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General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Serenity on June 22, 2011, 11:03:38 PM

Title: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 22, 2011, 11:03:38 PM
Well, I've decided for my birthday/christmas gift to myself, I'm going to build a nice little desktop. I've done a whole bunch of google research, and decided on the the following parts. Now I was hoping for some feedback on the system before I pull the trigger, i.e. some parts that maybe aren't compatible in some way that I haven't noticed, or some other area in which I fall short. My goal here was to build a gaming computer for around $600-700 NOW, that I could upgrade over the next three years to keep up to date. So basically, I'm looking more for a solid platform to upgrade later rather than the best there is right now. That's part of the reason I have not selected a graphics card. I knew before the build I wanted AMD/ATI. Why? Well, I heard a lot of folks say to go with that combination when I bought my last desktop, I stuck with them for my laptop, so why switch it up now. So, here's what I'm looking at:


CPU:

AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 3.5 Ghz AM3 socket         $149.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103894

Motherboard:

ASRock 4 memory slots, 2 PCIe, onboard Radeon 4250         $99.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157243

PSU:

630 Watt ATX PSU, 1x135mm fan with LED            $49.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152035

RAM:

2GB DDR3 SDRAM                        $19.99 x2
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231395

DVD Drive:

DVD Drive                           $16.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827118031

Hard Drive:

500GB 7200RPM Seagate HD                  $39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148701

for a case, I'm trying to decide between the following two:


Raidmax Tornado Blue                     $39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811156223

Xion AXP 100                           $49.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811208027


So, any feedback right so far?
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: ebfd11 on June 22, 2011, 11:52:21 PM
Serenity,
  Nice combo there but if I were you I would go a little more on the case and get a bottom mounted PSU case like this one

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811103030  54.99

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144266  64.99

The reason to go bottom mount is heat rises and these have good airflow out of the top, and it will be easier to hide the wires.

LawnDart
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 23, 2011, 12:01:14 AM
Serenity,
  Nice combo there but if I were you I would go a little more on the case and get a bottom mounted PSU case like this one

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811103030  54.99

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144266  64.99

The reason to go bottom mount is heat rises and these have good airflow out of the top, and it will be easier to hide the wires.

LawnDart

Alright, that works for me!
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: 1701E on June 23, 2011, 12:06:19 AM
I'd suggest a better brand PSU.  Corsair, OCZ, Seasonic, or if you can find them PC P&C are typically good.

HDD is a debatable topic, but personally (key word), I'd choose Western Digital over Seagate.

As for RAM, it's hardly an issue, but "officially" supported RAM from g skill for the Board is: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231275&Tpk=F3-10666CL8D-4GBRM    or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231317&Tpk=F3-10666CL8D-4GBECO

Aside from that it looks fine.  The case is going to be a personal choice, but make sure it has adequate airflow (minimum of 2x 120mms or 1x 120 & 2x 80mm).
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 23, 2011, 12:12:33 AM
I'd suggest a better brand PSU.  Corsair, OCZ, Seasonic, or if you can find them PC P&C are typically good.

HDD is a debatable topic, but personally (key word), I'd choose Western Digital over Seagate.

As for RAM, it's hardly an issue, but "officially" supported RAM from g skill for the Board is: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231275&Tpk=F3-10666CL8D-4GBRM    or
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231317&Tpk=F3-10666CL8D-4GBECO

Aside from that it looks fine.  The case is going to be a personal choice, but make sure it has adequate airflow (minimum of 2x 120mms or 1x 120 & 2x 80mm).

Any particular reason on the PSU? Is it just that a better known brand is more likely to work well?

As far as the HDD, I plan on using my current Western Digital external HDD for the most part, so I was going cheap there.

Alright, I'll go with that RAM instead.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: guncrasher on June 23, 2011, 02:06:22 AM
serenity the power supply will be decided by the video card you want to get now.  630w may be barely the minimum for some of what used to be higher end cards but now are selling for 200 bucks.

-get at least 4 gigs of ram.

-not sure about amd but with intel it's always better to get your own cpu fan.

-what os are you going to be using?

semp
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Bino on June 23, 2011, 05:15:47 AM
Any particular reason on the PSU? Is it just that a better known brand is more likely to work well?
...

A solid, reliable PSU is like the foundation of the system.  All kinds of oddball behavior can happen if the power is not smooth and steady.  Based on several comments in here by Skuzzy, when I built my machine last year I went with a Seasonic 750 watt PSU. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151087) 
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: ebfd11 on June 23, 2011, 08:58:04 AM
Serenity

 Here is a good combo deal based on what you were looking for

1x    Thermaltake Element G VL10001W2Z Black ATX Mid Tower Computer Case (Model:VL10001W2Z)

   $119.99
1x    ASUS M4A88T-V EVO/USB3 AM3 AMD 880G USB 3.0 HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard (Model:M4A88T-V EVO/USB3)

   $114.99
1x    RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-730SS 730W ATX12V V2.2/ EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Modular Modular LED Power Supply (Model:RX-730SS)

   $59.99
1x    AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition Thuban 3.2GHz Socket AM3 125W Six-Core Desktop Processor HDT90ZFBGRBOX (Model:HDT90ZFBGRBOX)

   $179.99
1x    G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL (Model:F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL)

   $45.99
1x    Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive (Model:ST31000524AS)

   $59.99
1x    LITE-ON DVD Burner - Bulk Black SATA Model iHAS124-04 (Model:iHAS124-04)

   $18.99

Combined Total:    $599.93
Combo Discounts:    -$53.94
Combo Price:    $545.99

Link to actual combo deal http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.661414

and you might be avle to get a decent vid card

SAPPHIRE 100327L Radeon HD 6750 1GB  105.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102939

total 651.98

With that set up you will be able to upgrade at a later date and it is all the standards you are looking for.

LawnDart
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Noir on June 23, 2011, 09:29:10 AM
I'm running a comparable setup with a seasonic 650W PSU with no issues. Actually with a sapphire radeon 5770 and a Noctua NH-D14 on top of the CPU, the computer is so quiet I can't even know if it's on or off  :aok
For the CPU a lower core count with a superior frequency is going to give better results in AH, so the X4 > X6.

Don't expect to be able to upgrade the CPU tho.

Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Krusty on June 23, 2011, 09:31:23 AM
Guncrasher, Intel has been running cooler and overclocking better on stock air cooling than AMD has for many years now.

If you want to go all-out custom cooling is fine, but there's nothing wrong with Intel stock heatsinks. I've been using them for a while, personally.


EDIT: Serenity, if you're looking to upgrade down the road, I think maybe Intel is the way to go. These new sandy bridge cores are awesomely powerful for very cheap and are only going to get better as the prices drop in a couple years. Get an LGA 1155 socket motherboard and you can get a dual-core G620T for $80 USD (as a placeholder until upgrade) or you can go i5 2300 quad-core for a mere $184 USD.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Noir on June 23, 2011, 10:00:24 AM

EDIT: Serenity, if you're looking to upgrade down the road, I think maybe Intel is the way to go. These new sandy bridge cores are awesomely powerful for very cheap and are only going to get better as the prices drop in a couple years. Get an LGA 1155 socket motherboard and you can get a dual-core G620T for $80 USD (as a placeholder until upgrade) or you can go i5 2300 quad-core for a mere $184 USD.

Sounds like a plan but the G620T is 50% slower than a X4 970 on average. If you want a cpu upgrade it may be the only choice tho.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 23, 2011, 12:37:27 PM
Serenity

 Here is a good combo deal based on what you were looking for

1x    Thermaltake Element G VL10001W2Z Black ATX Mid Tower Computer Case (Model:VL10001W2Z)

   $119.99
1x    ASUS M4A88T-V EVO/USB3 AM3 AMD 880G USB 3.0 HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard (Model:M4A88T-V EVO/USB3)

   $114.99
1x    RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-730SS 730W ATX12V V2.2/ EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Modular Modular LED Power Supply (Model:RX-730SS)

   $59.99
1x    AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition Thuban 3.2GHz Socket AM3 125W Six-Core Desktop Processor HDT90ZFBGRBOX (Model:HDT90ZFBGRBOX)

   $179.99
1x    G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL (Model:F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL)

   $45.99
1x    Seagate Barracuda ST31000524AS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive (Model:ST31000524AS)

   $59.99
1x    LITE-ON DVD Burner - Bulk Black SATA Model iHAS124-04 (Model:iHAS124-04)

   $18.99

Combined Total:    $599.93
Combo Discounts:    -$53.94
Combo Price:    $545.99

Link to actual combo deal http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.661414

and you might be avle to get a decent vid card

SAPPHIRE 100327L Radeon HD 6750 1GB  105.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102939

total 651.98

With that set up you will be able to upgrade at a later date and it is all the standards you are looking for.

LawnDart

Hmm... I feel like that's a lot more money spent on the case, HDD, and PSU than I really want to be spending. This is a budget gaming build at the moment, to the point where I am choosing between getting a new computer and eating next month, lol. What is the real gain between what you posted and my original choices?

serenity the power supply will be decided by the video card you want to get now.  630w may be barely the minimum for some of what used to be higher end cards but now are selling for 200 bucks.

-get at least 4 gigs of ram.

-not sure about amd but with intel it's always better to get your own cpu fan.

-what os are you going to be using?

semp

So what should I be looking for in wattage nowadays? I went for the 630 because the last time I bought a PSU 600W was "plenty".

Yeah, I'm getting 4GB as a minimum.

OS will be Windows 7 as I already have a copy.

Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Spikes on June 23, 2011, 12:44:52 PM
Guncrasher, Intel has been running cooler and overclocking better on stock air cooling than AMD has for many years now.

If you want to go all-out custom cooling is fine, but there's nothing wrong with Intel stock heatsinks. I've been using them for a while, personally.


EDIT: Serenity, if you're looking to upgrade down the road, I think maybe Intel is the way to go. These new sandy bridge cores are awesomely powerful for very cheap and are only going to get better as the prices drop in a couple years. Get an LGA 1155 socket motherboard and you can get a dual-core G620T for $80 USD (as a placeholder until upgrade) or you can go i5 2300 quad-core for a mere $184 USD.
All out custom cooling? An aftermarket CPU H/S is always better than Intels, and it's not "all out".
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Krusty on June 23, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Not arguing "better" but you're not even close to pushing it with the stock. Intel's 2 more recent generations of CPUs have put out surprisingly minimal amounts of heat, to the point of pushing 3.8GHz overclocks on stock heatsinks with no problems.

It's like saying a Lamborghini is better than a Ferrari, when the speed limits mean neither one will make a difference. Only reason to get custom heatsinks on Intel Conroe or later CPUs is if you're doing full-out overclocking rigs. Otherwise you'll never overheat anyways, so why bother?
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Krusty on June 23, 2011, 01:08:37 PM
Hmm... I feel like that's a lot more money spent on the case, HDD, and PSU than I really want to be spending. This is a budget gaming build at the moment,

I ran into the same problem. You can skimp on the case, definitely. I bought a cheap ATX for about $30 new. It worked okay. It had no LEDs, no PSU, no side window (it did have a side vent though), and it lasted me quite a long time.

However your HDD price there is a bit of a steal, doubt you'll find much better but definitely shop around. I'm running a Samsung 1TB and it's a champ so far.

Then there's the PSU. The problem here is there's a minimum amount you want to spend. You CAN get a $5 PSU. I did it before. Once. Never again. The PSU regulates spikes to your system, prevents damage to components, keeps the voltage at prescribed levels. Even a small drop can have big underlying issues. I recall once some years back my $5 PSU was undervolting the motherboard, meaning I was disconnected from Aces High every 30 minutes because the onboard LAN didn't have enough power to keep going. You really don't want to drop below $70-$80, and generally you spend about $100. I don't think your choice there is too bad, personally. I don't think you can get too much of a better deal. If you want to save, though, look for the same model but without modular cables. They're usually more expensive by about $15 or so, from memory.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Tigger29 on June 23, 2011, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: Serenity
CPU:
AMD Phenom II X4 Quad Core 3.5 Ghz AM3 socket         $149.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103894

Personally I prefer Intel over AMD, but AMD does seem to have the 'best bang for the buck' these days.  You'll be fine with a Phenom.

Quote from: Serenity
Motherboard:
ASRock 4 memory slots, 2 PCIe, onboard Radeon 4250         $99.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157243

I like the ASRock brand.  I've had a lot of luck with it.  Looks like a decent board but personally I'd be looking for something with no onboard video but that should be fine for you.

Quote from: Serenity
PSU:
630 Watt ATX PSU, 1x135mm fan with LED            $49.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152035

I'm with the other on this.  Get a good brand of power supply.  "No-names" in the higher wattage power supplies tend to be cheap, inconsistent, and live very short lives.  I built my g/f's system from a combination deal a while back and it came with a "logisys" 600W power supply.  I felt that would be just fine for her extreme gaming needs (which consists of Mafia2 and Sims3).  Turns out I was wrong.  She kept experiencing crashes, lockups and other abnormalities on a regular basis.  I ended up installing a Corsair 500W in its place and it has been rock solid ever sense.  Personally I'd have to recommend Seasonic though.  I have built 6 systems now (4 with Seasonics and 2 with Corsairs that had Seasonic guts - keep in mind the new Corsair power supplies are *NOT* Seasonic now).  Not one single problem out of the six.

Quote from: Serenity
RAM:
2GB DDR3 SDRAM                        $19.99 x2
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231395

Why only 4GB?  I think it would be hard to justify a new build these days without at least 8GB, but with that being said my own computer only has 4GB and I never even come close to needing it all.

Quote from: Serenity
DVD Drive:
DVD Drive                           $16.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827118031

I'm with you there.  DVD burners are so cheap I see no need to get anything more expensive, and I especially see no need to go Bluray on a computer unless it's being used as a HTPC.


Quote from: Serenity
Hard Drive:
500GB 7200RPM Seagate HD                  $39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148701

I'm a WD guy personally but I really don't think there's not much of a difference these days.  Unless you like to download music or movies, 500GB should be plenty.  Don't let people talk you into a SSD.  Sure it's a lot faster and can boot Windows in a matter of a couple seconds but in the whole scheme of things it really helps little to improve your computing experience.  Maybe when the price comes down low enough to compete with normal hard drives I'd consider it but I can't justify the cost just yet.  I did splurge on a Velociraptor a couple of years ago and yes it's considerably faster than normal hard drives but not enough to make a huge impact on performance.  Personally I wish I had put that money into a better video card instead.

Quote from: Serenity
for a case, I'm trying to decide between the following two:
Raidmax Tornado Blue                     $39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811156223
Xion AXP 100                           $49.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811208027

I really don't think the case matters that much.  I got lucky and found a heck of a deal on a NZXT case... This one actually:  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146059&cm_re=nzxt-_-11-146-059-_-Product (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146059&cm_re=nzxt-_-11-146-059-_-Product) and I got it on clearance for $30 with free shipping!  It replaced an el-cheapo case and I really like it!  I love how it has a couple of small blue lights in the front but the whole thing isn't too flashy.  It has all kinds of room and a bottom mounted power supply.

I spent another $20 in fans for 2 140mm fans on top and one 120mm fan on the side which give me plenty of airflow!  Also the big fans are MUCH quieter than the small ones because they don't have to spin as fast to move the same air.  This results in a very quiet system.

The only drawback to this specific case is the front screens get dirty real easy (I keep it near the floor) but a quick pass with the handheld vacuum attachment cleans it all up real fast so maybe it's not such a drawback afterall!  At least the crap is getting caught in the screens and not inside the case!

Yes you're definitely going to need a video card.  I would recommend AT LEAST a 5770 video card.  I would recommend you go with a less expensive processor and a 5770 INSTEAD of the processor you have listed and the onboard video (if you had to choose).  I built a budget gaming system for a squaddie using the AMD Regor processor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103903 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103903), a 5770 video card, a cheapo motherboard and case, a seasonic power supply, DVD burner, 4GB of ram and even a decent headset for under $500.  He's extremely happy and has to try REALLY HARD to see any less than 60FPS in aces high... and this is with all settings maxed!
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Krusty on June 23, 2011, 04:08:34 PM
I just checked the newegg link for that PSU. Definitely find something else. About HALF the review are DOA or "It died in 2 months" type comments. Avoid like the plague!
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 23, 2011, 08:03:28 PM
I just checked the newegg link for that PSU. Definitely find something else. About HALF the review are DOA or "It died in 2 months" type comments. Avoid like the plague!

Roger, I'll track down another PSU.

As for the onboard graphics, when I was comparing motherboards, that seemed to be the best motherboard I could find, and at a good price, and just happened to have the onboard graphics.

As far as why only 4GB, I wasn't joking when I said I'm deciding between a new computer and eating next month. My laptop is hanging on by a thread, and I need to replace it. Thats the only reason I'm looking into a new computer, and I'm building rather than buying so I can get a budget PC right now, and if things get a bit better for me later on, I can buy one or two parts to upgrade rather than a whole new system.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 23, 2011, 08:10:45 PM
Okay, looking at PSUs, what kind of wattage should I be looking for, and what are the name brands that I should consider acceptable?
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: cattb on June 23, 2011, 08:26:14 PM
I would go single rail if you plan on running just 1 video card. You could also google power supply reviews and do some of your own research, just my 2.5 cents.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Spikes on June 23, 2011, 08:41:35 PM
Depends on the card but usually 700W is sufficient for a normal build. I run 2 video cards on a 600W.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Krusty on June 23, 2011, 10:53:50 PM
Heck, he should be able to get by on that setup with a 550W or 600W, I would think. That is unless the specs for the 6750 say it needs more power, which I doubt. Most single CPU, single GPU, systems on the upper middle range can run at 400W as long as it's a good solid 400. You hedge your bets by going a little higher, so that in case the manufacturer under-volts or over-sells the product you can still get the job done.

Might I suggest:

Antec 520W, $54, good reviews for the most part. Need to buy your own power cord (or you may have one lying around)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=17-371-030&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=10&PurchaseMark=&SelectedRating=-1&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&IsFeedbackTab=true&Page=3


There are tons of other options, but amongst the newegg choices that seems to be the budget PSU I'd aim for. You can go $15 more and see some other options that don't look too shabby, either.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Tigger29 on June 23, 2011, 11:29:15 PM
I wasn't joking when I said I'm deciding between a new computer and eating next month.

So your budget is so tight that that you can't afford an extra 4 gb of ram, yet you are choosing a $150 processor over a $60 one that runs Aces High just fine??  It baffles the mind.

The system I built for my squaddie included a Seasonic power supply *AND* an ATI 5770 video card and came complete except for keyboard, mouse, monitor, and operating system for under $500 (all of which were transferred from his old system).  If money really is that tight then why not do the same?
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: Serenity on June 23, 2011, 11:31:01 PM
So your budget is so tight that that you can't afford an extra 4 gb of ram, yet you are choosing a $150 processor over a $60 one that runs Aces High just fine??  It baffles the mind.

The system I built for my squaddie included a Seasonic power supply *AND* an ATI 5770 video card and came complete except for keyboard, mouse, monitor, and operating system for under $500 (all of which were transferred from his old system).  If money really is that tight then why not do the same?

Because if I get a good processor now, if I stumble on an extra $20 later I can just slap in some more RAM, whereas, from what I understand, upgrading the processor is a bit more intricate.
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: MoJoRiZn on June 24, 2011, 12:50:36 AM
good PSU brands  Seasonic, PC Power and Cooling, Corsair, Thermaltake, OCZ.  skuzzy recommends a single 12v rail psu rather than a psu with 2 or more 12v rails. they are better, more stable and have cleaner power most times

here is a help guide article for anyone building or upgrading their pc

http://www.pcworld.com/article/229732/5_pc_upgrades_almost_everyone_does_wrong_and_how_to_do_them_right.html


Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: guncrasher on June 24, 2011, 02:07:16 AM
have you taken a look here, some really good systems within you price.

http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/category/amd_pc/

semp
Title: Re: Computer Build Help
Post by: cattb on June 24, 2011, 09:00:33 PM
You will be fine witrh 4 gig of RAM, heck before I upgraded couple years ago to 4 gig RAM I did not allways utilize my 2 gig RAM. I think it really depends on the type of use you will be using your computer for.
I have to bet the Phenom 555 0r 560 work fine for a budget system.

A budget system should be fine with a 500 watt PSU. Single rail decent power supply.