Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Kingpin on June 22, 2011, 04:11:46 PM
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Hello all,
Lately it seems I am getting more kills using deflection shots, rather than straight 6 shots. In the past I have almost exclusively tried to fly to a con's 6 in order to saddle up before shooting. However, lately I have found that if I can set up a nice deflection shot, I am seeing what seems to be better damage results.
For example, from the 6 postion, it seems I can fire solid bursts at D300-400 (near convergence), while getting steady hits, often with little to no effect. Whereas, if I can catch the con in a turn/scissors and make a solid deflection shot on the wing surface, the wing seems to come right off. As a side bonus, I am also getting more PK head shots this way too. This all seems a little odd to me, because I get PW'd or even PK'd from straight 6 shots out as far as 800 all the time.
Relevant questions:
1) Does this have something to do with how damage is modeled in the game, i.e. hits on a wider area of wing surface are actually more effective than hits in a single rear area?
2) Is the cockpit more vulnerable in a straight 6 shot than I think, and I should be aiming there rather than wing roots?
3) Is pilot head postion actually factored into the damage model? (In other words, does looking back make you more likely to be brainboxed rather than hunkering down behind your pilot armor?)
4) What other factors might be at play here?
Thanks for any feedback.
:salute
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well the hardest shot to make is a dead 6 shot.
a deflection shot gives you a much bigger target
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Thanks, INK. I do understand the sight profile difference and how that might be a factor. However what I seem to be experiencing is getting hits (seeing hit sprites) in both situations, but that the deflection shots are more EFFECTIVE (doing more damage) than hits from the 6 position.
So, that got me thinking, and raised the questions that I posted about the damage modeling.
Thanks for the response, sir. :salute
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Thanks, INK. I do understand the sight profile difference and how that might be a factor. However what I seem to be experiencing is getting hits (seeing is hit sprites) in both situations, but that the deflection shots are more EFFECTIVE (doing more damage) than hits from the 6 position.
So, that got me thinking, and raised the questions that I posted about the damage modeling.
Thanks for the response, sir. :salute
No prob....what I think is happening is you are just landing more rounds thus getting more damage, I used to be all about saddling someone to get the kill, but not anymore it is all about the angles now and deflection shooting is 99% of how I make my kills. the one issue is you will have a lot more cry "HO"
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Also a deflection shot gives you a much higher chance of getting cockpit hits which can get you a pilot kill (instant death).
While I don't know the technical info on these planes, I also have a feeling the top of the planes are more fragile than the rears.
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No prob....what I think is happening is you are just landing more rounds thus getting more damage, I used to be all about saddling someone to get the kill, but not anymore it is all about the angles now and deflection shooting is 99% of how I make my kills. the one issue is you will have a lot more cry "HO"
Very true. I get a lot of that crying. :cry
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Very true. I get a lot of that crying. :cry
There is a reason for that which is unrelated to the topic of dead-6 shots vs. high angle deflection shots on cold/defensive AC, and the relative damage results. You could start another thread on that, though, where it could be discussed. ;)
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Crossing shots are the easiest, because it gives you the while profile of their A/c. The only problem is if u have 50cals it is harder to kill them.
I try to aim for the wings, I think it's a bigger target and easier to break the wing
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Hi Kingpin,
I was my understanding that the balistics model is actualy quite detailed in this game. For instance the angle which rounds hit an object plays a part in how much damage they do. Just like a tank round hitting on an angle may bounce off an area that it would penetrate at 90 degrees. I could be wrong but I believe that from dead six the rounds are capable of richochet when hitting the wing at that angle.
Another fact is that from dead 6 the energy is reduced due to the target flying away from the direction of the round. In head on shots the energy is increased. So in deflections the round is often more damaging than dead 6 shots. Again, I could be wrong but that is how I understood the game to be modelled.
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Hi Kingpin,
I was my understanding that the balistics model is actualy quite detailed in this game. For instance the angle which rounds hit an object plays a part in how much damage they do. Just like a tank round hitting on an angle may bounce off an area that it would penetrate at 90 degrees. I could be wrong but I believe that from dead six the rounds are capable of richochet when hitting the wing at that angle.
Another fact is that from dead 6 the energy is reduced due to the target flying away from the direction of the round. In head on shots the energy is increased. So in deflections the round is often more damaging than dead 6 shots. Again, I could be wrong but that is how I understood the game to be modelled.
That is a great theory and I would be very interested in if this is correct or not. Anyone know?
Quincy
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well the hardest shot to make is a dead 6 shot.
a deflection shot gives you a much bigger target
The dead six shot is not the hardest shot to make, fighter pilots were taught to approach a bandit's dead six position slightly off angle to present more of a profile and larger target.
ack-ack
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Would the stress on the airframe during scissors add to the ease of getting the wing to come off from a crossing shot versus a dead-six shot on a barely manuvering plane?
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The dead six shot is not the hardest shot to make, fighter pilots were taught to approach a bandit's dead six position slightly off angle to present more of a profile and larger target.
ack-ack
It's the hardest 30mm shot within close range.
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The dead six shot is not the hardest shot to make, fighter pilots were taught to approach a bandit's dead six position slightly off angle to present more of a profile and larger target.
ack-ack
hmmmm....ok
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The dead six shot is not the hardest shot to make, fighter pilots were taught to approach a bandit's dead six position slightly off angle to present more of a profile and larger target.
:headscratch: If it's off angle it isn't dead six
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Is the armor plate behind the pilot modeled in the game for the planes which had them? That might account for pilot protection from the 6 shot.
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That is a great theory and I would be very interested in if this is correct or not. Anyone know?
Quincy
You could walk/drive to the office and ask them :)
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The ballistics model is affected by the speed of the firer, so I would guess the damage model is affected by the relative speed of the projectile to the target.
The best way I can think of to test this reliably is fly formation with an enemy bomber from the front, behind, left and right, and above and below and record the number of rounds it takes to do critical damage to individual spots on the A/C.
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You could walk/drive to the office and ask them :)
Used to be able to, now they are out of Ft. Worth. Moved about... a month ago?
Still could drive I guess :)
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I think that one reason deflection might do more damage when you can hit is that there is less density of structure between you and the important bits you want to hit hard. For instance to hit the pilot from 6 position there are more structures in between the shooter and target. I don't know how HTC models these but there are definitely more from that angle.
On the other hand, doing a 90 degree deflection against the a/c planform, all bullets can directly hit the vulnerable bits without having to travel through other structures.
Just a thought. . .
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In dead 6 shots, due to the scatter, a lot of the bullets are very near misses. Not all hits produce a hit sprite so it is hard to see since the max number of sprites is already showing. When you hit a larger surface all bullets will hit even with some scatter.
However, the most important aspect is how planes die in AH: you need to break a wing/tail, set fire to the engine or kill the pilot. When you shoot from dead 6 the parts that are most likely to take the damage are control surfaces: flaps, elevators, ailerons, rudder. They will soak up the damage and even if destroyed, the plane is still flying. You are much less likely to hit any of the critical components mentioned above. In top plane shots everything critical is exposed. If you fly the twin engine fighters, one of the more useful things you will learn is how much more survivable the plane is if you roll the plane to take the hits on the side instead of the very large top.
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If you fly the twin engine fighters, one of the more useful things you will learn is how much more survivable the plane is if you roll the plane to take the hits on the side instead of the very large top.
That is good advice no matter what you happen to be flying at the moment.
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If you fly the twin engine fighters, one of the more useful things you will learn is how much more survivable the plane is if you roll the plane to take the hits on the side instead of the very large top.
Like Del pointed out, that is good advice no matter what plane you happen to be in. However, in the P-38, it's very important to present as low as a profile as possible and that's why it's important to present the side profile as much as possible when being shot at. Many think that because the P-38 is rather large for a fighter that its side profile must be as large but in reality the Lightning had the slimmest profile of any US fighter of the time.
ack-ack
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Like Del pointed out, that is good advice no matter what plane you happen to be in. However, in the P-38, it's very important to present as low as a profile as possible and that's why it's important to present the side profile as much as possible when being shot at. Many think that because the P-38 is rather large for a fighter that its side profile must be as large but in reality the Lightning had the slimmest profile of any US fighter of the time.
ack-ack
Definitely. I generally find the P38 is pretty much the toughest plane in the game to hit from dead six as well.
Wiley.
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Would the stress on the airframe during scissors add to the ease of getting the wing to come off from a crossing shot versus a dead-six shot on a barely manuvering plane?
No, that's not modeled. Structural parts can carry the same load up until the point they take enough damage to break.
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Another fact is that from dead 6 the energy is reduced due to the target flying away from the direction of the round. In head on shots the energy is increased. So in deflections the round is often more damaging than dead 6 shots. Again, I could be wrong but that is how I understood the game to be modelled.
You understand correctly more or less, but I don't believe the difference between a 6 shot and a 90 degree shot would be a huge difference in energy delivered to the target.
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1) Does this have something to do with how damage is modeled in the game, i.e. hits on a wider area of wing surface are actually more effective than hits in a single rear area?
2) Is the cockpit more vulnerable in a straight 6 shot than I think, and I should be aiming there rather than wing roots?
3) Is pilot head postion actually factored into the damage model? (In other words, does looking back make you more likely to be brainboxed rather than hunkering down behind your pilot armor?)
4) What other factors might be at play here?
Thanks for any feedback.
:salute
1) I think some of this is a general lack of depth perception when you're firing on the rear profile of a plane. In my experience when reviewing films, what looks like concentrated hits from a 6 shot, are actually quite dispersed along the surfaces of the plane.
2) I've also reviewed films of pilot wounds and found that what you think was a dead 6 shot was in reality a high 6 shot and there was a valid unobstructed shot on the cockpit.
3) no
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Murdr is back from the abyss! :D