Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MarineUS on June 29, 2011, 10:24:01 PM
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For those who haven't seen this photo - this is a cool little tid bit of history. :)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/xe02s6.jpg)
"Captured B-17F-27-BO in Luftwaffe colors, the USAAF-named "Wulf Hound", 41-24585, of the 360th BS/303rd BG, missing in action 16 October 1942. Operated by Kampfgeschwader 200."
The Luftwaffe
After examining wrecked B-17s and B-24s, Luftwaffe officers discovered that on average it took around 20 hits with 20 mm (0.79 in) shells fired from the rear to bring them down.[81] Pilots of average ability hit the bombers with only about two percent of the rounds they fired, so to obtain 20 hits, the average pilot had to fire one thousand 20 mm (0.79 in) rounds at a bomber.[81] Early versions of the Fw 190, one of the best German interceptor fighters, were equipped with two 20 mm (0.79 in) MG FF cannons, which carried only 500 rounds, and later with the better Mauser MG 151/20 cannons, which had a longer effective range than the MG FF weapon. The German fighters found that when attacking from the front, where fewer defensive guns were pointed, it only took four or five hits to bring a bomber down.[81] To address the Fw 190's shortcomings, the number of cannons fitted was doubled to four with a corresponding increase in the amount of ammunition carried, and in 1944, a further upgrade to Rheinmetall-Borsig's 30 mm (1.2 in) MK 108 cannons was made, which could bring a bomber down in just a few hits.[81]
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2lm2umf.jpg)
B-17G-15-BO "Wee Willie", 322d BS, 91st BG, after direct flak hit on her 128th mission.[112]
The adoption of the Werfer-Granate 21 (Wfr. Gr. 21) rocket mortar by the Luftwaffe in mid-August 1943 promised the introduction of a major "stand-off" style of offensive weapon – one strut-mounted tubular launcher was fixed under each wing panel on the Luftwaffe's single-engined fighters, and two under each wing panel of a few twin-engined Bf 110 daylight Zerstörer aircraft.[81] However, due to the ballistic drop of the fired rocket (despite the usual mounting of the launcher at about 15° upward orientation), and the small number of fighters fitted with the weapons, the Wfr. Gr. 21 never had a major effect on the combat box formations of Fortresses.[81] Also, the attempts of the Luftwaffe to fit heavy-calibre Bordkanone-series 37, 50 and even 75 mm (2.95 in) cannon as anti-bomber weapons on twin-engined aircraft such as the special Ju 88P fighters, as well as one model of the Me 410 Hornisse, did not have much effect on the American strategic bomber offensive. The Me 262 had moderate success against the B-17 late in the war however. With its usual nose-mounted armament of four MK 108 cannons, and with some examples later equipped with the R4M rocket, launched from underwing racks, it could fire from outside the range of the bombers' .50 in (12.7 mm) defensive guns and bring an aircraft down with one hit.[113]
Captured B-17F-27-BO in Luftwaffe colors, the USAAF-named "Wulf Hound", 41-24585, of the 360th BS/303rd BG, missing in action 16 October 1942. Operated by Kampfgeschwader 200.
During World War II, after crash-landing or being forced down, approximately 40 B-17s were captured and refurbished by the Luftwaffe with about a dozen put back into the air. Given German markings, the captured B-17s were used to determine the airplane's vulnerabilities and to train German interceptor pilots in tactics.[114] Others, with the cover designations Dornier Do 200 and Do 288, were used as long-range transports by the Kampfgeschwader 200 special duties unit, carrying out agent drops and supplying secret airstrips in the Middle East and North Africa. They were chosen for these missions as being more suitable for the role than available German aircraft and not in an attempt to deceive the Allies, being operated in full Luftwaffe markings.[115][116] One of the B-17s of KG200, bearing Luftwaffe markings A3+FB, was interned by Spain when it landed at Valencia airfield, 27 June 1944, and remained there for the rest of the war.[72]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress
Just thought you guys would like to read a little history. :)
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Here is another link I found while looking up the first bomber: http://www.303rdbg.com/360crew-photo.html
If you click the names, it has their details. Some even have stories, like this one: http://www.303rdbg.com/360morrin.html
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was gonna say, where did i just recently see all this then i saw the wiki link...
I was supprised when i first read this.
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Yeah it's pretty cool.
Here is the link to the crew's page: http://www.303rdbg.com/c-360-flickenger.html
And here is more info on the mission where they had to down the plane, as well as pieces of the plane today: http://www.303rdbg.com/pp-wulfehound.html
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That's very cool.. thank you for that.
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Very interesting. I found that particular photo of Wee Willie while researching for an English summative this year. As for the Luftwaffe B-17... I have seen it recently...but I can't think of where. in a book, probably.
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German capture a lot of allies bombers and fighters. Too bad they didn't develop these worthless fighters....... :bolt:
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/p38.jpg)
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German capture a lot of allies bombers and fighters. Too bad they didn't develop these worthless fighters....... :bolt:
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/p38.jpg)
Well, they figured it would be better as a bomber rather than a fighter.
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Well, they figured it would be better as a bomber rather than a fighter.
:rofl :aok
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German capture a lot of allies bombers and fighters. Too bad they didn't develop these worthless fighters....... :bolt:
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/p38.jpg)
:furious
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the US was to dumb to captrue any HE177s if they did remake HE177s and fly them... it would still be used today :D
EDIT: they did do this i think they call it B2 or something.
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How old are you, olds? If you don't mind me asking...how do you know about the :noid sheep?
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That second pic is gut wrenching. Hopefully the concussion took everyone out quick because it looks like a huge fireball. :salute
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I don't know what is the fireball you are talking about but that is not it in that second picture.
Probably the greatest fears of bomber crew was to either burn or be trapped by G forces into the fuselage and go all the way down while retaining consciousness and I think that is what is going on in second picture. However if the dive angle was deep enough the airframe would more of less disintegrate and kill the crew in the process, or the G forces would be so great that the crew would pass out.
Few guys were lucky in such cases but e.g. Nicholas Alkemade was. He bailed out without a parachute from a burning Lancaster considering the fall a better option than to be burned alive and he survived the fall.
Another survived in the tail of a B17 after the plane was disintegrated and he floated down in the severed tailsection but was injured in the process.
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MG-FF in FW190 only had 60+60 rounds (and later 90+90). AFAIK FW190 carried 1000 20mm rounds only in A5/U12 and later in R1 configurations with two WB151s.
Germans did not use 75mm operationally against bombers, only 50mm (in ME410) as the calculations suggested that a hit from a 50mm would guarantee the destruction of any bomber anywhere it hit it.
I think the P38 there was a part of a "circus" that traveled around German airbases giving the LW pilots a chance to test and inspect the equipment of their enemy.
-C+
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I don't know what is the fireball you are talking about but that is not it in that second picture.
Either that is the sun directly above them or an aircraft enveloped in a huge fireball. It's black and white, see the ultrabright spot above the aircraft? That's either the sun in a perfectly framed shot or a couple thousand gallons of aviation fuel ignited by enemy fire.
Like I said, I hope the concussion took them out.
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Ok, I was thinking that if an aircraft is on fire it would look something like this:
(http://b-24.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/4/5/2445276/6943698.jpg?590x462)
-C+
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German capture a lot of allies bombers and fighters. Too bad they didn't develop these worthless fighters....... :bolt:
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/p38.jpg)
Finally a classy German Fighter :D :bolt:
Thanks for the pics Marine :aok
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How did the number of guns pointing at you effect the number of hits required to bring the plane down? :headscratch:
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Also......when extrapolated to 13mm/12.7mm/50cal, how many of these rounds are required to bring one down?
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How did the number of guns pointing at you effect the number of hits required to bring the plane down? :headscratch:
More guns meant more ammo, and a higher fire rate.
For example, the rate of fire on a MK 108 cannon is 650 rounds per minute. Let's say that it had 500 rounds.
That means that an aircraft with one MK 108 cannon could fire 500 rounds in 10/13 of a minute.
However, an aircraft with four MK 108 cannons with 500 rounds each could fire 2,000 rounds in 10/13 of a minute. This meant that an aircraft with four cannons could kill a bomber four times more quickly than an aircraft with only one.
-Penguin
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More guns meant more ammo, and a higher fire rate.
For example, the rate of fire on a MK 108 cannon is 650 rounds per minute. Let's say that it had 500 rounds.
That means that an aircraft with one MK 108 cannon could fire 500 rounds in 10/13 of a minute.
However, an aircraft with four MK 108 cannons with 500 rounds each could fire 2,000 rounds in 10/13 of a minute. This meant that an aircraft with four cannons could kill a bomber four times more quickly than an aircraft with only one.
-Penguin
I was talking about this:
After examining wrecked B-17s and B-24s, Luftwaffe officers discovered that on average it took around 20 hits with 20 mm (0.79 in) shells fired from the rear to bring them down.[81] Pilots of average ability hit the bombers with only about two percent of the rounds they fired, so to obtain 20 hits, the average pilot had to fire one thousand 20 mm (0.79 in) rounds at a bomber.[81] Early versions of the Fw 190, one of the best German interceptor fighters, were equipped with two 20 mm (0.79 in) MG FF cannons, which carried only 500 rounds, and later with the better Mauser MG 151/20 cannons, which had a longer effective range than the MG FF weapon. The German fighters found that when attacking from the front, where fewer defensive guns were pointed, it only took four or five hits to bring a bomber down.[81] To address the Fw 190's shortcomings, the number of cannons fitted was doubled to four with a corresponding increase in the amount of ammunition carried, and in 1944, a further upgrade to Rheinmetall-Borsig's 30 mm (1.2 in) MK 108 cannons was made, which could bring a bomber down in just a few hits.[81]
Never mind though, now that I read it again I think the number of guns comment is relevant and just mentioned for extra info. The reason would be killing the pilot or damaging flying instruments and parts when attacking from the front. Not enough coffee yet :lol
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It's all good. :cheers:
-Penguin
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Yeah, of course you could have one 20mm cannon with 1000 rounds but such configuration would be quite useless against bombers since there is only so much time to loiter on bomber's 6oc before either an escort shoots you down or the hail of defensive fire hits you. Thus it is essential to determine how many cannons the airframe can carry to get the time of firing as short as possible with as much lead in the air and in as short time as possible.
;)
-C+
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I was talking about this:
After examining wrecked B-17s and B-24s, Luftwaffe officers discovered that on average it took around 20 hits with 20 mm (0.79 in) shells fired from the rear to bring them down.[81] Pilots of average ability hit the bombers with only about two percent of the rounds they fired, so to obtain 20 hits, the average pilot had to fire one thousand 20 mm (0.79 in) rounds at a bomber.[81] Early versions of the Fw 190, one of the best German interceptor fighters, were equipped with two 20 mm (0.79 in) MG FF cannons, which carried only 500 rounds, and later with the better Mauser MG 151/20 cannons, which had a longer effective range than the MG FF weapon. The German fighters found that when attacking from the front, where fewer defensive guns were pointed, it only took four or five hits to bring a bomber down.[81] To address the Fw 190's shortcomings, the number of cannons fitted was doubled to four with a corresponding increase in the amount of ammunition carried, and in 1944, a further upgrade to Rheinmetall-Borsig's 30 mm (1.2 in) MK 108 cannons was made, which could bring a bomber down in just a few hits.[81]
Never mind though, now that I read it again I think the number of guns comment is relevant and just mentioned for extra info. The reason would be killing the pilot or damaging flying instruments and parts when attacking from the front. Not enough coffee yet :lol
Kinetic energy of the round would be multiplied by the closing speeds.
Also, leading edges of aircraft are exceedingly important to their inherent airworthiness. :aok Trailing edge hits effect control, but not airworthiness, per say.
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That second pic is gut wrenching. Hopefully the concussion took everyone out quick because it looks like a huge fireball. :salute
There are 3 pictures of this plane going down. The plane ended up exploding into hundreds of pieces while in mid-air.
It is a very saddening photo, which is why I uploaded it. A reminder of how real this all once was...and still is to some.
Here is information about THAT particular bomber. Apparently only the pilot survived...I'd want to/but would hate to hear his story....
"a casualty report for the April 8, 1945 mission for this aircraft (333) and it lists Lt. Fuller (pilot) as the only survivor. There are four listed as MIA and the tail turret gunner is one of them along with the navigator, waist gunner and ball turret gunner and all four are listed on the wall of the missing in the Netherlands (obviously done after the war). Haavelar's book also corroborates that Lt. Fuller was the only survivor. " There are some random accounts saying the tail gunner also survived but the records state it was only Lt. Fuller who made it...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/4528354315/in/set-72157624003121160
Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress
"Wee Willie"
B-17G-15-BO Flying Fortress
s/n 42-31333
322nd Bomb Squadron, 91st Bomb Group, 8th Air Force.
She was lost on April 8,1945 over the marshalling yards at Stendal, killing all the crew (not crew in the photo) but the pilot (1stLt. Robert E. Fuller). There is a famous photo of her after the flak hit caused the wing to come off.
She was also a veteran of over 120 missions and was the last 91st BG plane lost in combat during the war.
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Check this one out:
Here is a random photo depicting the sheer ability of the B17.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/33pbvig.jpg)
"Bombardier killed instantly, pilot flew this ship home from Cologne to the 398th at Nuthampstead, October 15, 1944. Our crew on the same mission that day, lost 2 engines and suffered severe flak damage, but of course nothing like this."
- http://www.b17sam.com/
Here is a link dedicated to World War II pilots and crews.: http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/sets/72157624003121160/detail/
Finally a classy German Fighter :D :bolt:
Thanks for the pics Marine :aok
You're welcome :)
How did the number of guns pointing at you effect the number of hits required to bring the plane down? :headscratch:
Less $#!^ to dodge :P haha Ability to actualy concentrate fire. idk. It's 5:02AM and I haven't been to sleep yet, I'll have to dig around some when I wake up lol
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Kinetic energy of the round would be multiplied by the closing speeds.
Also, leading edges of aircraft are exceedingly important to their inherent airworthiness. :aok Trailing edge hits effect control, but not airworthiness, per say.
yeah, yeah, I was questioning the "fewer guns pointed". I just ignored the comas on the first pass.
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Good read, thanks