Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Tupac on May 29, 2011, 04:23:51 PM
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see title
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why?
semp
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why?
semp
It has the lowest k/d of all the perked fighters? Below 1-1 k/d
I dont know exactly what it is, however I bet Lusche has some charts for it.
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It has the lowest k/d of all the perked fighters? Below 1-1 k/d
I dont know exactly what it is, however I bet Lusche has some charts for it.
maybe unperk it because you lost 4 perks when you were shot down?
-1 its the fastest spit in the game and we dont need people flying it constantly...
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People fly the XVI because the XIV is perked. I think I like it the way it is. -1
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It has the lowest k/d of all the perked fighters? Below 1-1 k/d
I dont know exactly what it is, however I bet Lusche has some charts for it.
to be honest with you, i say it perk it more, just to stop people from flying it. that thing must suck because every time i see one they run faster than a 262 diving on a goon. and this is from a spitdweeb master point of view.
semp
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maybe unperk it because you lost 4 perks when you were shot down?
-1 its the fastest spit in the game and we dont need people flying it constantly...
No. Have you ever flown it? It turns like a dog and its only huge advantage is acceleration and climb, in both categories it is outclassed by the K4 which is eny 25.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=1&pw=2>ype=2)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=1&pw=2>ype=0)
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No. Have you ever flown it? It turns like a dog and its only huge advantage is acceleration and climb, in both categories it is outclassed by the K4 which is eny 25.
K4 Eny 20, G14 is 25, but I agree the Spit14 should not be perked. Eny 10 it.
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K4 Eny 20, G14 is 25, but I agree the Spit14 should not be perked. Eny 10 it.
oops, I got the ENYs confused.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=1&pw=2>ype=2)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=1&pw=2>ype=0)
cool charts, but what can they prove or disprove? above 30k the spit will be so out of fuel that it is just laughable to think it might go to 40k and if you carry extra tanks then it wont do the climb indicated at the bottom. and using a constant wep line for any plane is misleading, since the wep will run out way before the plane gets to 20k.
so the charts just indicate a very favorable climb, which in terms of ah combat it doesnt mean much, unless of course you are chasing a con all the way up to 40k then again who does that.
semp
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so the charts just indicate a very favorable climb, which in terms of ah combat it doesnt mean much, unless of course you are chasing a con all the way up to 40k then again who does that.
Climb rate is one of the if not the most important metric in the LW.
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No. Have you ever flown it? It turns like a dog and its only huge advantage is acceleration and climb, in both categories it is outclassed by the K4 which is eny 25.
I GOT out climbed by a f4f going 380mph on the deck with a spit14
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I GOT out climbed by a f4f going 380mph on the deck with a spit14
He must've zoomed. Wildcats should have good zoom.
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I think part of the problem is folks fly the Griffon XIV like a Merlin powered Spit. Torque is the other direction and it's heavier. It was a great climbing plane and would be used more effectively as a BnZ bird then a turn fighter like it's Merlin powered brothers.
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Give it 5eny no perks...the plane is great when flown right.
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People fly the XVI because the XIV is perked. I think I like it the way it is. -1
People do not fly the Spitfire XVI because the Spitfire XIV is perked. If the XIV was unperked, the majority would still gravitate towards the XVI. Why? Because the XVI is far easier to fly than the XIV.
IMO, the XIV should be unperked because I believe unperked it will not unbalance the game play if it was.
ack-ack
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I think part of the problem is folks fly the Griffon XIV like a Merlin powered Spit. Torque is the other direction and it's heavier. It was a great climbing plane and would be used more effectively as a BnZ bird then a turn fighter like it's Merlin powered brothers.
The Mk XIV is also hurt more than most aircraft by AH's 2x fuel consumption.
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It wouldn't matter if they unperked it... it doesn't have huge guns and it takes more finesse to fly, which means it won't see much use either way.
Although, I have to say it is better since they change the fuel/load on the Spit14, it is more viable but far from perk worthy when compared to other late war monsters.
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Those who want it to stay perked ought to advocate having its fuel changed from 100 octane to 150 octane and its max boost from +18lbs to +21lbs to make it actually worth being perked.
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All unperking the Spit XIV will get us is a new entrant for the 'pick and run' club championship (currently held by the P-51D). I think the mild perk is warranted.
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All unperking the Spit XIV will get us is a new entrant for the 'pick and run' club championship (currently held by the P-51D). I think the mild perk is warranted.
P51 is faster below 12k
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All unperking the Spit XIV will get us is a new entrant for the 'pick and run' club championship (currently held by the P-51D). I think the mild perk is warranted.
Pick run champ in my opinion is the 190d. [\hijack]
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Pick run champ in my opinion is the 190d. [\hijack]
really? mine goes to the C205. [/hijack]
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All unperking the Spit XIV will get us is a new entrant for the 'pick and run' club championship (currently held by the P-51D). I think the mild perk is warranted.
It's outclassed in that category by the 51D, the 190D, the La7, even the Typhoon has some better traits for that in some respects...
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The only time the Spit14 needs to really be respected is above 20k, otherwise it is hardly more than the other Spits down low.
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I agree the 14 should not be perked. Plenty of unperked rides with the same of better gun package. The thing is fast but that really only comes into play up high.
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Pick run champ in my opinion is the 190d.
I agree. It was once the P51D, but the 190D is the current "pick and extend" preferred flavor. For the record, I personally believe that this behavior is more detrimental to the game then HOs. Unfortunately, the scoring system seems to reward folks who only attack with advantage and extend (run) the second that that advantage is in doubt.
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The Mk XIV is also hurt more than most aircraft by AH's 2x fuel consumption.
Hadn't thought about that, but yeah it sure would be. With the arrival of the XII the 30 gallon slipper tank was mandatory just to start making the range similar to the Merlin versions. The XIV suffered the same problem with range although it did have the leading edge tanks of the VIII.
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Unfortunately, the scoring system seems to reward folks who only attack with advantage and extend (run) the second that that advantage is in doubt.
Emphasis on seems. ;)
Often K/D is equated with score and rank, but it's mostly overrated. All categories 5 sub-categories are weighted the same. The more cautious a player is flying, the more & longer he extends, the worse his K/H will be.
I do put an emphasis on surviving, but that prevents me from ever getting the top fighter rank. If I would give up some K/D for a gain in K/H, by flying more aggressive and fighting more often from a less advantageous position I could improve in terms of rank... :joystick:
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I agree. It was once the P51D, but the 190D is the current "pick and extend" preferred flavor. For the record, I personally believe that this behavior is more detrimental to the game then HOs. Unfortunately, the scoring system seems to reward folks who only attack with advantage and extend (run) the second that that advantage is in doubt.
Thats why i hold a break.
Btw. to understand the spit14s perk price, compare it to its closest opponent, the 109 K-4. What are the major differences, simmilarities?
Their speed is real close, but the 109K is faster with and without wep up to 25K, where the spitfire overtakes. The 109 has much longer wep.
They climb about the same up to 23K, where the spit overtakes. Again, the K-4 has way longer wep, whats more inportant than those little differences.
The spitfire wins in the turn rate, but the 109 wins in the turn radius and handling. In a rolling scissors situation i would be in the K-4 (im curious about MachFly's opinion).
Both planes have serious problems with diving. The K-4 cant exceed 430mph without violent compression while the spits ailerons are about to useless above 400mph and its pretty much likely to lose its wings at about 8G.
The hispanos are besically better weapons, even tho i would choose the tater.
The spitfire is more fragile while the 109 loses its radiator all the time. A fuel tank hit in the 109 means the end of the sortie in one minute. Also the 109 has real poor visibility.
Both are awsome rides, have their ups and downs. Im happy with the K-4s eny, best perk farmer in game, but i have no idea why is the spit14 perked. Its a monster in the events, but nothing special in the MAs compared to the non-perked la-7 or the 109K.
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been there done that, +1 unperk it
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I really hope HiTech sees this thread
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Unperk it out of sympathy, poor thing has a big nose.
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Unperk it out of sympathy, poor thing has a big nose.
Must be a liar
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Perfect compromise, cut the price in half. Keep it perked or all we'll see is spit 14's everywhere like CHogs used to be before the perk. Also it gives new guys something to spend their very hard earned perks on.
I know I was excited the first time I had enough points to fly one :joystick:
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+1 unperk it
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Perfect compromise, cut the price in half. Keep it perked or all we'll see is spit 14's everywhere like CHogs used to be before the perk.
There is absolutely no reason something like this will happen. We even do not have the 16 everywhere, and the 16 is the way better fighter for the standard combat situation.
I think the 14 has just been forgotten when the Ta-152H was unperked...
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The SpitXIV is an awesome performer spoiled by bizarre handling anomalies. One could unperk the 14, OR, one could explore why it seems so unstable, instability in flight not being something I remember it being known for...
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The SpitXIV is an awesome performer spoiled by bizarre handling anomalies. One could unperk the 14, OR, one could explore why it seems so unstable, instability in flight not being something I remember it being known for...
Just curious as to what the bizarre handling anomalies are that you refer to?
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Just curious as to what the bizarre handling anomalies are that you refer to?
Probably the wobbly nose and tendency to enter an flat spin from which it is very hard to recover.
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Probably the wobbly nose and tendency to enter an flat spin from which it is very hard to recover.
Hmmm. I think folks just don't realize that it's a different beast then a Merlin Spit. Anything you read by folks who flew them during WW2 talks about how it was a tough handling Spit vs the Merlin versions. The Torque was wicked, it was about a ton heavier then the Spitfire VIII, which was exactly the same airframe outside of the larger tail and Griffon engine. It was a 'flying engine'. The Griffon birds required constant trimming too. The engine really was too big for the airframe in many ways.
Spin characteristics from the VIII Pilot's notes.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/VIIISpin.jpg)
Now those from the XIV pilot's notes. Note the highlighted portion. I have the XII pilot's notes too and it has the same as the VIII. I have Spit 21 pilot's notes and they are about identical to the XIV for handling. Those late Griffon birds were monsters.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/XIVSpin.jpg)
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Probably the wobbly nose and tendency to enter an flat spin from which it is very hard to recover.
Yes! I went from 6k to 1k very fast and I magically recovered before auger
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ok i was messing around with the spit14 offline today and it was easily put into a tailspin/tail-dive. it also recovers very easy if you know what to do. but if its above 20k, you better show it some respect or else it'll blow you into next week.
still, it was probably perked for a reason. id still -1 the idea until i know why.
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Yes! I went from 6k to 1k very fast and I magically recovered before auger
Did you notice the pilot's notes say allow 10K for spin recovery?. Sounds like you got out of it ahead of schedule :)
F/L Don Healey, 17 Squadron RAF on flying the XIV
"One aspect you always had to bear in mind with the XIV that no flying surface trimming could allow for it's considerable weight. It tipped the scales at 8475 lbs when fueled and armed, which made it over 2000 pounds heavier then the VIII (Healey and 17 squadron had flown 17s in combat prior to transitioning to XIVs). Therefore extra height had to be allowed for when rolling and looping as it tended to 'wash out' when flown this way."
"We were told to open the throttle very slowly at the start of our take off, with full opposite rudder applied to offset the five bladed prop, which was driven by the Griffon in the opposite direction to the Merlin. This took some getting used to!. Even with full aileron, elevator and rudder, this brute of a fighter still took off slightly sideways."''F/L Ron Lubbock, who flew FRXIVs with 26 squadron post war.
"The FRXIV was essentially a flying engine, and this was never more obvious then when one performed aerobatics...The first loop I ever attempted in the aircraft was the most shuddering affair I can ever remember as you had to 'motor' the machine around on the Griffon engine throughout the manoevre. It really was a most unpleasant experience. It was plainly obvious to me back in 1945 why so many inexperienced pilots found flying Griffon Spitfires so daunting to fly, having come from OTU equipped with Merlin powered Vs and IXs."
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None of that explains the nose wobble though. Despite its larger vertical stabilizer it is much less directionally stable than the Mk VIII. It makes shooting quite a chore.
It is interesting that the Bf109K-4, a similarly over engined early war airframe, does not develop any additional vices when compared to earlier Bf109s.
I will say that it can be a beast though. I recall being bounced by a much higher P-51B at about 7k once and taking the fight vertical I completely dominated the poor P-51.
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I guess I'm going to have to fly it more. The few times I've flown it, I don't recall the nose wobble you talk about. I sure did notice torque however :)
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The problem I have always had with the Spit XIV is a multi-front issue. It is the short legs coupled with the performance that is high end, but not outstanding beyond other unperked late war fighters, tied to the "I'm a perk plane, kill me!" icon, exacerbated by the "I'm a very rare plane, kill me to get a notch in your belt!" issue.
All these things come together to make what should be a fun flight a much more stressful flight for me.
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I agree that it's time for it to not be perked.
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It seems like the general consensus is to unperk it
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I would like a clear definition of why it was perked in the first place. I don't have a problem with it not being perked, matter of fact I don't think it should be perked. I would like to know why it was perked initially though.
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I would like a clear definition of why it was perked in the first place. I don't have a problem with it not being perked, matter of fact I don't think it should be perked. I would like to know why it was perked initially though.
Probably because in the real ETO, it trumped just about every other prop fighter to date in most respects.
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It seems like the general consensus is to unperk it
(http://whatitslikeontheinside.com/uploaded_images/Make-It-So-776665.jpg)
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I say it has a well deserved per value. Here is why: (not in order)
-Guns: 2x20mms & 2x50cals are a great configuration of guns. A great rate of fire, great stopping power, and relatively light weight. In one burst you can destroy airplanes such as P-47s & 190.
-Acceleration: It's one of the fastest accelerating planes in AH. 150mph to 200mph in 7.2 seconds, 200mph to 250mph in 10.8 seconds (faster than 109K). The Spitfire might not be very good at low speed dogfighting but it can easy out accelerate anything putting itself back into it's envelope & giving itself a large advantage.
-Speed: Above 10K it can out-run a pony.
-Climb: Given proper power & fuel it can climb at 5000ft/min (capable of out-climbing a K4)
-Maintaining energy: As all other Spitfires it is very easy to keep a significant amount of energy in turns. Your enemy will require a greater amount of power to keep up with you, given that the Spit14 has one of the most powerful engines not to many planes will be able to keep up.
-Damage: Surtitle it is not a P-47 but contrary to popular believe it is not a zero, the Spitfire can take a good amount of damage before it goes down. See this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,312667.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,312667.0.html)
Spit14 is a little heavy for what it's wings were originally designed for therefore it is not one of the best turners, but if the vertical is used the Spit14 can fight & win most turn fights. Also you don't want to keep it bellow ~200mph & bellow ~5K MSL as it's performance seriously deteriorates at those altitudes.
Certainly most noobs will take it, use it like a Spit16, get shot down and claim that it's worse than a P-40B. But if the pilot knows anything technical about the Spitfire mk XIV he will be practically unstoppable. So it defiantly deserves to be perked because of it's performance but because it's not a very easy airplane to fly a low perk value of 14 is just right in my opinion.
(im curious about MachFly's opinion).
I been really busy lately, have not had time to check the forums not to mention play AH.
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I say it has a well deserved per value. Here is why: (not in order)
-Guns: 2x20mms & 2x50cals are a great configuration of guns. A great rate of fire, great stopping power, and relatively light weight. In one burst you can destroy airplanes such as P-47s & 190.
-Acceleration: It's one of the fastest accelerating planes in AH. 150mph to 200mph in 7.2 seconds, 200mph to 250mph in 10.8 seconds (faster than 109K). The Spitfire might not be very good at low speed dogfighting but it can easy out accelerate anything putting itself back into it's envelope & giving itself a large advantage.
-Speed: Above 10K it can out-run a pony.
-Climb: Given proper power & fuel it can climb at 5000ft/min (capable of out-climbing a K4)
-Maintaining energy: As all other Spitfires it is very easy to keep a significant amount of energy in turns. Your enemy will require a greater amount of power to keep up with you, given that the Spit14 has one of the most powerful engines not to many planes will be able to keep up.
-Damage: Surtitle it is not a P-47 but contrary to popular believe it is not a zero, the Spitfire can take a good amount of damage before it goes down. See this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,312667.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,312667.0.html)
Spit14 is a little heavy for what it's wings were originally designed for therefore it is not one of the best turners, but if the vertical is used the Spit14 can fight & win most turn fights. Also you don't want to keep it bellow ~200mph & bellow ~5K MSL as it's performance seriously deteriorates at those altitudes.
Certainly most noobs will take it, use it like a Spit16, get shot down and claim that it's worse than a P-40B. But if the pilot knows anything technical about the Spitfire mk XIV he will be practically unstoppable. So it defiantly deserves to be perked because of it's performance but because it's not a very easy airplane to fly a low perk value of 14 is just right in my opinion.
I been really busy lately, have not had time to check the forums not to mention play AH.
You're completely backwards about the gun's weights, both the Hispano and Browning .50 are very heavy compared to other guns in their class. Their RoF are mediocre as well.
That said, you meet a Bf109K-4 and an A6M/Ki-84/N1K2/Merlin Spit/Hurricane and you are pretty much up the creek without a paddle unless you are much better than the opposition.
Why do you think the Spit XIV, alone among perk fighters, has a lower K/D ratio than free fighters and is almost never used? (Hint: it isn't worth the price)
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Unperk it. It is not the end of the world. If it becomes insanely unbalanced to gameplay, perk it again. Ta-da.
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You're completely backwards about the gun's weights, both the Hispano and Browning .50 are very heavy compared to other guns in their class. Their RoF are mediocre as well.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....you SURE about the ROF of the brownings and Hispanos?
Without doubt they are the most effective 20mm cannons and HMGs in the game, you have to give him that at least.
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I would like a clear definition of why it was perked in the first place.
I ran across a quote once on these forums but I can't find it again. It was basically explaining that the Spit14 was perked because it climbed like a monster.
Keep in mind when it was introduced. No ki-48. No spit16/spit8. Its closest contender was the K-4 in climb rate, but given the K-4s 30mm gun and bad ballistics that ride will never be perkworthy (my opinion, not recounting what I read).
At the time this was the king god of climbers and E-monsters. It was the alt monkey speed demon pick machine to dream about.
That IMO is why it was perked. With the arena changes those years ago, with the split, with the addition of so many new craft, I find myself grudgingly agreeing that the perk isn't as necessary as it once was. With the increasing planeset, you have more counters. The La7 used to be the ultimate base defender and runner. Now you can run in the spit16, defend in the spit8, base CAP in Ki-84s, P-47Ms, etc... There are more rides that can fill in that same mission where once your only choice was the Spit16 or the K4.
The arena atmosphere has also changed. No longer do you see LA7s dominating the arena. You look on the forums and you'll see endless cries of "Perk the La!!" and if you weren't there you might ponder "Why? That makes no sense" (read: If you saw it you'd understand). Now those no longer apply. Heck, you don't even see as many spit16s anymore. It's the predominant spit you run across, yes, but it's no longer making up 60% of every horde you see like it once was. Things have changed. So has the environment the Spit14 was perked in. Times change.
I personally still think it's worth a minor perk (5 points? 2 points?) because I've pulled off some hairy sorties in that plane when almost no other plane in the game would have got me through.
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I remember when they remodeled the LA, did they change the flight model?
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Not officially, but I think it took a hit in manuverability for sure. It "feels" different, same as the N1K2 after it was updated.
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So what I'm seein is we have one guy who can really fly this thing and not many others, if anyone else flies it they'll most likely be shot down and not fly it much more.
and I don't think we'll have a huge influx of 2 weekers screemin in with 14s anytime soon.
unperk it.
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Once i would like to duel with you, Mach. Me in a K-4, you in the Spit14. Would be real interesting to see the outcome.
The only clear advantage i see is the performance at very high altitudes. But who the heck goes that high i the MAs??
Anyway idk... i seen very few good dogfights last month, mostly one pass, extend then come back with help, or endless BnZ fests, runaways when someone wasnt holding all the cards. Sadly, this spit excels in it. The perk price means, noone wanna risk his ten perks, noone enters a turnfight, rather go home without any action. Removing the perk price can cause two real different things:
- People wouldnt worry about risking their perks anymore and would be afraid of entering into some "quality interaction" instead of the timid and boring way. Personally, i would LUV to see this. OR
- There would be tons of them, and even more pick n run would happen. This would be horrible.
I still THINK it worths a try to remove its perk price for a couple weeks and at least see what happens.
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- There would be tons of them, and even more pick n run would happen. This would be horrible.
Extremely unlikely, as they are still better birds around for this kind of combat for the average player.
And unless a plane offers really something completely new, players tend to pick the plane for the job, not the other way around.
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Once i would like to duel with you, Mach. Me in a K-4, you in the Spit14. Would be real interesting to see the outcome.
I've been busy the past few weeks and have not had time for AH, but I'm expecting my next week to clear up. I'll send you a PM over the weekend and we'll plan for the best time.
This should be interesting.
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So what I'm seein is we have one guy who can really fly this thing and not many others, if anyone else flies it they'll most likely be shot down and not fly it much more.
and I don't think we'll have a huge influx of 2 weekers screemin in with 14s anytime soon.
:lol
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You're completely backwards about the gun's weights, both the Hispano and Browning .50 are very heavy compared to other guns in their class. Their RoF are mediocre as well.
That said, you meet a Bf109K-4 and an A6M/Ki-84/N1K2/Merlin Spit/Hurricane and you are pretty much up the creek without a paddle unless you are much better than the opposition.
Why do you think the Spit XIV, alone among perk fighters, has a lower K/D ratio than free fighters and is almost never used? (Hint: it isn't worth the price)
Your partially right about the guns weight. I accidentally compared it to the MK 108 instead of the MG 151, but the MG 151 (109's 20mm canon) weight almost exactly the same as the Hispano.
Spit14's K/D is low because every takes it expecting it to be a super Spt16 and it turns out to be a totally different airplane, than they get killed. No one really takes time to learn to fly it.
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I've been busy the past few weeks and have not had time for AH, but I'm expecting my next week to clear up. I'll send you a PM over the weekend and we'll plan for the best time.
Maybe a couple months later, sir. Cancelled my subscribtion, need a break to forget this delusion before i completely burn out.
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Maybe a couple months later, sir. Cancelled my subscribtion, need a break to forget this delusion before i completely burn out.
I know what you mean. I probably should have canceled mine for a good portion of this year (and the 2nd half of the last), but my perks were the only thing not letting me do that.
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If flown the Spit14 a bit this tour, it's fun between 5-12k using a mixture of BnZ and TnB. But it's terrible for real close knife fights.
It's not very forgiving in stalls, especially if there is fuel in the wing tanks.
With it's cost, and difficulties knife fighting, I much prefer the other Spits (excluding the Mark 1 and 16)
You really don't get value for perkies. Think it's cost me roughly 30 perks for 9 victories with my seat of the pants style flying.
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The power sure does seem to fall of rather abruptly at a lower altitude than I expected.
Even with a drop tank, you only have enough fuel to get to it's intended altitude before having to rtb....because you are out of fuel.
When reading action reports, I routinely see references to 25 to 30k fights yet very few planes in this sim can even reach those altitudes.
Once they get there, they are in no condition to fight.
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When reading action reports, I routinely see references to 25 to 30k fights yet very few planes in this sim can even reach those altitudes.
Once they get there, they are in no condition to fight.
Can you name a few fighters that can not reach 25k-30k in AH?
Even with a drop tank, you only have enough fuel to get to it's intended altitude before having to rtb....because you are out of fuel.
The Spit 14 takes under 9 minutes to get to 25K and has ~25 minutes fuel left. About 11 minutes to 30k with 22 minutes of fuel left. That's about what a LA 7 has in total at sea level.
The 14 is indeed is limited in it's endurance compared to other high altitude fighters in AH, but that's not totally making unsuited for high altitude combat, only for escort duty or long tail chases of bombers on their way home.
The general lack or high altitude combat in AH is mostly a result from having no need to fight up there in the first place, with almost all valuable targets and objectives being of tactical nature and rarely more than one sector into enemy airspace.
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I don't go in the DA all that often, and even less often to furball lake, but when I have been there I don't recall seeing many Spit 14s compared to the number of Tempests and C-hogs. Someone please correct me if I have the wrong impression, but I can't see it dominating the MA if unperked the way those two would. Most people would have no more need or desire to fly it than they do the 152. I say unperk it.
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I don't go in the DA all that often, and even less often to furball lake, but when I have been there I don't recall seeing many Spit 14s compared to the number of Tempests and C-hogs. Someone please correct me if I have the wrong impression, but I can't see it dominating the MA if unperked the way those two would.
That's why the Tempest has a higher per value. And the only reason the C-Hod is perked is because it has 4x20mms.
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gimme a spit 14 and the enemy a spit 16 above 10k and i will kill you everytime. same said for the 109s and the 51s.
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gimme a spit 14 and the enemy a spit 16 above 10k and i will kill you everytime. same said for the 109s and the 51s.
Absolutely.
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gimme a spit 14 and the enemy a spit 16 above 10k and i will kill you everytime. same said for the 109s and the 51s.
That's great, but the majority of fighting in AH probably happens below 5,000ft.
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That's great, but the majority of fighting in AH probably happens below 5,000ft.
I think that depends on the map. It is bellow 5K on the smaller maps but it's around 10K on the large once.
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heck Brew'll get to 25k in about 12 mins roughly. I like the 14 myself just because of the power from that big Griffon, It makes any close engagements very fun.
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I think that depends on the map. It is bellow 5K on the smaller maps but it's around 10K on the large once.
Still below the best fighting alts for the Spit XIV or the IX for that matter, but playing into the best alts for the LFXVI or LFVIII. Engines on those Spits maximized for low to medium alts. XIV and IX for medium to high alts, as in 20K and above.
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nah perk the 16...and even then it should be a no..spit 5's ans 1's own both
the dude
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That's great, but the majority of fighting in AH probably happens below 5,000ft.
so? the tempest is also out of its league down there and slower than many Late War A/C on the deck... yet it has 50 perks. so i'd like to know why perk the Tempest at 50 if it is on par with the Spit14 in the low alts? (especially when the Spit14 will out turn the Tempest on the deck and out fly it?). A low Tempest is a DEAD tempest.
you also remember that the SpitXIV out runs the tempest between 10K and 15K and blows it away over 21K? that and compared to the Tempest the Spit14's climb rate is ballistic. (you will get to 20K/25K with the slipper tank. take 100% fuel and throttle back like in an La and you'll glide basically to your area of operations and get there with 80% of your internal left. So ignore the fuel problems...)
The Spit14 also out runs ALL of its spitfire counterparts at ALL alts and can even keep with the P51s in speed at ALL alts.
You guys need to realize that it's not just about the speed, or the climb, or the turn. but everything about the plane at deserves the perk. (this last statement does not concern everyone in this thread)
Also Karnak, almost everything below 5K is gonna be in danger of getting shot down because i dont know about you but most of my enemies come in at 10K or above
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....Also Karnak, almost everything below 5K is gonna be in danger of getting shot down because i dont know about you but most of my enemies come in at 10K or above
haha ya they come in 10K +...with 10 + friends :rolleyes:
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so? the tempest is also out of its league down there and slower than many Late War A/C on the deck..
:rofl
Now really... is that just bait or do really know nothing about the Tempest in Aces High? :huh
so i'd like to know why perk the Tempest at 50 if it is on par with the Spit14 in the low alts? (especially when the Spit14 will out turn the Tempest on the deck and out fly it?). A low Tempest is a DEAD tempest.
Ok.. I'm beginning to think you really believe that. :uhoh
Now, can you tell me the names of the many late War A/C that are faster than the Tempest on deck? Seems I have always chosen the wrong plane when looking for the ultimate low alt high speed demon ...
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Spit 14 at 20 or 25k and throttling back is one thing but getting anywhere near it's 42,000 foot ceiling with more than a minute's worth of fuel remaining is nearly impossible.
I guess I could climb that high, throttle back to 0% and the e6b would show 5 minutes.
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Tempest is the fastest prop in the game at sea level. Only the jets are faster. A few others come close (F4u4, la7, 190d)... but barely. They might reach a tempest in a dive. And they don't have 4x hispanos.
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Spit 14 at 20 or 25k and throttling back is one thing but getting anywhere near it's 42,000 foot ceiling with more than a minute's worth of fuel remaining is nearly impossible.
I guess I could climb that high, throttle back to 0% and the e6b would show 5 minutes.
You have 26 minutes left left after reaching 40k, and ~24 after getting to 42k...
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But I guess this is one of the threads were simple facts do not matter at all: The Tempest out of it's water on the deck and can't compete with the Spit 14, many fighters can't reach 25k, spit 14 is out of fuel when climbing to it's top altitude... Let's simply claim something to prove a point... one opinion is worth a thousand facts :rolleyes:
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Wow....checked it today and I got 30 minutes remaining at 42k feet.
It's amazing how much of a difference climbing 10mph faster indicated than yesterday makes with this plane.
I'm still not too enthused by huge power dropoff at 19,500 feet though....Is that realistic?
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Wow....checked it today and I got 30 minutes remaining at 42k feet.
It's amazing how much of a difference climbing 10mph faster indicated than yesterday makes with this plane.
I'm still not too enthused by huge power dropoff at 19,500 feet though....Is that realistic?
Almost all craft that have 2 supercharger gears have this. In fact, some have it MUCH worse. Some actually lose a lot of power. The Spit14 simply "pauses" and then resumes power after a few thousand feet. You can see where the power drops by looking at a speed curve. The reason the speed drops or recedes on some planes is because that is where the power drops off and is lower.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=64&p2=-1&pw=2>ype=0)
EDIT: Example of one that drops significantly: The tempest is barely faster at 12k than it is at sea level:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=38&p2=-1&pw=2>ype=0)
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You have 26 minutes left left after reaching 40k, and ~24 after getting to 42k...
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But I guess this is one of the threads were simple facts do not matter at all: The Tempest out of it's water on the deck and can't compete with the Spit 14, many fighters can't reach 25k, spit 14 is out of fuel when climbing to it's top altitude... Let's simply claim something to prove a point... one opinion is worth a thousand facts :rolleyes:
if i told you that i was stupid and assumed the incorrect statement about the tempest's speed... would you believe me? :bolt:
but still lusche, you cant really claim that it is still not out of its element on low alt fights. yes its turn with the torque is excellent, but its roll rate and opposite turn with torque is still inadequate vs other A/C.
Yes, its got its speed over everything else, but most enemy come to a fight with at least some sort of altitude so as to dive on the furball or to have advantage, this would completely nullify the tempests speed at low alt unless they decided to play smart and stay high. it would be forced to evade and lose its E and the advantage would always be to the enemy so as to say with any aircraft in AH.
so what? its got 4 hispanos. those hizookas cant do anything if you cant maneuver the plane onto the enemy's six. and i know for a fact that if i had a spit14 vs the tempest i would be able to out turn and out maneuver it in a fight and kill it. this of course is if the tempest doesnt run. The Spit14 deserves a slight perk. It will outclimb and out turn the tempest in a dogfight. the only thing the tempest has over the 14 is its E and speed. Granted i was mistaken about the tempest's top speed but since when do you see a temp low and slow also? you see people in spit14s entering furballs all the time thinking (oh, its perked and a spit! maybe its better!). It is better but not in the ways people imagine spitfires to be. It is an amazing aircraft that people do not know how to fly because they do not realize its potential. The perk should stay
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LOL... You are really stretching to downplay the tempest there, man.
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Now those from the XIV pilot's notes. Note the highlighted portion. I have the XII pilot's notes too and it has the same as the VIII. I have Spit 21 pilot's notes and they are about identical to the XIV for handling. Those late Griffon birds were monsters.
The fact that the spin is described as "erratic" isn't anything particularly Spitfire Mk.XIV -specific or an indication of the power loading/engine power vs. airframe size. For example Curtiss Hawk75A's spin was described as erratic and jerky with a risk of the spin developing into a flat spin. I doubt you'll call P-36 a monster. ;) :D
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so? the tempest is also out of its league down there and slower than many Late War A/C on the deck... yet it has 50 perks. so i'd like to know why perk the Tempest at 50 if it is on par with the Spit14 in the low alts? (especially when the Spit14 will out turn the Tempest on the deck and out fly it?). A low Tempest is a DEAD tempest.
you also remember that the SpitXIV out runs the tempest between 10K and 15K and blows it away over 21K? that and compared to the Tempest the Spit14's climb rate is ballistic. (you will get to 20K/25K with the slipper tank. take 100% fuel and throttle back like in an La and you'll glide basically to your area of operations and get there with 80% of your internal left. So ignore the fuel problems...)
The Spit14 also out runs ALL of its spitfire counterparts at ALL alts and can even keep with the P51s in speed at ALL alts.
You guys need to realize that it's not just about the speed, or the climb, or the turn. but everything about the plane at deserves the perk. (this last statement does not concern everyone in this thread)
Also Karnak, almost everything below 5K is gonna be in danger of getting shot down because i dont know about you but most of my enemies come in at 10K or above
Everything you said there is either wrong or also true of the Bf109K-4, unperked, ENY 20. In fact, the Bf109K-4 is faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV at AH combat altitudes.
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The fact that the spin is described as "erratic" isn't anything particularly Spitfire Mk.XIV -specific or an indication of the power loading/engine power vs. airframe size. For example Curtiss Hawk75A's spin was described as erratic and jerky with a risk of the spin developing into a flat spin. I doubt you'll call P-36 a monster. ;) :D
I'm talking about in terms of the Griffon 60 Spits vs the Merlin birds. That they added that bit to the pilot's notes to me indicates that the spins of the XIV vs the earlier birds was different.
In terms of being a "monster', that was more reference to it being a flying engine, again not with the balance and handling characteristics of the Merlin Spits. To fly it like a Merlin Spit is where I think most folks make their mistake.
I well remember a guy in an XIV trying to out turn me in a Spit Vb. No way it was going to happen. I imagine he was wondering why the XIV wasn't 'better' then the Spit Vb. Of course he could have walked away from me in any direction, including up, but thought since it was a Spit and a higher number it must turn better too :)
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Gupp, I'm thinking that if the Spitfire XIV had been ruinously unstable as a gun platform (which it is in AH), some pilot report somewhere would state that.
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Gupp, I'm thinking that if the Spitfire XIV had been ruinously unstable as a gun platform (which it is in AH), some pilot report somewhere would state that.
I have a feeling it has more to do with the guys flying it in AH then the bird itself. What I mean is it sounds like it took some getting used to and smoothness at the controls. Directional stability was a problem. Interesting quote from Jeffrey Quill, who was Supermarine's chief test pilot:
"The tactical report of the Spitfire XIV by the AFDU is interesting and it is clear that they fully appreciated its excellent performance and general 'fightability'. They also noted that the XIV with it's tremendous power, increased propeller solidity and increased all-up weight and moments of inertia, was a good deal more of a handful for the pilot and so required more attention to 'flying' then its predecessors. Direction stability was a problem and the aircraft was apt to shear about a lot with coarse use of the throttle. Large changes in speed required prompt attention to rudder trim. We at Supermarine tried all manner of expedients to improve the directional characteristics of the XIV. But the only real answer was to fit a much larger fin and rudder. Work was begun on this, but it was a major design change and the Spitfire 22 was the first production version to be fitted with it. So far as the XIV was concerned, I took the view that performance was paramount, and if the pilots had to work a bit harder and concentrate a bit more on their flying, that was better then sending them to war in an aircraft of inferior performance."
Seems to be what folks are describing in AH.
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I don't think so, Dan. The nose wobble is independent of throttle use. It is like it over corrects for tiny control inputs when you're trying to fine tune your aim for a shot.
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I haven't flown the 14 in a long time and haven't had much seat time in it at all, so I took it up tonight...she is a beast alright, at one point I pulled a bit to hard on the stick and instantly was spinning very fast,I was able to regain control, once someone figures out all the quirks of it, wow I can see why it is perked.
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I don't think so, Dan. The nose wobble is independent of throttle use. It is like it over corrects for tiny control inputs when you're trying to fine tune your aim for a shot.
I can't get the nose wobble. Could be using combat trim does the job. Oh well. I'm trying here Karnak! :)
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it's indeed unstable when you use the elevators. Small adjustments to line a shot up will result in a nose wobble on the Y axis, a bit like the one you can experience in the 190D9 and Ta152. A big change in the elevators at high speed can result in a massive spin stall like INK saw. A tight vertical scissor with some engine management can send you right to the floor in an unrecoverable flat spin. :headscratch:
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baited, hook line and sinker :ahand
I believe the spit 14 needs a slight perk but i just love arguing :lol
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I believe the spit 14 needs a slight perk but i just love arguing :lol
Why? It not only is massively outperformed by all other perk aircraft in actual outcomes, it is unique in being a per aircraft that is out performed by some free aircraft.
I find it funny that people will get a chorus of agreement that the F4U-1C should be unperked, but suggesting that for the Spitfire Mk XIV which sees much less use to much less effect gets a much more mixed response.
The only way that one can advocate the Spitfire Mk XIV remain perked and not be a hypocrite would be to advocate the perking of a significant number of other aircraft, such as the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, Ki-84, P-47M, P-47N, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, Typhoon Mk I, Ta152H-1 and possibly the Bf109G-14 and N1K2-J as well.
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Perk the G-6!!! :rofl
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Perk the G-6!!! :rofl
Now that one I'd never put on a perk list unless it was to shame somebody who was suggesting, oh, that the A6M5 or Ki-61 should be perked.
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Perk the top killing airframes by tour...and the jets.
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Perk the top killing airframes by tour...and the jets.
Unperk everything for a tour or two, then perk by k/d AND kills per hour.
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Unperk everything for a tour or two, then perk by k/d AND kills per hour.
lol...this ^^ except jets....
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All from this learned debat go to the DA lake. Up the XIV 25-50% fuel and stay below 10k. Fly minimum 5 sortie to get used to the ride while testing it to form an opinion of it's MA standard fight capabilities against the lake hoards. Then opine back here from that current perspective. We all know you can use the XIV to fly timid and survive as well as in the K4 by exercising thier strengths. In the MA that means landing 2 kills or less for the average player every other sortie or so. How many will be able to slug it out XVI, La7, NIK2, P38J and KI84 style below 8k against hoards? Otherwise they just become another irritating Poni picker dweeb with littel effect.
Unperking it will create another legendary obnoxious ride like the K4 in LWMA. It will become the counterpart 1337 ride to the K4 with the attendant snobbery and rivalries. It will never become a destabalising force because it takes as much real time effort to fly masterfully as the K4. Unperked a handfull of players will make it their ride dejour account for 98% of the preceived uberness whines surrounding it like the K4 currently engenders. The danger might be in the muppets making it a "tour de force" in their stable along side of the K4 and 262. A whole new generation of forum whines and/or an effective challenge to the K4 "der Übermensch". It might be good for spicing up the (spitty...lufty) rivalrys in the LWMA.
Honestly how many general players will have the same problems flying the XIV as they have with the K4 with the libraries of info on this forum most of them ignore? How many of you taking part in this discussion have any real problems defending against and defeating the few XIV you run across in the LWMA? The last one that chased my P51D ripped his wings off near the deck pulling up with me at over 450 because I wanted to see if I could get him to do that.
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Can anyone at HTC give us some input? is there any chance of this happening in the future?
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Can anyone at HTC give us some input? is there any chance of this happening in the future?
They likely will not reply and forget about this wish in a day. You have to bait them into a reply by mildly attacking them. Much to learn padawan.
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Bait them at the end of the month just before your next subscription payment is due. Grizz will school ya anyway he can to get a laugh from the inexperienced.
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They likely will not reply and forget about this wish in a day. You have to bait them into a reply by mildly attacking them. Much to learn padawan.
Isn't that spelled "Paduan"? And what do the Italians have to do with it?
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Isn't that spelled "Paduan"? And what do the Italians have to do with it?
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=padawan
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Why? It not only is massively outperformed by all other perk aircraft in actual outcomes, it is unique in being a per aircraft that is out performed by some free aircraft.
I find it funny that people will get a chorus of agreement that the F4U-1C should be unperked, but suggesting that for the Spitfire Mk XIV which sees much less use to much less effect gets a much more mixed response.
The only way that one can advocate the Spitfire Mk XIV remain perked and not be a hypocrite would be to advocate the perking of a significant number of other aircraft, such as the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, Ki-84, P-47M, P-47N, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, Typhoon Mk I, Ta152H-1 and possibly the Bf109G-14 and N1K2-J as well.
maybe its just me then. i seem to have much more luck in the Spit14 over most aircraft excluding my main rides
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maybe its just me then. i seem to have much more luck in the Spit14 over most aircraft excluding my main rides
Noone said the spit14 is a crappy aircraft. If used well, it can own everything, at every altitude. But see my point, the K-4 can do the same or more under 25K, the La-7 can do much more under 10K. Even the G-14 can get close to it up to 14-15K. There must be a reason, why the spit14 is the least used perk plane: some unperked rides can do what it can "at tipical MA altitudes", and who wanna up a fragile perk ride to chase bombers above 27K?
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LOL, who thinks the C-Hog should be unperked? Its not exactly the uber-plane, but it'll be almost the only Hog seen in the sky if its unperked.
Probably MORE planes should be perked, I go along with unperking the spit14 because its ludicrous to perk the poor twitching thing when SpitXVIs and La7s go unperked.
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The only way that one can advocate the Spitfire Mk XIV remain perked and not be a hypocrite would be to advocate the perking of a significant number of other aircraft, such as the Bf109K-4, Fw190D-9, Ki-84, P-47M, P-47N, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, Typhoon Mk I, Ta152H-1 and possibly the Bf109G-14 and N1K2-J as well.
Leave the unmaneuverable Typhoon, the bog-slow N1K, and the not very exceptional G-14 off this list, toss in the La7, and I'd say you have a capital idea there Karnak! :rock
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Yeah, I realized I forgot the La-7 about an hour after making the post. :P
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Bustr, the Sp14 turns twice as tight as a K4, and the guns are 3 times easier to hit with. I'd say perk the K4 if it turned like a spit 9 (as the sp14 does)
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Bustr, the Sp14 turns twice as tight as a K4,
So you have tested and measured it? Or where did you get this number from?
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So you have tested and measured it? Or where did you get this number from?
OK, so Americans might not always be perfectly precise in our words, such as saying "turns twice as tight" but really meaning "turns way better" and ect. :D Feel free to make a graph on the 2 planes though, I always enjoy those, quite informative!
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OK, so Americans might not always be perfectly precise in our words, such as saying "turns twice as tight" but really meaning "turns way better" and ect. :D
So are you saying that Americans are notoriously unscientific and stooopid? Just a question. I don't believe it to be so. Morons come in all shapes and sizes. Some people are notoriusly stoopid though, and it has nothing to do with the nationality.
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OK, so Americans might not always be perfectly precise in our words, such as saying "turns twice as tight" but really meaning "turns way better" and ect. :D Feel free to make a graph on the 2 planes though, I always enjoy those, quite informative!
Don't need to do this, already has been done:
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3865/clipboard01cz.jpg)
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit9&p2=spit14&p3=109g2&p4=109k4
See the relatively small difference between the K4 and Spit 14 @ full flaps, keeping in mind that the K4 can start to deploy flaps much earlier. Unfortunately degrees per second are not shown, where the Spit 14 and the K4 are actually almost identical at full flaps.
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Interesting. For me the g-2 vs spit9 "feels" much tougher than the k-4 vs spit14.
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Don't need to do this, already has been done:
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3865/clipboard01cz.jpg)
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit9&p2=spit14&p3=109g2&p4=109k4
See the relatively small difference between the K4 and Spit 14 @ full flaps, keeping in mind that the K4 can start to deploy flaps much earlier. Unfortunately degrees per second are not shown, where the Spit 14 and the K4 are actually almost identical at full flaps.
i have never ever tried to go flaps down in a spit 14 for a reason once i learned about this. once the flaps are out, the K4 can easily take you if he's good enough to. keep it a little above flap speeds and youll out turn the K4 any day. the 14's heavy bulk just is too much for going that slow
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Pretty please HT
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A turn RATE comparison would be most illuminating. If the Spit14 out-rates the K4 by the same margin it out-does it in no-flaps turn radius, winning position would be rather easy to achieve in the typical nose-to-tail chase. Granted, the 109K4 handled by an ace would still have some good deceleration/scissors cards to play, but the Hispanos o'doom could easily kill or cripple it on even the briefest short-range shot opportunity.
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A turn RATE comparison would be most illuminating..
According to Mosq's big turn comparison tests:
No Flaps
Spit 14 radius 628.6 / DPS 22.5
K-4 radius 703.3 / DPS 19.6
Full Flaps
Spit 14 radius 509.3 / DPS 19.4
K-4 radius 533.3 / DPS 19.5
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According to Mosq's big turn comparison tests:
No Flaps
Spit 14 radius 628.6 / DPS 22.5
K-4 radius 703.3 / DPS 19.6
Full Flaps
Spit 14 radius 509.3 / DPS 19.4
K-4 radius 533.3 / DPS 19.5
So the Spit14 should definitely keep flaps up and avoid nose-to-nose turning, and the K4 should definitely get flaps down at the first opportunity and probably do everything in its power to force a nose-to-nose fight. That makes it almost like a Merlin-powered Spit vrs a Corsair fight.