Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Letalis on June 15, 2011, 04:40:25 AM
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/F7F-3P_Tigercat.jpg/300px-F7F-3P_Tigercat.jpg)
If I were to build a WWII twin-engine fighter myself, this would be the closest thing to it. Are there other aircraft more "deserving" out there? Absolutely no argument here. Did the F7F shoot down any aircraft in combat during WWII? No.
Things are not looking good for this wish...
However comma,
If it were up to me the 47M would be perked vis a vis the C-Hog, not just because of effectiveness but due to small production numbers. Production for those two variants came out to ~130 each yet are common in the MA. Why? Because they're fun! Total production of the F7F topped 300 units of all variants, (189 F7F-3s) which is also more than the Ar234 (which I might add was primarily used for photo recon) The Tigercat was deployed in the Pacific pre-VJ Day (photo recon) but saw no combat. Could it have seen combat? Yes. Admin factors weighed heavily; with the exception of carrier qualification the aircraft was ready to go as a land-based asset much like the Corsair was in '43. Production was simply not a priority and there was no urgent operational need. My argument for this sexy bird comes down to this: #1 I want to actually spend my perks IE fly the love child of an A-20 and a P-38. Those are some good airplane genes :O #2 Both the F7F and the 47M reached operational units in-theater prior to the end of hostilities but the 47M has about a dozen A-A kills credited vs zero for the F7F. The margin is frustratingly small and I personally can't think of a more fun addition to the planeset vaguely meeting inclusion criteria.
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Since it saw no combat, it can't be added at this time.
Sure, it had the potential to see combat, but the fact is it didn't. In fact I'm not sure it was in an operational squadron by war's end.
-1
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See how the bs about what HTC's supposed criteria is perpetuated?
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See how the bs about what HTC's supposed criteria is perpetuated?
why is it BS?
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See how the bs about what HTC's supposed criteria is perpetuated?
What is the criteria then Sir? In four years time I have yet to see a single aircraft/vehicle added that did not see combat in squadron strength.
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See how the bs about what HTC's supposed criteria is perpetuated?
Westy, nothing supposed about it. For many many many years, if not from the start, they have said, must be a production plane (no prototypes), must have served in at least unit strength (no "2 flew here" etc), and must have seen combat.
No BS about it. No myth about it. Do your own research. You're the one perpetuating a "myth" that there is a myth or any doubt whatsoever.
EDIT: I shouldn't have to tell you. You've been a registered forum member since 2001. You should know this by now as it has been rehashed and discussed countless times over the years.
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It's a wish post it, who knows if it is the new plane for the 2012 con. anybody remember the claw?
semp
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The claw took almost no work, and it was stated they got the graphics from an outside source for cheap, and the flight model was so simplistic it took no time at all.
Claw was a freebie, not a real plane.
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I'm a fan of HTC's criteria. A bunch of Go229s flying around would ruin the feel of the game. The F8F and P-80 would also be fun to fly but they don't really have a leg to stand on, the F7F might. Modeling would be a pain compared to the 47M ad -1C but if you do not ask, you will not receive... :pray
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but if you do not ask, you will not receive... :pray
True, true.
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While it doesnt qualify for inclusion, Id love to see what HTC did with the F7F, bet it would be a blast to fly.
But then again, im a 2 engine dweeb :D
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Westy, nothing supposed about it. For many many many years, if not from the start, they have said, must be a production plane (no prototypes), must have served in at least unit strength (no "2 flew here" etc), and must have seen combat.
No BS about it. No myth about it. Do your own research. You're the one perpetuating a "myth" that there is a myth or any doubt whatsoever.
EDIT: I shouldn't have to tell you. You've been a registered forum member since 2001. You should know this by now as it has been rehashed and discussed countless times over the years.
Have yet to see a actual quote from HTC about the rules for inclusion. Only people posting that "HTC said so". I for one would love the F7F and F8F, as well as any aircraft in production during the war. If they were made to fight in the war, what difference should it make if they were a few weeks too late?
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If it was up to me (which it's obviously not) I would define "seeing combat" as being involved (flying) in an active combat theater. Not necessarily by firing it's guns in anger. Even if they were only doing recce duty, I'm sure the pilots appreciated the fact that they were definately in a combat setting, and that there were still risks involved with that type of flying.
Now, if THAT was our definition of "seeing combat", and it was in squadron strength, then a big +1.
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If it was up to me (which it's obviously not) I would define "seeing combat" as being involved (flying) in an active combat theater. Not necessarily by firing it's guns in anger. Even if they were only doing recce duty, I'm sure the pilots appreciated the fact that they were definately in a combat setting, and that there were still risks involved with that type of flying.
Now, if THAT was our definition of "seeing combat", and it was in squadron strength, then a big +1.
My reasoning exactly. Aerial targets in the PTO (mainland Japan exception) were hard to come by in the closing months.
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I vote the Meteor MkIII before this thing. :D
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I vote the Meteor MkIII before this thing. :D
Actually, I'd go for both the Meteor and the F7F. Photo recon over enemy territory is a combat mission folks. Plenty of people doing 'photo recon' ended up KIA. The Meteor was deployed, in squadron strength, but just didn't see combat over enemy territory as they were busy intercepting V-1s.
IMHO, rides like these should be added as perk rides. This is the kind of 'what if' that keeps players interested, and this game could use a big dose of things to keep players (new and old) interested.
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My reasoning exactly. Aerial targets in the PTO (mainland Japan exception) were hard to come by in the closing months.
if the f7f had actually been deployed to combat squadrons prior to the japanese surrender, that argument would work...but, looking up marine squadron histories, it looks like the f7f made it to deployment status just a couple of days prior to the japanese surrender.
you can look up the squadrons yourself:
http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Organization/USMC_Squadrons_WW2.htm (http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Organization/USMC_Squadrons_WW2.htm)
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Good link resource. :aok
I noticed on the page that the VMF(N)-531 “Gray Ghosts” must have flown the F7F prior to re designation in Sep '44. :bolt:
I have not found which specific units it was active with in PTO, just went off this -v- highly recommended book and memory. Darn admin!
http://www.amazon.com/American-Fighter-Enzo-Angelucci/dp/0517565889
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Actually, I'd go for both the Meteor and the F7F. Photo recon over enemy territory is a combat mission folks. Plenty of people doing 'photo recon' ended up KIA. The Meteor was deployed, in squadron strength, but just didn't see combat over enemy territory as they were busy intercepting V-1s.
IMHO, rides like these should be added as perk rides. This is the kind of 'what if' that keeps players interested, and this game could use a big dose of things to keep players (new and old) interested.
I guarantee those young pilots full of whizz & vinegar were strafing things with em, photo recon or not!
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Good link resource. :aok
I noticed on the page that the VMF(N)-531 “Gray Ghosts” must have flown the F7F prior to re designation in Sep '44. :bolt:
I have not found which specific units it was active with in PTO, just went off this -v- highly recommended book and memory. Darn admin!
http://www.amazon.com/American-Fighter-Enzo-Angelucci/dp/0517565889
ya i looked up all but 2 of the squadrons shown on the list...according to the squadron histories using the f7f for cross referencing...you might want to expand the number of references you use. not even the marine corps squadrons who got assigned the f7f list any flight activity in hostile zones prior to the japanese surrender.
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No Krusty. they've never, ever said any such thing.
"What is the criteria then Sir?"
Only HTC employees know. That's why I'm sick of the ignorant wishlist
denizens regurgitating the same old, patently false claims.
It's as lame and ignorant as chiming "IN" on a topic bordering on being
locked.
I'm not saying folks shouldn't express their OPINION but don't pass it
off as a definitive process that HTC employs.
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ya i looked up all but 2 of the squadrons shown on the list...according to the squadron histories using the f7f for cross referencing...you might want to expand the number of references you use. not even the marine corps squadrons who got assigned the f7f list any flight activity in hostile zones prior to the japanese surrender.
Never said I'd proven combat, only that I placed trust in solid resources that claimed deployment and service in PTO. There was no rush to get Tigercats to the front line- even if they did not see action ("whizz and vinegar") the point is that they easily could have been right alongside the F4U4 and had higher production numbers than aircraft already in the game. The F7F flew nearly two years before the end of the war and was in service with active units a year prior. As a perk ride the F7F does not unbalance the game while adding to the fun factor IMHO.
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Never said I'd proven combat, only that I placed trust in solid resources that claimed deployment and service in PTO. There was no rush to get Tigercats to the front line- even if they did not see action ("whizz and vinegar") the point is that they easily could have been right alongside the F4U4 and had higher production numbers than aircraft already in the game.
you didn't actually look at what the marines were flying at the time did you? the majority were flying f6f and f4u-1s as late as 45...the f4u4 got to front line units late as in 45. and yeah, the f7fs could have been right along side, not in hostile zones and just 2 days before the end of the war.
The F7F flew nearly two years before the end of the war and was in service with active units a year prior. As a perk ride the F7F does not unbalance the game while adding to the fun factor IMHO.
you're just wanting it because of the mega speed and quad 20mm's...read it again, look up the actual places those squadrons were operating at the time they got the limited numbers of f7fs prior to the end of the war. its a very tough search...if we were talking korean war, and night time, the f7f would be perfect.
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Criteria shmiteria. "Criteria" is just a fancy official term to attempt to set something in stone to absolve any potential dispute. Just like a business owner telling you "Sorry, that's our policy, we can't budge" even though he wrote the policy and can do whatever he wants! It's silly. I think HTC's criteria is generally a good rule of thumb for adding a new aircraft, but aircraft like this would be great to have in the game. It was flown during WW2 and would likely match up fairly well with other LW birds and would be fun (The most important metric trust me). Is it more deserving than other aircraft that should be inducted sooner? Probably not from a historical perspective, but from an LW Arena Competitive/More fun perspective? Perhaps it is.
Jets never saw "combat" flying and fighting on the deck yet it happens all the time in the MA. The counter argument to that is, "It would have been possible though". Bingo! Would the F7F have been capable of entering into combat in WW2? That answer is yes, it was available, and it was a WW2 bird.
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Grizz, don't be stupid... You're getting authentic tools to use as you see fit in modern ways. Those tools had to have been used, though, historically. They have to be "authentic". So yes they may not be USED exactly how they were in WW2, but they were used nonetheless as a weapon system in the war.
More jets were shot down low on the deck than at 25K, FYI. A large percentage of them, in fact.
Westy, your bitterness is dressed in ignorance. I've seen the posts before. The AH search function is porked (and has been for years) so I cannot give you the exact quoted threads. Suffice it to say those that give a crap and pay attention (clearly not you) can vouch that HTC has chimed in a time or two.
These are not made up requirements.
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Those tools had to have been used, though, historically.
Says who?
They have to be "authentic".
F7F isn't "authentic?" It was around during WW2 and got deployed. Seems authentic enough to me.
More jets were shot down low on the deck than at 25K, FYI. A large percentage of them, in fact.
I'm not a WW2 expert so I just assumed they weren't, but that is just a talking point anyways. I could say the same for ME163s on the deck and be completely accurate and prove my point just the same.
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uh grizz...these flew in ww2 as well...think they should be included? after all, they would match up well with their contemporaries...and many actually saw combat, unlike the f7f...
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/p-80.jpg)
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/demon.jpg)
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/vanguard.jpg)
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/bwidow1.jpg)
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/bearcat.jpg)
(http://www.boeing.com/history/bna/images/bt9c_n.jpg)
(http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/at6-1.jpg)
may as well call it some version of il2 and get it over with...unless/until htc decides to include the korean war era.
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I thought we were talking about the F7F? I'm actually trying to avoid making sweeping generalizations in regards to what should and shouldn't be added, unlike you and HTC, noble BBS warrior. :aok
Plane to plane basis and see how it "feels".
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I thought we were talking about the F7F? I'm actually trying to avoid making sweeping generalizations in regards to what should and shouldn't be added, unlike you and HTC, noble BBS warrior. :aok
Plane to plane basis and see how it "feels".
yeah...that's your story and you're sticking to it...
It was flown during WW2 and would likely match up fairly well with other LW birds and would be fun (The most important metric trust me).
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I'd love ANY plane to be added...its been a while now
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What will the "all newer American aircraft first" people do once they get the F7F, F8F, P-51H and YP-80 added?
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Ask for aircraft like the Polish PZL P.11 which had as much impact in
WWII as any of those.
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What will the "all newer American aircraft first" people do once they get the F7F, F8F, P-51H and YP-80 added?
F86, F102, F104, F14, F16, F22... :ahand
If you guys all ask for the cream of the über almost-experimental late war monesters, this game will be boring very soon.
Mid-war FTW! (109F vs spit9)
Seriously, will be much more fun to see some mid-war rides. Jak-1, La-5, Lagg-3, Ju-188, Me-410, even the Westland Whirlwind or the Hurri2B.
Its my opinion. Flame suit on.
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What will the "all newer American aircraft first" people do once they get the F7F, F8F, P-51H and YP-80 added?
Watch you blow your stack? :D
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yeah...that's your story and you're sticking to it...
Is this supposed to be a complete thought?
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Hello HTC,
What qualifications must a new plane or vehicle have to be included for development into Aces High?
Sincerely,
Way
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If it was up to me (which it's obviously not) I would define "seeing combat" as being involved (flying) in an active combat theater. Not necessarily by firing it's guns in anger. Even if they were only doing recce duty, I'm sure the pilots appreciated the fact that they were definately in a combat setting, and that there were still risks involved with that type of flying.
Now, if THAT was our definition of "seeing combat", and it was in squadron strength, then a big +1.
I can't find the link any more on HTC's site. Not sure if it is available now since the changes. If I recall the aircraft had to see service during WWII & at squadron strength. Depends on how you define service I guess :headscratch:. That aside the general rule of thumb as Krusty mentioned is if it did not see combat not permitted.
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@Gyrene: I believe the P-80 saw six units arrive in Italy a week or two prior to V-E Day- no combat, hardly valid as "squadron strength." The F8F was in production prior to VJ day but was still in the process of being delivered to operational units. Neither of these examples are in HTC's criteria ballpark. (As I remember it from a few yrs back: "Must have been in general production and seen combat" but, like Krusty, couldn't find it.)
As for the rest of the examples, I'm a fan of the P-61 but don't see any of the other examples finding any niche in the MA which brings me to the next point; MW rides invariably had a bigger impact on the war than the F7F and would be great to see. There is no doubt in my mind that additions of the Whirlwind, Swordfish, Gladiator, Mig-1 etc etc. would make AH a richer historical experience. Here's my angle though: unless you are flying in EW or MW, these aircraft are not competitive. For better or worse, 95% of the AH player experience takes place in LW. E/MW aircraft will in all likelihood be non-factors (P39D graphs Lusche?) except to a very very small portion of an already dwindling player population. The F7F might actually qualify AND add to the fun factor for a majority of players. AH is the last of its breed because OUR BREED is dying. I'm not in favor of turning this into an Xbox arcade experience, that would violate what this is imho, the highest fidelity WWII sim (a digital "ark" if you will) on the market. Let's keep it interesting.
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@Gyrene: I believe the P-80 saw six units arrive in Italy a week or two prior to V-E Day- no combat, hardly valid as "squadron strength." The F8F was in production prior to VJ day but was still in the process of being delivered to operational units. Neither of these examples are in HTC's criteria ballpark. (As I remember it from a few yrs back: "Must have been in general production and seen combat" but, like Krusty, couldn't find it.)
As for the rest of the examples, I'm a fan of the P-61 but don't see any of the other examples finding any niche in the MA which brings me to the next point; MW rides invariably had a bigger impact on the war than the F7F and would be great to see. There is no doubt in my mind that additions of the Whirlwind, Swordfish, Gladiator, Mig-1 etc etc. would make AH a richer historical experience. Here's my angle though: unless you are flying in EW or MW, these aircraft are not competitive. For better or worse, 95% of the AH player experience takes place in LW. E/MW aircraft will in all likelihood be non-factors (P39D graphs Lusche?) except to a very very small portion of an already dwindling player population. The F7F might actually qualify AND add to the fun factor for a majority of players. AH is the last of its breed because OUR BREED is dying. I'm not in favor of turning this into an Xbox arcade experience, that would violate what this is imho, the highest fidelity WWII sim (a digital "ark" if you will) on the market. Let's keep it interesting.
You're right, they're wrong. Point proved. :aok
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You're right, they're wrong. Point proved. :aok
clueless yet again...
@Gyrene: I believe the P-80 saw six units arrive in Italy a week or two prior to V-E Day- no combat, hardly valid as "squadron strength." The F8F was in production prior to VJ day but was still in the process of being delivered to operational units. Neither of these examples are in HTC's criteria ballpark. (As I remember it from a few yrs back: "Must have been in general production and seen combat" but, like Krusty, couldn't find it.)
As for the rest of the examples, I'm a fan of the P-61 but don't see any of the other examples finding any niche in the MA which brings me to the next point; MW rides invariably had a bigger impact on the war than the F7F and would be great to see. There is no doubt in my mind that additions of the Whirlwind, Swordfish, Gladiator, Mig-1 etc etc. would make AH a richer historical experience. Here's my angle though: unless you are flying in EW or MW, these aircraft are not competitive. For better or worse, 95% of the AH player experience takes place in LW. E/MW aircraft will in all likelihood be non-factors (P39D graphs Lusche?) except to a very very small portion of an already dwindling player population. The F7F might actually qualify AND add to the fun factor for a majority of players. AH is the last of its breed because OUR BREED is dying. I'm not in favor of turning this into an Xbox arcade experience, that would violate what this is imho, the highest fidelity WWII sim (a digital "ark" if you will) on the market. Let's keep it interesting.
those examples were just me playing on clueless grizz's statement of "it flew during ww2 and should be included", not intended to be examples of aircraft that actually should be included in ah.
anyone who has been around more than a few months knows the reason why the lw arena is more populated than the other arenas...and i could honestly care less whether or not the f7f were included...it would just be another uber late war allied monster plane. since the ta-152, me163 and me262 are included, if htc decided to include the f7f in its operational night fighter configuration, i doubt anyone would have too much of a problem with it.
i'm just arguing the facts of ww2 deployment history of the f7f which early deployment records are somewhat cloudy. digging into every readily available history of marine squadrons listed to have received f7fs, the first orders of operational f7f-1s put into production and deployed to active marine squadrons were sent to training squadrons vmf-911 and vmf-912 out of mcas cherry point. vmf(n)-531-1/2 was a front line night fighter combat squadron until late 1944 when both wings became a state side training units and according to one source in june of 1945 they had 15 f7f-1ns, 15 f7f-2ns and 2 f7f-3ns. vmf(n)-532 received f7f-2ns in 1946. vmf(n)-533 received f7f-3ns some time after october of 1945 in peiping china.
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"(As I remember it from a few yrs back: "Must have been in general production and seen
combat" but, like Krusty, couldn't find it.) "
Can't find something that was never said.
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those examples were just me playing on clueless grizz's statement of "it flew during ww2 and should be included", not intended to be examples of aircraft that actually should be included in ah.
Actually what I said was, if it flew during ww2 it should be considered. No reason for further elaboration, since you have already been proven wrong by Letalis and I.
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Actually what I said was, if it flew during ww2 it should be considered. No reason for further elaboration, since you have already been proven wrong by Letalis and I.
:rofl ok...
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This game is chock full of "what ifs" that never happened during the War. WHAT IF the Germans captured a Spit IX and it fought against a P-47M? That and a thousand other what-if scenarios happen every night in the MA. This is a game where WW2 aircraft junkies get to fly their dream rides into combat - IMHO HTC might want to reconsider its 'criteria' in light of declining player numbers and think about adding a whole lot of perked late war monsters to get some new interest going.
F7F / F8F / P51H
Do-335
He-162
P-80
Meteor
Me-262A-2 or at least armament variants for the A-1
The late war MA is where all the action is right now, and even it is getting stale. Having a load of new perked rides might generate some more action and bring some older players back.
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*Cough Cough* P-61 :lol
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I'd prefer to spend my perks on a Gloster Meteor :noid M.I.L.F
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New Squawk: 7500
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Ok, Google (or go straight to Wiki) and just search "All Aircraft of WW2" and click the link for Wiki. Im sure someone may have a better source for this but it shows every single Aircraft, year they came into service, variants, etc of every Aircraft during that period of time. Research this from now on before asking for Aircraft that were buit but never deployed IN COMBAT during the Second World War... :salute
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Ok, Google (or go straight to Wiki) and just search "All Aircraft of WW2" and click the link for Wiki. Im sure someone may have a better source for this but it shows every single Aircraft, year they came into service, variants, etc of every Aircraft during that period of time. Research this from now on before asking for Aircraft that were buit but never deployed IN COMBAT during the Second World War... :salute
Hey Scotty, you're a little late. The flaming part of the discussion was earlier. :D
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Ok, Google (or go straight to Wiki) and just search "All Aircraft of WW2" and click the link for Wiki. Im sure someone may have a better source for this but it shows every single Aircraft, year they came into service, variants, etc of every Aircraft during that period of time. Research this from now on before asking for Aircraft that were buit but never deployed IN COMBAT during the Second World War... :salute
No it shows when it was designed or first flight.
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The problem with narrowing it only to planes that flew during the WW2 time frame, means it would include a lot of one off birds too. While I make no claim that HTC said they had to have seen combat. That does seem like a reasonable qualification as even at this point there are numerous WW2 birds that saw combat that we don't have in game. Think Oscar, Beaufighter, Pe-2 etc along with any number of different versions of Spitfires, 109s, P40s, Mustangs, and so on. Those seem more important to me because of Special events stuff that goes along with MA stuff.
If HTC decides to do Airwar 1946, then I think the birds that just missed it would make more sense and I'd hope for an arena dedicated to those types of birds, as you'd be talking Sea Furies, P80s, Tigercats, Bearcats, P51Hs Spit 22/24 and all those what if Axis birds.
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Think Oscar, Beaufighter, Pe-2 etc along with any number of different versions of Spitfires, 109s, P40s, Mustangs, and so on. Those seem more important to me because of Special events stuff that goes along with MA stuff.
If HTC decides to do Airwar 1946, then I think the birds that just missed it would make more sense and I'd hope for an arena dedicated to those types of birds, as you'd be talking Sea Furies, P80s, Tigercats, Bearcats, P51Hs Spit 22/24 and all those what if Axis birds.
Historically yes. But the MA is where most of AH time is logged and is the bread and butter of the game. Does adding a historical plane that will not be competitive in the MA and end up being a hangar queen really help business? I'm not saying the F7F should be included, but it should at least be on a list for consideration based on the merit that it was a WW2 era bird, was deployed, could have seen combat, and would see action in the MA, hence more fun for a lot of players who find their new fav plane.
Purely unrealistic hypothetical, but do you think HTC would "adjust" their criterion of "must have seen combat in WW2" if they discovered there were 500 players that would immediately sign up for the game based on the inclusion of a specific plane?
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Theres another good reason for a Korean arena. :D
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Purely unrealistic hypothetical, but do you think HTC would "adjust" their criterion of "must have seen combat in WW2" if they discovered there were 500 players that would immediately sign up for the game based on the inclusion of a specific plane?
I am sure they would as far as something like an almost made it F7F or F8F. I can't think of any aircraft that would have that effect though, particularly due to the hefty perk price it would have.
Theres another good reason for a Korean arena. :D
I thought the F7F missed Korea too?
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I thought the F7F missed Korea too?
no, marine units used the f7f-3n early in the war for night fighter operations. scored a few kills too before they scrapped it.
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Maybe I was thinking of the F8F? Did that miss Korea?
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Just a thought not a complaint. The F7F was there...but did not participate.
The Bristol Beaufighter fought in every theater of the War throughout the duration of the war and is not included
in the AH inventory.
<shrugs>
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I vote the Meteor MkIII before this thing. :D
<---what he said.
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I'm a fan of HTC's criteria. A bunch of Go229s flying around would ruin the feel of the game. The F8F and P-80 would also be fun to fly but they don't really have a leg to stand on, the F7F might. Modeling would be a pain compared to the 47M ad -1C but if you do not ask, you will not receive... :pray
F8F is in the same boat as teh F7f...no? I thought F8Fs were on carriers steaming inthe Pacific when before the war ended. So they were Mass produced, deployed in Squadren strength, but didn't see combat.
would love to fly both planes. Perhaps when the planes that saw combat list is complete, the "saw combat" criteria can be relaxed to include some of the near misses. Long way to go though. :D
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New Squawk: 7500
LOL
There are so many planes that actually flew combat missions that should be added before these post war uber planes.