Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: F22RaptorDude on May 30, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
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Something we talked about in camp today. I figure that its a human condition to have power over others or some means of power. The reason Peace can never be achieved without force is because as long as there are two people on the planet, someone is going to want to be better than the other and will use force to assure it. There's no simple "well if people really tried" Its bull. As long as humans are on the planet there will never be True peace without force. Also I know how outrageous 2 people being the last on the planet is, look at the point, not the probability.
Not to have all brains here(cause I obviously don't) Do anyone of you think Peace is possible without force? If so explain. If not well that's alright too.
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Something we talked about in camp today. I figure that its a human condition to have power over others or some means of power. The reason Peace can never be achieved without force is because as long as there are two people on the planet, someone is going to want to be better than the other and will use force to assure it. There's no simple "well if people really tried" Its bull. As long as humans are on the planet there will never be True peace without force. Also I know how outrageous 2 people being the last on the planet is, look at the point, not the probability.
Not to have all brains here(cause I obviously don't) Do anyone of you think Peace is possible without force? If so explain. If not well that's alright too.
That is a question similar in depth and controversy to trying to figure out women.
I think true peace is obtainable without war. Even though cultures are vastly different, there are ways of bridging the gaps when trying to accommodating the differences without sacrificing identity. The closer the similarities the easier it is to achieve parity, the US and UK are prime examples. Once at war and harsh enemies, each country realized their similarities and shook hands for good.
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That is a question similar in depth and controversy to trying to figure out women.
I think true peace is obtainable without war. Even though cultures are vastly different, there are ways of bridging the gaps when trying to accommodating the differences without sacrificing identity. The closer the similarities the easier it is to achieve parity, the US and UK are prime examples. Once at war and harsh enemies, each country realized their similarities and shook hands for good.
Its changing the rest of the world that's the problem. Its a race and religion thing too, one race will think their religion is the only one there should be and rage war over that. Which is whats going on in the middle east. True peace is impossible because not everyone can put their differences aside and shake hands. And I hate to say that, I somewhat support the idea but its impossible as of now. Maybe if you give the world another 25-75 years we might be at a better off position to try it out. But like I said, its completely impossible for peace right now without raging a war, cause its all about dominance, nobody wants to feel weak.
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Why eliminate, when you can assimilate?
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Two people will always figure out a way to get along. Add a third though...
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You propably won't ever take crime & violence entirely away from humanity but for world peace... Jsut look back for a moment:
Once there was a time where nobody could have imagined the countless petty German (Holy Roman) Lords constantly fighting and warring against each other. But then came more civilization (well sort of), unification, more organization, and slowly the number and severity of feuds has been decreasing and the concept of justice and getting it in front of of a court was getting accepted more and more. War and warfare was relegated to ha higher level, a matter of Kingdoms, independent territories and proto-countries.
Then there was a time nobody could imagine the various German states living together in peace and not constantly warring against each other and/or "foreign" powers in ever shifting alliances, sometimes along religious lines, sometimes not. (Remember the 30 years war?) But times progressed, and so did civilization and organization went on, differences in the Christian Faiths were less and less a reason to go and slaughter each other. And finally even all those different territories united into a single state (just as others in Europe did before)
And then it's been largely only those European countries that continued to fight wars in ever changing alliance, and that seemed to be like a natural law to the contemporaries. Countries have interests, and sometimes they would go to war to further them. Napoleonic wars, Krimean War, World War I and II... Again, nobody could believe there once would be a time in which the major European powers would not clash every few years in any way. But then again there was progress, organization, the different countries formed a loose union, and instead of war they used negotiations, elections, and courts. Not working perfect, but still giving Western Europe the longest time of peace in it's entire history.
And now? Concepts of justice and organization on an even higher level started to emerge. International law. Peace missions. Basic human rights. International courts issuing arrest warrant against former and still acting dictators. Does it really work yet? Absolutely not. Flawed? Very much so. Universally accepted? Hell no.
But times will go on. The world is becoming smaller by new means of communication. The next step of civilization, unity, and peaceful ways of resolving conflicts are ahead or already being made.
World Peace? Not in my lifetime! Most probably not even in the time of my great-grandchildren. But looking back in history I see no reason why this path we are on see should not continue.
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Define 'Peace'
Even though cultures are vastly different, there are ways of bridging the gaps when trying to accommodating the differences without sacrificing identity.
I would have to strongly disagree here, the us versus them mentality among people is overwhelming, total homogeneity to a significant degree is the only way to get people off of each others' throats.
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when you see world "peace" beware for the end is emanate.
I see this happening within 75 to 100 years from now. maybe sooner.
the world's powers will surround Jerusalem...after that there will be world Peace....which is not peace at all, but subjugation of the worst sort.
my sign will be when all paper money is made illegal, this is when I step away from the world and disappear.
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when you see world "peace" beware for the end is emanate.
I see this happening within 75 to 100 years from now. maybe sooner.
the world's powers will surround Jerusalem...after that there will be world Peace....which is not peace at all, but subjugation of the worst sort.
my sign will be when all paper money is made illegal, this is when I step away from the world and disappear.
Interesting idea, but let's keep this discussion within the rules.
F22, I disagree utterly. I don't have time to write another treatise at the moment, but I'll get back to you.
-Penguin
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Interesting idea, but let's keep this discussion within the rules.
F22, I disagree utterly. I don't have time to write another treatise at the moment, but I'll get back to you.
-Penguin
this discussion leads you there....and I did best of my ability.
there will never be world peace while mankind rules himself.
we cannot rule our self, for power corrupts, and ultimate power corrupts ultimately.
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True peace is not going to happen as long as the Bishops are allowed to live.
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True peace is not going to happen as long as the Bishops are allowed to live.
Oh man, this is great stuff! :rofl
-Penguin
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The reason Peace can never be achieved without force is because as long as there are two people on the planet, someone is going to want to be better than the other and will use force to assure it.
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This is a fundamentally wrong assumption.
As you age.. and ESPECIALLY when you become a parent, you learn to choose your battles and at some point, the importance of winning every battle and always being right diminishes drastically.
You will learn to prioritize your causes. Those that do not impact you, or permantly challenge you, your family, or your livlihood will no longer be that important.
World peace can be achieved.. but the pharmacy bill is gonna be a killer.
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Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Peace = War
One cannot exist without the other.
Without war the concept of peace ceases to be valuable.
Without hate there is no value to love...
..or some may argue that the opposite of love is apathy.
Thus is it my theory that everything undesirable must exist to make the desirable so.
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All your base are belong to us!
:noid
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Something we talked about in camp today. I figure that its a human condition to have power over others or some means of power. The reason Peace can never be achieved without force is because as long as there are two people on the planet, someone is going to want to be better than the other and will use force to assure it. There's no simple "well if people really tried" Its bull. As long as humans are on the planet there will never be True peace without force. Also I know how outrageous 2 people being the last on the planet is, look at the point, not the probability.
Not to have all brains here(cause I obviously don't) Do anyone of you think Peace is possible without force? If so explain. If not well that's alright too.
i do not believe that peace is achievable without use of some sort of force. wether its a nice talk with some valid points or a hell of a s^#! stain war thats being waged. until all people on this god forsaken planet are dead, there will be no peace.
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There has never been and never can be world peace. We are all animals even though we are higher on the food chain.
Just as animals fight so do we. Most of the times for the same reason. Territorial., resorcses anger or women.
No matter how content we as a race are we have the urge for more or better things or to protect those we feel need protection
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i do not believe that peace is achievable without use of some sort of force. wether its a nice talk with some valid points or a hell of a s^#! stain war thats being waged. until all people on this god forsaken planet are dead, there will be no peace.
We also talked about how to make the world better, I suggested population control meaning I would kill off billions of people. Me not being a mas murderer I made up a silly story about a zombie apocalypse. I went into detail a ton but it was all a joke. But it made me think, with life expectancy going up, how many people can the world fit comfortably? :uhoh
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We also talked about how to make the world better, I suggested population control meaning I would kill off billions of people. Me not being a mas murderer I made up a silly story about a zombie apocalypse. I went into detail a ton but it was all a joke. But it made me think, with life expectancy going up, how many people can the world fit comfortably? :uhoh
didnt you already post this before somewhere? i swear ive seen it before...
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We also talked about how to make the world better, I suggested population control meaning I would kill off billions of people. Me not being a mas murderer I made up a silly story about a zombie apocalypse. I went into detail a ton but it was all a joke. But it made me think, with life expectancy going up, how many people can the world fit comfortably? :uhoh
If you're so in favor of killing billions, let's have you be the first to go. We thank you for your sacrifice. :salute
-Penguin
PS- Just kidding, I think that China has a pretty good model of how to slow population growth; only one child per household or else. I don't even plan on having kids at all, (in the traditional sense) I'll adopt a few.
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didnt you already post this before somewhere? i swear ive seen it before...
It was in the zombie thread a few weeks ago.
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It was in the zombie thread a few weeks ago.
ahh ok. i gotchya. it seemed so familiar when i first read it :lol
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I couldn't bring myself to kill a living thing, unless its a bug or rabid dog. But a zombie Apocalypse would be awesome :rofl
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Something we talked about in camp today. I figure that its a human condition to have power over others or some means of power. The reason Peace can never be achieved without force is because as long as there are two people on the planet, someone is going to want to be better than the other and will use force to assure it. There's no simple "well if people really tried" Its bull. As long as humans are on the planet there will never be True peace without force. Also I know how outrageous 2 people being the last on the planet is, look at the point, not the probability.
Not to have all brains here(cause I obviously don't) Do anyone of you think Peace is possible without force? If so explain. If not well that's alright too.
Define "peace".
A condition where nation states are no longer hurling conscripts or enthusiastic volunteers at one another is entirely possible. But shooting the occasional burglar will probably always be necessary.
If you want peace, it is quite simple. Quit allowing anyone to have the power to extort the funds to finance war and the power to force conscripts to fight wars. Accept that self-defense is a personal responsibility, as much as feeding and clothing yourself. Accept that defense of your property and your hide is a natural bodily function, like digestion, respiration, or excretion, that you cannot effectively delegate to others.
The primate instincts for violence that might be evident in a tribal skirmish or a gang dispute over turf have very little to do with war as modern people conceive of it. A man may beat, even kill someone in a bar brawl, but furious anger is insufficient to sustain war. The mutants among us may kill to rape or steal, but such persons are too rare and unreliable to be much good in military service. You don't get people to fight by appealing to their baser instincts. You do it by appealing to their sense of duty, patriotism, and honor. Desire for material prosperity and self-preservation serve the interest of peace. All of this can easily make one wonder if people are not entirely wrong in how they classify our "nobler" and "baser" instincts.
EDIT Re: Population growth
We live in an inconceivably vast universe, not a sealed jar. Trying to solve our problems by stopping population growth is as backwards as trying to stunt a child's growth because he or she is outgrowing their clothes.
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Double plus good :aok
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The only time humans will know peace is after waging a war of annihilation on another alien species, and surviving it. :rock
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"as long as there is man.. there shall be wars" - Albert Einstien.
It is a simple fact. Human beings are neither ignorant, nor bigoted (unless they go out of their way to be so). We are biologically programmed to dislike that which is different, and exterminate that which is seemingly inferior.
The majority will always step on the minority. Not to turn this into a political, racial or something of the like thread, but to use an example.
In ten years time, Australia could become an Asian nation, with European Anglo Saxons as the minority. This will cause a major shift in the order of things, I can guarantee it. China's influence is growing stronger by the minute here, and is certainly showing no sign of stopping. In as many as 20 years, Australias number one religion (going by current information) would be Islam or Hinduism.
This is a complete role reversal, the minority becomes the majority. And therefore the dominant power on Earth. America is slowly but surely giving way to China. And even more conflict will result. Inevitably, I can see WW3 is not far off with resources dwindling and political tensions high around the world.
These may seem to be unconnected and irrelevant points. But what I am stating here, is quite obvious. The world is undergoing a MAJOR upheaval, religious fervor, political unrest, resource depletion. And the very basic emotional response of Racism. Is rife around the world, and in such an unstable environment, the only stability would be enforced INstability, e.g. Warfare.
One day the human race will be united, and I agree with Badkarma. The only thing to unite such a violent intelligent species such as ourselves, would be a common enemy to exterminate together. Otherwise, difference will get in the way of all, and conflict will invariably follow.
Afterthought: An example of the common enemy would be the 2nd World War. The only time you could get every nation on Earth "broad statement I know" to work together, was to defeat an enemy that would destroy all nations on Earth save their own.
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True peace is not going to happen as long as the Bishops are allowed to live.
Who let you out of the home?
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my sign will be when all paper money is made illegal, this is when I step away from the world and disappear.
yup, if i'm around when that happens...sayonara, adios, good bye...i'm hiding in a dark corner of the planet.
I couldn't bring myself to kill a living thing, unless its a bug or rabid dog.
amazing, you seem so sure about that...i guarantee there are situations where you could and would...maybe not now, but within your lifetime. i thought the same thing a very long time ago.
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Look at the world today, and compare it to the world 100 years ago.
One thing in particular stands out: people today are more connected with people across the world than ever before. 100 years ago, to travel to another country would have required probably an expensive and long journey. Today, we can be pretty much anywhere within 48 hours, and be there with relatively little fuss or hassle. Additionally, to know and keep up with someone in another country 100 years ago would have required communicating either by letter, by telephone or by telegram etc. Today, we can talk to someone on the other side of the world instantly, at low cost, and whenever we want. Additionally, because of these technologies, we can see pictures, videos and opinions of people from many other countries on the internet with little effort.
One of the results of this is that whereas 100 years ago, a government with sufficient propaganda power could portray another people/race/religion as being subhuman and needing to be destroyed (or as having any characteristic which makes them 'hostile'). Today, that can (and still does, to an extent) happen, but there are far more people who will know that to be false, and to reject such propaganda. One other thing is the anti-war movement. I assume some of you will be firmly opposed to it, but in my opinion it's a positive byproduct of this ease of communication. As more people realise that foreigners from supposedly 'hostile' countries are actually people just like you and me (although living in different circumstances and conditions, of course), and as more people realise the actual cost of war - the more they'll be opposed to it. I think and hope that the result of this will be less war in the world.
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War will always be there, it always has been. When europe came over here to take land from the indians, that was war. When my ancestors owned almost half of europe (Im 100% italian and family was there during roman empire), that was war. No matter how you look at it, you cant stop war.
-BigBOBCH
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"as long as there is man.. there shall be wars" - Albert Einstien.
It is a simple fact. Human beings are neither ignorant, nor bigoted (unless they go out of their way to be so). We are biologically programmed to dislike that which is different, and exterminate that which is seemingly inferior.
Really? I kind of like Mexican cuisine and Asian girls myself.
The majority will always step on the minority. Not to turn this into a political, racial or something of the like thread, but to use an example.
I haven't stepped on a Mormon or a flat-earther in years.
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Really? I kind of like Mexican cuisine and Asian girls myself.
I haven't stepped on a Mormon or a flat-earther in years.
+1 on this, I'd go as far as saying that we're programmed to be wary of what is different, but definitely not to dislike it. And as for exterminating 'inferior' things...well how come so many people keep pets? They're clearly inferior species, yet we care for them like family.
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When my ancestors owned almost half of europe (Im 100% italian and family was there during roman empire), that was war.
Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is a good chance your ancestors are more French or Austrian than Roman
:devil :bolt:
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Yes it is possible. Anything is possible. Will it happen? No.
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Yes it is possible. Anything is possible. Will it happen? No.
You can't say that it won't happen for certain. You can say it's unlikely from what we know now, but honestly we have no idea what will happen next year, let alone what will happen in 100 years from now.
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Let us not conflate the idea of peace with the idea that everyone has to like each other. It is beside the point. Peoples who genuinely dislike each other are capable of sitting at home peacefully in their own neighborhoods or even shopping at the same mall without pitched battles breaking out. (The less you try to FORCE them to like each other, the greater the likelihood of peace breaking out uncontrollably. But I digress...)
In fact, in many wars is it not the case that the combatants were hardly aware of each others' existence before their governments commanded them to go forth and die for whatever purpose it is this week?
Patriotism, duty, obedience to authority, and a willingness to pay your fair share of the tax burden-these are your seeds of war.
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[quote author=gyrene81 link=topic=314074.msg4071961#msg4071961 date=13068473
amazing, you seem so sure about that...i guarantee there are situations where you could and would...maybe not now, but within your lifetime. i thought the same thing a very long time ago.
[/quote]It would be different if someone tried to hurt me or my family or steal my personal stuff. But as of now the idea of killing anyone is none, where it should be.
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Something we talked about in camp today. I figure that its a human condition to have power over others or some means of power. The reason Peace can never be achieved without force is because as long as there are two people on the planet, someone is going to want to be better than the other and will use force to assure it. There's no simple "well if people really tried" Its bull. As long as humans are on the planet there will never be True peace without force. Also I know how outrageous 2 people being the last on the planet is, look at the point, not the probability.
Not to have all brains here(cause I obviously don't) Do anyone of you think Peace is possible without force? If so explain. If not well that's alright too.
IMHO......peace is not attainable unless a force (country) has the material (techonogy) to reach out and strike with deadly force in a manner that efficiently renders the target will to fight in a smoking hole. The country must have the willingness to strike a unilateral blow without consulting a group of nations or seek a diplomatic solution. True peace is at the tip of a sword and always will be. The other guy needs to be afraid of the result of stepping out of line. Yes this is cruel way to look at it. There has been several instances of regional wars or uprisings that could have been stopped or slowed with decisive blows to stop a slaughter.
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Really? I kind of like Mexican cuisine and Asian girls myself.
That's some exotic stuff right there. You're really stepping out of the normal cultural bounds of society.
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That's some exotic stuff right there. You're really stepping out of the normal cultural bounds of society.
Trying to keep it clean on the forums dear boy. :D
They are different. It was alleged that we humans instinctively hate anyone and anything different enough to go to the trouble of arming ourselves and killing them. I say it ain't so, at least not in my case, or the case of many people I know.
I would never convert to Islam, or snake-handling, or pony fetish, or live like a New Guinea tribesman. I could probably name some things some people do that I find positively revolting, like watching reality TV. But somehow my desire to do anything to those people remains somewhat less than zero. The idea that it is written into human DNA to go to war (in the sense of two nation states having at it) doesn't pass the electric Kool-Aid acid test with me.
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You can't say that it won't happen for certain. You can say it's unlikely from what we know now, but honestly we have no idea what will happen next year, let alone what will happen in 100 years from now.
There will always be cultural differences. there will always be unrest between these cultures on these differences. There will always be weapons. There will always be people to man these weapons until the world ends. Weapons will always be used against other human beings.
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Define 'Peace'
I would have to strongly disagree here, the us versus them mentality among people is overwhelming, total homogeneity to a significant degree is the only way to get people off of each others' throats.
Total bs, we are humans and are intelligent enough to take responsibility for our actions, if we want peace we can make it happen. We are fully capable of putting our differences aside, if we want too... But we are too busy trying to make ourselves 'feel' better (by categorizing followed by dehumanizing) and too ignorant to recognize it.
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Victor Davis Hanson (http://city-journal.org/html/17_3_military_history.html) - a good read
Military history teaches us, contrary to popular belief these days, that wars aren’t necessarily the most costly of human calamities. The first Gulf War took few lives in getting Saddam out of Kuwait; doing nothing in Rwanda allowed savage gangs and militias to murder hundreds of thousands with impunity. Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin killed far more off the battlefield than on it. The 1918 Spanish flu epidemic brought down more people than World War I did. And more Americans—over 3.2 million—lost their lives driving over the last 90 years than died in combat in this nation’s 231-year history. Perhaps what bothers us about wars, though, isn’t just their horrific lethality but also that people choose to wage them—which makes them seem avoidable, unlike a flu virus or a car wreck, and their tolls unduly grievous. Yet military history also reminds us that war sometimes has an eerie utility: as British strategist Basil H. Liddell Hart put it, “War is always a matter of doing evil in the hope that good may come of it.” Wars—or threats of wars—put an end to chattel slavery, Nazism, fascism, Japanese militarism, and Soviet Communism.
Military history is as often the story of appeasement as of warmongering. The destructive military careers of Alexander the Great, Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler would all have ended early had any of their numerous enemies united when the odds favored them. Western air power stopped Slobodan Milošević’s reign of terror at little cost to NATO forces—but only after a near-decade of inaction and dialogue had made possible the slaughter of tens of thousands. Affluent Western societies have often proved reluctant to use force to prevent greater future violence. “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things,” observed the British philosopher John Stuart Mill. “The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.”
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So do I as point of fact.
But at the same time, would you want these things as the norm, living with you, treating you like aliens? Because that is what is taking place in the USA and it is obviously causing major problems in terms of cultural perception and at the current rate, could indeed be reversed
I am not saying ALL of us are like this. Some of us have some collage of an understanding. But the majority do not.
To quote one of the most intelligent movie characters in history
"The individual is smart, PEOPLE are stupid, clumsy and panicky" - Agent K - Men In Black.
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But at the same time, would you want these things as the norm, living with you, treating you like aliens? Because that is what is taking place in the USA and it is obviously causing major problems in terms of cultural perception and at the current rate, could indeed be reversed
Not sure what you're saying here, I think I know, but don't want to put words in your mouth... care to extrapolate?
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I couldn't bring myself to kill a living thing, unless its a bug or rabid dog. But a zombie Apocalypse would be awesome :rofl
Make sure you stay out of the military then... lots of killing of living things going on. Even in training, such as survival school, you may be called upon to kill a defenseless little bunny. And eat it. And then go looking for more things to kill and eat.
Qualms about killing things just because they're living... Well, that's the business, taking living things and making them not-living. Even the refrigeration repair specialists and commissary troops have a role to play in the destruction of life in the military. There are plenty of good reasons to kill something or someone, so if that has a special horror for you that would render you incapable of killing when required to do so, then make sure you find another job.
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"Make sure you stay out of the military then.."
Too late F22spamDude claims to be a marine stationed in Camp Pendleton