Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oakranger on June 25, 2011, 10:45:41 PM
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Got this from another fourm. Intresting reading but i can agree on all of it. Enjoy!
This theory is being touted as the latest controversial bit of revisionism - below is the Daily Telegraph's report on it:
The Battle of Britain was not won by the RAF but by the Royal Navy, military historians have concluded, provoking outrage among the war's surviving fighter pilots.
Challenging the "myth" that Spitfires and Hurricanes held off the German invaders in 1940, the monthly magazine History Today has concluded that it was the might of the Navy that stood between Britain and Nazi occupation.
advertisementThe view is backed by three leading academics who are senior military historians at the Joint Service Command Staff College teaching the future admirals, generals and air marshals.
They contend that the sheer numbers of destroyers and battleships in the Channel would have obliterated any invasion fleet even if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain.
The idea that a "handful of heroes saved these islands from invasion" was nothing more than a "perpetuation of a glorious myth," the article suggests.
"Many still prefer to believe that in the course of that summer a few hundred outnumbered young men so outfought a superior enemy as solely to prevent a certain invasion of Britain. Almost none of which is true," reports Brian James, the author.
Dr Andrew Gordon, the head of maritime history at the staff college, said it was "hogwash" to suggest that Germany failed to invade in 1940 "because of what was done by the phenomenally brave and skilled young men of Fighter Command".
"The Germans stayed away because while the Royal Navy existed they had not a hope in hell of capturing these islands. The Navy had ships in sufficient numbers to have overwhelmed any invasion fleet - destroyers' speed alone would have swamped the barges by their wash."
Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".
While admitting it was an "extremely sensitive subject", Dr Christina Goulter, the air warfare historian, supported the argument. "While it would be wrong to deny the contribution of Fighter Command, I agree largely that it was the Navy that held the Germans from invading," she said.
"As the German general Jodl put it, so long as the British Navy existed, an invasion would be to send 'my troops into a mincing machine'." Any challenge to the long-held theory that the 2,600 pilots of Fighter Command defeated the might of Germany would be subject to "more than a modicum of hostility", she added.
The Battle of Britain was "a sacrosanct event" for the RAF, like Waterloo for the Army and Trafalgar for the Navy.
It inspired Churchill to say: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."
Although six destroyers were lost during the evacuation of Dunkirk in May 1940 this was due to them being stationary as they picked up troops.
Tackling capital ships would have been an even greater task because at the time the Luftwaffe, unlike the Japanese during the destruction of the fleet at Singapore, did not have armour-piercing bombs, the article says.
It has been argued that German minefields strung across the Dover Straits would have prevented the Home Fleet, based at Scapa Flow, from destroying slow troop barges.
But Dr Gordon disputed this saying that Britain had 52 minesweepers and 16 minesweeping trawlers arrayed against four German minelayers.
The disparity between the navies was huge with Britain having 36 destroyers close by and a similar number two days away. The Navy also had five capital ships on hand, whereas the Kriegsmarine had lost or had damaged their battleships.
"Anyway, in an emergency, the Royal Navy steams straight through minefields as they did when pursuing the Scharnhorst," Dr Gordon said. "They have a drill, following line astern. 'Each ship can sweep one mine' is the rather grim joke."
Can you imagine the RN's targets? An invasion fleet of Rhine barges, moving at about two knots over the water, with a freeboard of a few feet. . . an absolute field day for our navy. So that was the nightmare for the German navy. They knew it just couldn't happen."
Prof Gary Sheffield, the JSCSC's leading land warfare historian, said while some Germans might have got ashore it would have been near impossible for them to be re-supplied with the Navy so close by.
The article also argues that while the RAF had 644 fighters to the Luftwaffe's 725 at the beginning of the battle by October 1940 Britain was far out-producing the enemy.
It also said that after the defeat in France in early 1940 it was vital for Britain to have a victory to reassure the public it was winning the war and the RAF fighter pilots were an obvious choice. "In 1940, the total acceptance of the story's simple broad-brush strokes was very necessary," the historian Richard Overy said.
Dr Gordon added: "The RAF's was a substitute victory - a substitute for the certain victory over Sealion, had the Germans been mad enough to attempt invasion."
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Agreed to an extent, but we will never know.
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Makes sense.
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actually the raf did win it by denying the nazis air superiority. ir the air war had been won the british would have been dispached in the same manner we got the japanese navy (subs and planes) then the germans could invade. that is why the allies worked so hard on the luftwaffe before normandy otherwise no invsion would be possible. no war has been won since ww1 without air supiority.
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Sounds like bollocks to me. If the RAF went down the LW would've bombed the snot out of the british ports, fuel supplies etc. It would've been a domino effect.
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Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".
Try telling that to the men of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.
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Like to see those DDs stop Paratroops.....the RAF kept em from takin the skies over Britain. which I think in turn stopped the invasion idea cold.
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It was my understanding that Britian was actually losing the battle until one night Berlin was accidental bombed. This threw Hitler into a furry. He ordered Goering to start bombing British cities. This switch from targeting the British RAF to the cities gave the British time to build back up the forces needed to successfully defend the island.
Also the 109's had something like 20 minutes time to fight before they had to brake off and RTB. When a German was shot down, he was out of the fight for good, but a British pilot would be soon back in the air.
Anyway, this may or may not have been the case.
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Actually, for political reasons Hitler ordered that the Luftwaffe avoid British population centers. One night a lost bomber crew accidentally bombed a city (I don't think it was London, but can't remember off-hand which city it was). In retaliation the RAF bombed Berlin, which set off Hitler.
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Try telling that to the men of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.
Was thinking the exact same thing, great minds :D
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The RAF used the Navy, or at least the merchant Navy as a target in the early stages of the war. Over the channel itself, the air superiority was so much in favor of the Germans (particularly because fuel wasn't as much an issue) that the Brits all but stopped defending the shipping in the channel.
The standard Navy wasn't much more than a target for aircraft, I guess Billy Mitchell was right.
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The RAF won the battle because it was the RAF that fought the battle. The RN's existence made the battle essentially unwinable for the Germans though. I recall hearing that when the battle is gamed out, even if the Luftwaffe "defeats" RAF Fighter Command, the remaining Spits and Hurris are then pulled back out of Luftwaffe range. When the invasion happens the RN, covered by the remaining fighters of the RAF, slams the door shut within 24 hours of landing. Within two weeks of landing the British are inventorying their new "Made in Germany" equipment as the Germans, out of food and fuel, are forced to surrender. Yes, the RN takes losses, but not nearly enough to stop it from accomplishing its task. What happens to the German troops caught in the channel on the barges by battleships doesn't even bear thinking about.
Try telling that to the men of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.
That was the Japanese, not the Germans. The Japanese were far, far better trained for attacks against ships. In the early part of the war Vals had a 70+% hit rate on ships. Ju87s had less than half of that at Dunkirk. If the Luftwaffe were able to "borrow" the Imperial Japanese Navy's bomber pilots and crews it might be able stop the Royal Navy.
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It was my understanding that Britian was actually losing the battle until one night Berlin was accidental bombed. This threw Hitler into a furry. He ordered Goering to start bombing British cities. This switch from targeting the British RAF to the cities gave the British time to build back up the forces needed to successfully defend the island.
Also the 109's had something like 20 minutes time to fight before they had to brake off and RTB. When a German was shot down, he was out of the fight for good, but a British pilot would be soon back in the air.
Anyway, this may or may not have been the case.
I did not know that Berlin was accidentally bombed by the Brits. I thought it was the Lufft that accidentally bombed London so Brite return the favore. That is when Hitler order Goering to start bombing Cities.
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Actually, for political reasons Hitler ordered that the Luftwaffe avoid British population centers. One night a lost bomber crew accidentally bombed a city (I don't think it was London, but can't remember off-hand which city it was). In retaliation the RAF bombed Berlin, which set off Hitler.
yup it was this. And IIRC the reason the LW dropped on a brit city (might've been london) was that the RAF were jamming up the radio beacons the LW were using for direction finding/dropping (the bombers would follow 1 beacon as a path, when they intersected a second beacon they'd drop).
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nope British bombed German city (not sure which one) they apologize, but next couple of days they bombed another German city by accident again, which set off the germane and they started bombing British cities. which was a good thing because it stopped the planes from bombing the airfields. so they could take off and defend England.
main thing is that not just the RAF or the e royal navy defeated the Germans but it was a combination of both. if it hadnt been a navy they would have invaded, I am pretty sure the af would not have stopped all the ships. otoh if there wasnt a navy to keep some bombs and ships busy there would have been more bombs over England.
semp
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On one hand it sounds almost plausible. Then you have to think, why didn't the Brits put their ships in the channel. Because the Luftwaffe would be all over the ship and put them on the bottom. The idea that the Germans didn't have armor piercing bombs is silly. They were allies with the Japanese who used the shells from their battleships as armor piercing bombs. No reason the Germans couldn't do the same thing.
This bit of revisionist history is a lame attempt to salvage the reputation of the Royal Navy, which does not need rescuing.
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This has been discussed in great detail between historians. Luckily, I've been privileged to be a part of these discussions, I've learned a ton of information that simply can not be expressed when reading books and other original sources.
It has already been mentioned that *if* the Germans had bested the RAF, the remaining RAF aircraft would have been put far beyond the reach of the Lw while waiting for their chance to go on the offensive vs German supply lines, etc. The RN would have been able, probably, to fend off any German attempt to land or at minimum "slam the door shut" as someone said earlier.
The Germans would have lost either way, they didn't have the Navy nor the range in the air to fully commit to conquering the UK.
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Wouldn't the LW hamer the hell out of the RN once air superiority was gained? After a couple of weeks , probably several sorties a day, of bombing only ships, LW airmen would have become experts, even better than IJN.
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Got this from another fourm. Intresting reading but i can agree on all of it. Enjoy!
This theory is being touted as the latest controversial bit of revisionism - below is the Daily Telegraph's report on it:
I didn't bother reading after: "Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack"."
The RN would've been obliterated by the LW in the channel as it would've had no air support (RAF being eliminated by that point).
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I don't think this is new. I seem to remember commenting on it a few years ago. While there's some truth in it, the tone of it seems to belittle the efforts of the RAF. The fact of the matter is that the RN didn't fight the battle. The RAF did. If the RAF had been neutralised and an invasion launched then the RN would have it's day. Any attempt to give the RN credit is simply revisionism.
As for the RN defeating the invasion, well maybe but no one mentioned U-Boats who surely have wreaked havoc among the ships in the narrow English channel. Add concentrated air attacks from the Luftwaffe and even shore artillery and it would be bloody. Maybe the Stuka pilots weren't as good as the Japanese but they would learn fast and in any case it would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Hitler was never all that keen on invading Britain anyway, so maybe he would be satisfied with defeating the RAF. But my opinion is that in fact the RAF would never been beaten even with better tactics from the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe would simply have been burned out if they continued to maintain the level of pressure they did. Meanwhile the RAF were better organised and had the home advantage.
No the RAF won the battle, the RN were the back up on this occasion. Any attempt to revise that history is ridiculous.
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Depending on the ports of departure, it would take the Germans 1 to 3 days to cross the Channel to the invasion beaches. The Germans would have a very hard time bombing at night > what was enemy and what was friendly. Even if some 30-40 destroyers and light cruisers had been sunk by the LW, the invasion fleet would have been decimated. Such a defeat would have had a long lasting morale issues for the Germans.
Just about every time a U-boat that tried to operate in the Channel it was sunk.
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nope British bombed German city (not sure which one) they apologize, but next couple of days they bombed another German city by accident again, which set off the germane and they started bombing British cities. which was a good thing because it stopped the planes from bombing the airfields. so they could take off and defend England.
Definitely not the version printed in the books I own, though who knows with things being declassified all the time now.
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Got this from another fourm. Intresting reading but i can agree on all of it. Enjoy!
This theory is being touted as the latest controversial bit of revisionism - below is the Daily Telegraph's report on it:
teamwork is how they won....
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teamwork is how they won....
How much did the RN got involved with BoB? Really never hear anything about it.
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How much did the RN got involved with BoB? Really never hear anything about it.
i honestly thought that the royal navy was spread out too thin in the atlantic to get involved at home....i could be wrong though
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i honestly thought that the royal navy was spread out too thin in the atlantic to get involved at home....i could be wrong though
I was thinking of the same. That statement what should debunk the whole argument that RN won the BoB.
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I was thinking of the same. That statement what should debunk the whole argument that RN won the BoB.
now that i think of it.....look up operation cerberus. it was in 41, but if the royal navey were home, it would've been them attacking the fleet int he channel.
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Neither the Royal Navy nor the Royal Air Force would have been capable of stopping a German invasion on their own. Without the Royal Navy, the Germans would have launched an amphibious assault on the British coast and plowed all the way through. Without the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy would have been helpless to stop their ships from being sunk from the air.
Furthermore, both would have been useless in the case of a successful invasion without any infantry, artillery or armor. The idea that any one branch of the military could win a war singlehandedly is absurd. World War II, and all wars afterwards, were and are focused on combined arms combat. Each arm is very powerful, but only if supported by all the other arms.
-Penguin
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Neither the Royal Navy nor the Royal Air Force would have been capable of stopping a German invasion on their own. Without the Royal Navy, the Germans would have launched an amphibious assault on the British coast and plowed all the way through. Without the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy would have been helpless to stop their ships from being sunk from the air.
Furthermore, both would have been useless in the case of a successful invasion without any infantry, artillery or armor. The idea that any one branch of the military could win a war singlehandedly is absurd. World War II, and all wars afterwards, were and are focused on combined arms combat. Each arm is very powerful, but only if supported by all the other arms.
-Penguin
and all of the above would've been useless, and not possible without the convoys from America.
i know you guys were waiting for someone to say it.....so it's said.
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I don't think that it would have been utterly useless, but suffice it to say that the British would have been in a difficult position without those convoys. The amount of teamwork that the Allied Powers displayed was astonishing, Russia and Britain were a great help in holding off Germany and providing a launching point for the second part of the pincer movement. With any foresight, this war won't be fought again.
-Penguin
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and all of the above would've been useless, and not possible without the convoys from America.
i know you guys were waiting for someone to say it.....so it's said.
Let's keep it as we know it. The battle was fought and won in the air by RAF and the battle of the Alantic was fought and won by RN, with some assistant of RN.
I don't think that it would have been utterly useless, but suffice it to say that the British would have been in a difficult position without those convoys. The amount of teamwork that the Allied Powers displayed was astonishing, Russia and Britain were a great help in holding off Germany and providing a launching point for the second part of the pincer movement. With any foresight, this war won't be fought again.
-Penguin
It has been talked about before. Even if the Germans launch the invasion, it would have been difficult for them to gain a foothold on British land. As Eisnhowar said, amphibious invasion is nearly impossible. Few have done it, but many have not.
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Let's keep it as we know it. The battle was fought and won in the air by RAF and the battle of the Alantic was fought and won by RN, with some assistant of RN.
It has been talked about before. Even if the Germans launch the invasion, it would have been difficult for them to gain a foothold on British land. As Eisnhowar said, amphibious invasion is nearly impossible. Few have done it, but many have not.
i only say that, as without convoys, and ships escorting those convoys to protect against the uboats, there would've been massive food and fuel shortages.
then in the raf, there were the canadian pilots, the american pilots, polish pilots..........this all combined is how england stayed on her feet.....teamwork.
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i only say that, as without convoys, and ships escorting those convoys to protect against the uboats, there would've been massive food and fuel shortages.
then in the raf, there were the canadian pilots, the american pilots, polish pilots..........this all combined is how england stayed on her feet.....teamwork.
Yes, you are correct about that.
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Everyone knows that the Americans just lent the brits some gas that they didn't need and then showed up late.
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Sounds like bollocks to me. If the RAF went down the LW would've bombed the snot out of the british ports, fuel supplies etc. It would've been a domino effect.
I concur.
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now that i think of it.....look up operation cerberus. it was in 41, but if the royal navey were home, it would've been them attacking the fleet int he channel.
The big ships were at Home > big naval base in northern Scotland. A bit to far away to participate in Cerberus.
Up until the end of May 1940 convoys past the southern tip of Ireland with ports of destination being along the south and west coasts of GB. Just about all the sinkings of merchant ships, and U-boat occurred in Home Waters. After May 1940, the convoys were routed further out into the Atlantic and used the northern route around Ireland. Convoys from American waters did not start til June 1940.
The KM started the war with just over 40 boats at sea. There was ~20 or less boats at sea until April 1941 when the number increased above the 40. see graph
http://www.uboat.net/ops/combat_strength.html
The RN started the war with 184 destroyers.
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I would have to say looking at the loss ratio. I would conclude that Britain lost BoB as they had radar for advanced warning, could choose when and where to fight, could glide back to a friendly airfield, and could be home for tea in minutes.
Total losses of aircraft in the Battle of Britain
Month RAF Luftwaffe
July(from10th) 90 165
August 399 612
September 416 554
October 182 321
Total 1087 1652
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1940 radar did not give an exact location and altitude like todays modern radar.
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1940 radar did not give an exact location and altitude like todays modern radar.
but the spotters that they used when the towers were mostly non-op did give a pretty good approximation from what i've read.
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but the spotters that they used when the towers were mostly non-op did give a pretty good approximation from what i've read.
Did the RN help spot them?
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Did the RN help spot them?
civilians
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Did the RN help spot them?
Little if at all. Brits had civilians as spotters to help the RAF on what is coming (alts, numbers ect.). It was primitive, but effective at best.
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but the spotters that they used when the towers were mostly non-op did give a pretty good approximation from what i've read.
Only one radar station was knocked out for a very short time.
Doesn't help the interceptors much when the enemy a/c are about to 'walk through the door'.
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Only one radar station was knocked out for a very short time.
Doesn't help the interceptors much when the enemy a/c are about to 'walk through the door'.
really? i thought i had read in the past, that pretty much all of them were down, thus the need for the spotters.....and i'm not trying to be a wise arse......i really didn't know that...
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Only one radar station was knocked out for a very short time.
Doesn't help the interceptors much when the enemy a/c are about to 'walk through the door'.
really? i thought i had read in the past, that pretty much all of them were down, thus the need for the spotters.....and i'm not trying to be a wise arse......i really didn't know that...
MiloMorai, where are you getting your info? Most of Brits radar station where put out of action and lettle was done to bring them back to operation. So, Brits formed the British Observer corps. Germans really had no idea of the B.O.C. was the "eye's" for RAF.
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MiloMorai, where are you getting your info? Most of Brits radar station where put out of action and lettle was done to bring them back to operation. So, Brits formed the British Observer corps. Germans really had no idea of the B.O.C. was the "eye's" for RAF.
this is what i had recalled reading.......
if this is wrong, i'd be very interested in reading up on the correct situation from the era. :aok
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nope British bombed German city (not sure which one) they apologize, but next couple of days they bombed another German city by accident again, which set off the germane and they started bombing British cities. which was a good thing because it stopped the planes from bombing the airfields. so they could take off and defend England.
main thing is that not just the RAF or the e royal navy defeated the Germans but it was a combination of both. if it hadnt been a navy they would have invaded, I am pretty sure the af would not have stopped all the ships. otoh if there wasnt a navy to keep some bombs and ships busy there would have been more bombs over England.
semp
SEMP, I am trying to find info on what you told me. There is nothing on British accidentally bombed German city and Germany return to bombed British city. This is what i am reading, "....August 24, a German bomber formation accidentally bombed some non-military targets in London. Churchill's immediate response was to order a reprisal raid on Berlin.
81 twin-engined bombers took off on August 25th with only 29 reached Berlin. This is where Germany abandoned the principal objective from August 1st. September 7, London saw the first heavy "Blitz" raid and continued for the next 57 nights. This gave RAF an opprutunity to recover their losses.
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nope British bombed German city (not sure which one) they apologize, but next couple of days they bombed another German city by accident again, which set off the germane and they started bombing British cities. which was a good thing because it stopped the planes from bombing the airfields. so they could take off and defend England.
main thing is that not just the RAF or the e royal navy defeated the Germans but it was a combination of both. if it hadnt been a navy they would have invaded, I am pretty sure the af would not have stopped all the ships. otoh if there wasnt a navy to keep some bombs and ships busy there would have been more bombs over England.
semp
now see? this is where i read something different yet again.
the germans had resorted to night bombing, as their losses were too heavy in the day time. on one particular mission, the navigusser was off by a couple of degrees....this put him over london. thinking they were over their assigned target, they dropped. this outraged churchil, and now german cities were getting hit, which enraged hitler.......who then ordered englands cities hit.
what del said about this giving the raf time to recoup their losses, and shore up their numbers, is also what iread....it was a break of sorts that they needed.
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MiloMorai, where are you getting your info? Most of Brits radar station where put out of action and lettle was done to bring them back to operation. So, Brits formed the British Observer corps. Germans really had no idea of the B.O.C. was the "eye's" for RAF.
Definitely not from where you got your info. :devil
"During the battle, Chain Home stations — most notably the one at Ventnor, Isle of Wight — were attacked several times between 12 and 18 August 1940. On one occasion a section of the radar chain in Kent, including the Dover CH, was put out of action by a lucky hit on the power grid. However, though the wooden huts housing the radar equipment were damaged, the towers survived."
I didn't know that WW2 started in 1925.
"The Royal Observer Corps (ROC) was a civil defense organization operating in the United Kingdom between 29 October 1925 and 31 December 1995, when the Corps' civilian volunteers were stood down."
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I didn't know that WW2 started in 1925.
Yes, i meant used as a "last ditch defenders"
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The Battle of Britain
The Battle of Britain started officially on 10 June 1940, when the Luftwaffe attacked a convoy of ships off Dover. But the real air war started on 12 August (when the Luftwaffe attacked the RAF), and lasted until 31 October.
At first the Luftwaffe attacked radar stations and airfields. Although the Luftwaffe lost more planes than the RAF, by the 31 August the RAF was at its last gasp – in the previous fortnight the RAF had lost 295 planes destroyed and 170 damaged, 103 pilots killed and 128 wounded. Flying five or more ‘sorties’ a day, the young British fighter pilots (nicknamed ‘Dowding’s chicks’) were becoming exhausted; more importantly, the RAF was not training new pilots as fast the pilots were being killed. The weekend 30-31 August was the worst weekend of the battle for the RAF, with 65 fighters destroyed and 6 of the seven sector stations in the vital south-east Group out of action.
Just as Fighter Command was about to collapse, however, a miracle happened. On 24 August, by accident, some Luftwaffe bombers had dropped their bombs on London. The next few nights, the RAF replied by bombing Berlin. Hitler was angry. On 2 September he ordered his bombers to attack London. On 7 September the Nazi bombing raid was so huge that a false alarm went round the south-east of England: code-word ‘Cromwell’ – invasion imminent. Church bells rang and the Home Guard mobilised. It was not known at the time but one section of coast identified by the Nazis as a landing ground was defended by a Home Guard platoon with just one machine-gun!
Hitler’s decision to stop attacking the RAF gave it time to recover. On 15 September, the Luftwaffe came by day in huge numbers. It expected to sweep the RAF from the skies. But the RAF fought them off. At one point every British plane was in the sky – soon, some would have to come in to refuel and there were no reserves to protect them. But the Luftwaffe, too, was at the limit and – just in time – it turned back.
http://www.johndclare.net/wwii6.htm
The battle begins
The battle began in mid-July and, initially, the Luftwaffe concentrated on attacking shipping in the English Channel and attacking coastal towns and defences. From 12 August, Goering shifted his focus to the destruction of the RAF, attacking airfields and radar bases. Convinced that Fighter Command was now close to defeat, he also tried to force air battles between fighter planes to definitively break British strength.
However, Goering grew frustrated by the large number of British planes that were still fighting off his attacks. On 4 September, the Luftwaffe switched tactics again and, on Hitler's orders, set about destroying London and other major cities.
Eleven days later, on what became known as 'Battle of Britain Day', the RAF savaged the huge incoming Luftwaffe formations in the skies above London and the south coast.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/battle_of_britain
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A bit melodramatic Cap. Every RAF a/c was not in the air. 13 Group a/c were to far away to participate.