IL-2 or A-20 had steel sights. No statement of realism can be used to contradict this for aforemetioned reasons. It is another example of "realism" for the sake of "realism" at the expense of "realism".
Not attacking you Krusty, just saying that any argument towards the OP observation is moot, unless programming comes up and says.... the plane is modeled that way and it would be too difficult to change it, it will stay the way it is...for example. Although when that day comes, I might by those ocean front lots in arizona I always wanted.
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The P40B originaly used an external "Ring and Post" gunsight. Those in Burma and China flown by the AVG used them. The P40B was quickly upgraded to N2 and N3 reflector gunsights when available by the USAAF and RAF in all theaters. In the case of how Aces High deals with the P40B and its gunsight, a parallel argument is appropriate for putting PBP-1 or PAK-1 gunsights into the IL-2M(23mm VYa) and IL-2 Type 3M(NS-37) in Aces High. A reflector gunsight is a superior aiming instrament for guns, bombs and rockets than a fixed ring or wind screen marker. As reflector gunsights became readily available the russians upgraded everything they could.
By Mid June of 1942, most remaining AVG Tomahawks were fitted with reflector sights. All P-40Es were delivered with them. However, the Chinese government did procure rebuilt British Mk II gunsights earlier (November of 1941). Unfortunately, these were delivered in March of '42 without bulbs and spare parts, making them useless.
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Here's a photo of the Curtiss Test Pilots with a P-40B, circa early 1941 at the Buffalo factory. Note that the legendary Herb Fisher is the guy squatting on the wing. P-40Bs were delivered without government purchased equipment... No guns, no sights and only a basic radio installation to safely fly the aircraft.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/P-40B-CurtissTestPilots.jpg)
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Thanks Widewing, I thought the Chinese gov was doing the whole thing on the cheap with few spare parts far and in between until 43.
Player made maps, skins and gunsights allows a segment of the player base to feel closer to the game than just the combat. A custom "graticule" for your gunsight device gives a feed back for some players that they have just a bit more control over the outcome of their in game happiness. It's a harmless MOD like building your own Altair 8800 or IMSAI 8080 so you can flip switches and watch led's light up. No body pays a fee to keep playing a game to loose indefinantly.
A PAK1 or PBP1 gunsight in the IL2 will not change the fact that the Wirbel will win more often than the IL2 will because of needing to be 600 or closer to damage or destroy it. The NS-37 trials showed the AP ammo to have its best penetration starting at about 400 unless you were shooting "lightly" armored vehicals. Most rockets are inaccurate unless launched closer to 400. At 1500 the IL2 becomes Wirbel fodder. It's not like HiTech has PTAB in mind for the IL2 and a new Yak9B anytime soon. Disclaimer for YakB - Poor handling with a full bomb and fuel load and lack of special aiming equipment limited combat usefulness.
Could you imagine the complaints. A single engined Yak9B with 128 PTAB flies level over a Wirbel nest. "Hey!! MoMan looks like we cutting him to peices. Look at all the littel parts fal".......boom crunch boom splat boom thump boom owwwieee boom boom........Next day in the AH forums. Perk the PTAB!!!!!!. Anyone can be a tank killer----it's UNFAIR TO THE GV GAME...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa .
Dont think a gunsight compairs to that scenario......Bet the same players would want the JU87D-5 perked to.
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Here's a photo of the Curtiss Test Pilots with a P-40B, circa early 1941 at the Buffalo factory. Note that the legendary Herb Fisher is the guy squatting on the wing. P-40Bs were delivered without government purchased equipment... No guns, no sights and only a basic radio installation to safely fly the aircraft.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/P-40B-CurtissTestPilots.jpg)
Fantastic photo Widewing, amazing quality and clearity, thanks for sharing. I have always been most jealous of your collection and ease of access to such vast amounts of WWII aviation information.
I also certainly can't wait to checkout the remodeled P-40E to be released soon.