Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: clerick on June 17, 2011, 01:57:16 AM
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I was watching a show about the Mossie today and they claimed that the Mossie was so tough to shoot down that German pilots were awarded two kills if they got one. Is that true?
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NO!
No self respecting German would ever claim 2 kills for 1 aircraft shot down. The German brain is far too logical and methodical for this kind of malarkey.
I think we can probably file this one along side all the nicknames that the victors tend to claim the defeated had given to the victor's' more devastating war implements.
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Isn't that a fancy way to define over-claiming of kills?
The 8th airforce bomber gunners claimed to have shot down the entire Luftwaffe twice.
Did that show also say that the mossie was invisible to radar because it was made out of wood? :rolleyes:
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So they didn't actually shoot down the entire Luftwaffe twice?
Is this why only "confirmed kills" count now?
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Isn't that a fancy way to define over-claiming of kills?
The 8th airforce bomber gunners claimed to have shot down the entire Luftwaffe twice.
Did that show also say that the mossie was invisible to radar because it was made out of wood? :rolleyes:
Nope, no mention of radar absorption. Was mostly a lot of interviews with pilots and descriptions of some of the missions they flew as well as a brief history. It was just that one "fact" that made me :huh
It's why i asked it here.
:EDIT:
Ran across this.
For decorations, the Germans had a points system: one for a fighter, two for a twin-engine bomber, three for a four-engine bomber; night victories counted double; Mosquitoes counted double, due to how difficult targets they were. See Johnson, J. E. "Johnnie", Group Captain, RAF. Wing Leader (Ballantine, 1967), p.264.
I had never heard any of this. Still seems a bit fishy. Does that mean a 38 counted as two? :D
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I stand corrected.
Mossies were as invisible to radar as corvettes are to police radar. Neither have bodies made of radio-reflecting material but they both have lots of metal under the skin that will reflect the radar energy.
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I stand corrected.
Mossies were as invisible to radar as corvettes are to police radar. Neither have bodies made of radio-reflecting material but they both have lots of metal under the skin that will reflect the radar energy.
The radar invisibility is a myth. Mosquitoes were just as visible to radar as any other aircraft their size. They were however so fast in the cruise that intercepting them was very difficult, particularly given that they operated at night most of the time.
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That's what I said, the metal parts under the skin reflect radar waves.
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Pretty certain the "two kills" chestnut is a myth - not sure how many points were awarded for Mossies, never read/heard anything in German to describe how points were calculated.
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Isn't that a fancy way to define over-claiming of kills?
The 8th airforce bomber gunners claimed to have shot down the entire Luftwaffe twice.
Did that show also say that the mossie was invisible to radar because it was made out of wood? :rolleyes:
Lol, I have read an article about this! Seems that all those Supporting Fighters on all those long Bomber Sorties to and from Germany and other targets in Nazi Occupied Europe didnt shoot down a single German Aircraft because, as the whole of the US 8th AF Wasit, Bellly, and Tail gunners shot down all those LW Fighters lol. Isn't war funny???
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Ran across this.
For decorations, the Germans had a points system: one for a fighter, two for a twin-engine bomber, three for a four-engine bomber; night victories counted double; Mosquitoes counted double, due to how difficult targets they were. See Johnson, J. E. "Johnnie", Group Captain, RAF. Wing Leader (Ballantine, 1967), p.264.
You get your Iron Cross sooner for shooting down bombers than for shooting down fighters. You still haven't shot down more planes.
wrongway
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That's what I said, the metal parts under the skin reflect radar waves.
Since radar can see clouds, I don't think wood would be an overwhelming challenge. Just FYI, I have personally
locked onto clouds and automagically tracked them at least 20 miles out with a 1970s era fire control radar.
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You get your Iron Cross sooner for shooting down bombers than for shooting down fighters. You still haven't shot down more planes.
wrongway
right, a mossie counted as four single engine fighters. (2 engines + double points)
A p61 would also count 4, 2 engines at night.
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right, a mossie counted as four single engine fighters. (2 engines + double points)
A p61 would also count 4, 2 engines at night.
And a Lanc would be 6 (Mostly night raids)
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Ruy Horta seems to have good info:
http://rhorta.home.xs4all.nl/jgscor.htm
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And what were the LW claims in the BoB compared to the actual facts? :neener:
The Brits overclaimed by some double, and put a tight screw on their system after that.
One renowned Britishace could not confirm one kill before he actually found the enemy wreck, and brought a part of it to the intel officer. I think that was Geoffrey Page.
Some RAF aces have been rising in scores way after the war ended, since evidence has been emerging.
I've been trying to track some claims and compare them to loss reports. It is a pain, since the LW loss reports are not so complete, and still chaotically filed. (I was in the archives of the PRO and IWM, London). I did find all sorts of the fog of war in the files, - debriefs done later, missing files, and wrong dates. I also found guncam files without any correspondance to a claim or a loss. (When you see an aircraft shot to bits you'd think there was one).
Anyway, I'd be happy if anyone could lend me a hand with a couple of LW losses and engagements at certain dates. It involved KIA and POW, and possibly some claims on both sides. Anyone game?
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In the first month of the Battle of Britain the British actually underclaimed, the Germans overclaimed by about two to one. In the following two months the British overclaimed by about two to one on average and the Germans overclaimed by three or four to one.
To the best of my knowledge, only the Finnish ended the war with fewer claims than their opponents recorded as losses.
As to the RAF aces seeing kills confirmed well after the war, I seem to recall that Standford Tuck had one or two confirmed in the 1990s after he had passed away.
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I don't have particularly good LW loss information, but I can help with Mossie losses and claims if you are after any, Angus.
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"And what were the LW claims in the BoB compared to the actual facts? neener"
Grow up Angus, really. :lol
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