Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tyrannis on July 19, 2011, 07:50:43 AM
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Hey guys, currently im in love with the yellow-nose paint schemes of the 109F and G-2 models. (and occasionally the E model aswell, but i dont think it looks as good as the F models yellow-nose)
I was hoping that there would be a yellow nose paint scheme on some of the later 109's but sadly, i can not find any :(
Did no 109 models past the G-2 have the yellow-nose paint scheme or is there just none that have been skinned for the game?
:salute
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The only late war 109's with yellow on nose are those that were on the Eastern Front. Early in the war, most 109s had yellow noses. Later, the Luftwaffe needed to distinguish Eastern Front and Western Front. So Eastern Front designation was yellow anywhere on aircraft. Usually the most common place was rudder and under the nose.
That is the short, simple version. I am sure Krusty will be along shortly to either give the long version or somehow say I am wrong. :)
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The only late war 109's with yellow on nose are those that were on the Eastern Front. Early in the war, most 109s had yellow noses. Later, the Luftwaffe needed to distinguish Eastern Front and Western Front. So Eastern Front designation was yellow anywhere on aircraft. Usually the most common place was rudder and under the nose.
That is the short, simple version. I am sure Krusty will be along shortly to either give the long version or somehow say I am wrong. :)
:rofl
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moin
the yellow nose came from the operation seel?we (seelion) thats why the most later versions didn t have the yelow nose.
the eastern front marking was only the yellow band on the tail.
cu chris3
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It's also related to the general fact that early on in the war bright colors were possible as the Germans were on the offensive. Bright flashes of color were permissable to help identify units and coordinate on flight leaders, etc. As the war progressed they were placed more and more and more on a defensive stance where bright colors served only to bring the hunters down on them. The bright colors gave way to more camouflaged colors across all fronts, for the sake of survival. Those with bright colors were seen by the allies as leaders, aces, etc, and targeted relentlessly in some cases.
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Except in the case of Hartmann where people just stayed the hell away from him if they could. :D
I remember reading that sometimes they would have rookies fly with the same black lotus scheme as his on their 109's to help protect them, making the enemy think the 109 was Hartmann.
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There are some differing stories about hartman and his "tulip petals" and I doubt all of them are true, but I would say that's a slightly different kettle of fish. The tulip petals were darker. Not quite the same as the entire nose brightly painted yellow. You would see them closer-in, rather than (oh, say) 10 miles away.
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You gents are working too hard at this. During the B of B, needing to ID good and baduns in a hurry became a big issue. The LW started using Yellow on the rudder and the nose to help this. In late 40 many units were painting the entire cowling yellow. It was soon figured out that this was a bit too conspicuous. In the summer of 41 regulations were instituted that limited the yellow to the underside of the cowling and rudder. This was standard until the beginning of 1945.
It's about the same idea as the yellow leading edges on RAF birds and the adding of the sky colored prop spinners and tail bands on them.
Obviously there were individual markings, theater markings and unit markings, but the idea of the "Yellow nosed bastards" or the "Abbeville Boys" was as much a product of propaganda as calling P38s "fork tailed devils"
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You gents are working too hard at this. During the B of B, needing to ID good and baduns in a hurry became a big issue. The LW started using Yellow on the rudder and the nose to help this. In late 40 many units were painting the entire cowling yellow. It was soon figured out that this was a bit too conspicuous. In the summer of 41 regulations were instituted that limited the yellow to the underside of the cowling and rudder. This was standard until the beginning of 1945.
It's about the same idea as the yellow leading edges on RAF birds and the adding of the sky colored prop spinners and tail bands on them.
Obviously there were individual markings, theater markings and unit markings, but the idea of the "Yellow nosed bastards" or the "Abbeville Boys" was as much a product of propaganda as calling P38s "fork tailed devils"
So, in a nutshell, your all saying that none of the 109s past the G-2 have yellow-nosed paint schemes?
that sucks :(
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The BOB was lost. Germany was now on uncertain footing. Now their staging areas and bases were being overflown and bombed by enemy formations with the intent of drawing them out into fights. The reason it was too conspicuous is because it was too easily spotted.
Hence tying into the whole aggressive/defensive mindset of the era in question.
Tyrannis, that's right. You can still find some colorful schemes, just colorful in different ways. Like the sandgelb 109G2 with olivgrun splotches on the upper surfaces. That's a favorite of mine.
While cowlings were toned down, you still find the odd colored rudder for some aces, or depending on the plane the entire tail (like some 190s with white tails).
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Except in the case of Hartmann where people just stayed the hell away from him if they could. :D
I remember reading that sometimes they would have rookies fly with the same black lotus scheme as his on their 109's to help protect them, making the enemy think the 109 was Hartmann.
Quite the contrary, he stayed away from them unless they weren't looking. If he was in AH, many ppl would whine on 200 and call him a vajayjay.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fhZZ63PRjhQ/TBtrG0nlcWI/AAAAAAAABCA/_SJCT97x_dw/s1600/hartmann.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fhZZ63PRjhQ/TBtrGRLQ_gI/AAAAAAAABB4/V7JlSIKFjMU/s1600/hartmannII.jpg)
Two nice and rarely seen views of Hartmann's 7./JG52 G-6 "White 1" seen in late 1944 in Hungary
Source: http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/search/label/JG%2052
Some rare pictures of Hartmann's black tulip 109. I never seen these before till now. Enjoy!
Side note, from the looks of it, it looks like it has a yellow chin up under the nose. Krusty, does that look yellow to you?
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beau32,
The non-tulip color looks lighter under the nose to me as well.
Nice photos, thanks for sharing.
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Not really related to any 109's other than Emils, but seeing this thread made me immediately think of one of my favorite aviation artists, Geoff Nutkins.
Clifftop Chase
(http://www.aviartnutkins.com/images/limited/large/LE11-Clifftop-Chase-Me109-Spitfire.jpg)
A few more 109 yellow noses....
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i152/94thBombGroup/RiseOfEagles.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i152/94thBombGroup/EagleAttack.jpg)
and just because all 109's should meet their proper end at the hand of Sydney Camm's Hurricane........
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i152/94thBombGroup/Battle%20of%20Britain%20%20-%20Art%20Chronology/TheStruggleBegins.jpg)
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Not really related to any 109's other than Emils, but seeing this thread made me immediately think of one of my favorite aviation artists, Geoff Nutkins.
Clifftop Chase
(http://www.aviartnutkins.com/images/limited/large/LE11-Clifftop-Chase-Me109-Spitfire.jpg)
A few more 109 yellow noses....
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i152/94thBombGroup/RiseOfEagles.jpg)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i152/94thBombGroup/EagleAttack.jpg)
and just because all 109's should meet their proper end at the hand of Sydney Camm's Hurricane........
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i152/94thBombGroup/Battle%20of%20Britain%20%20-%20Art%20Chronology/TheStruggleBegins.jpg)
i was happy until the end of your post
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The BOB was lost. Germany was now on uncertain footing. Now their staging areas and bases were being overflown and bombed by enemy formations with the intent of drawing them out into fights.
Really? I thought the allies bombed Germany to hinder their ability to wage war, not to "draw them out into fights". From a strategic and tactical perspective bombing an enemy base is about destoying planes on the ground so you don't have to fight them. Funny how all those who were there and all those historians and military leaders got it wrong.
BTW, here's a couple of my favorite yellow nosed 109 pics. One's a painting, the other a modern photo and the third has nothing to do with yellow noses but has always been one of my favorite 109 paintings:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/Bf109x201.jpg)
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/Bf109E01.jpg)
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/Bf109x301.jpg)
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Really? I thought the allies bombed Germany to hinder their ability to wage war, not to "draw them out into fights". From a strategic and tactical perspective bombing an enemy base is about destoying planes on the ground so you don't have to fight them. Funny how all those who were there and all those historians and military leaders got it wrong.
BTW, here's a couple of my favorite yellow nosed 109 pics. One's a painting, the other a modern photo and the third has nothing to do with yellow noses but has always been one of my favorite 109 paintings:
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/Bf109x201.jpg)
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/Bf109E01.jpg)
(http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww72/imbe/Bf109x301.jpg)
Im not an expert on the subject, but i do remember that in WWI in HD:The Airwar. They mentioned that When Doolitle became in charge of the 8th, He conducted a few Bomber raids where the main purpose of the bombers was not to cause catastrophic damage, But to draw the luftwaffe forces into the sky. And the Fighter's job was not to protect the bombers, but go after said fighters relentlessly until there shot out of the sky.
Basically they used the bombers as bait to draw the Luftwaffe out of hiding, once up the fighters abandoned the bombers to pursue the luftwaffe forces into the ground.
I believe it was part of the preperation for Normandy. To cripple the Luftwaffe's fighter force
You can watch the Air War on Netflix if you wish to check into what ive said. :salute Was a very good show :aok
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third has nothing to do with yellow noses but has always been one of my favorite 109 paintings:
looks more like a picture - and those are modified 109's with umm spitfire engines... :noid
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Im not an expert on the subject, but i do remember that in WWI in HD:The Airwar. They mentioned that When Doolitle became in charge of the 8th, He conducted a few Bomber raids where the main purpose of the bombers was not to cause catastrophic damage, But to draw the luftwaffe forces into the sky. And the Fighter's job was not to protect the bombers, but go after said fighters relentlessly until there shot out of the sky.
Basically they used the bombers as bait to draw the Luftwaffe out of hiding, once up the fighters abandoned the bombers to pursue the luftwaffe forces into the ground.
I believe it was part of the preperation for Normandy. To cripple the Luftwaffe's fighter force
You can watch the Air War on Netflix if you wish to check into what ive said. :salute Was a very good show :aok
Huh? :huh
Where on earth did you hear about that?
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Huh? :huh
Where on earth did you hear about that?
Watch WWII in HD: The Air War.
They mention this tactic, thought up by Doolittle.
It was part of the plan to reduce Luftwaffe fighting forces so they wouldnt be a factor in the invasion of Normandy.
Mentioned the name like twice in my previous post... :rolleyes:
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Watch WWII in HD: The Air War.
I've seen this too. Wasn't really a 'good' thing to be the bait lol...
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Basically they used the bombers as bait to draw the Luftwaffe out of hiding, once up the fighters abandoned the bombers to pursue the luftwaffe forces into the ground.
Thats absolutely correct, because by 1944, they realized that strategic bombing wasn't having a noticeable impact on war production, so the shift in preparation of D-Day was to defeat the luftwaffe, and in order to do that, they would bait the Luftwaffe up with bombers and use it an an opportunity to engage them with the fighter support they had.
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Wasn't the objective of Big Week to lure the Luftwaffe out so they could be destroyed in the air?
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Get your history books out. Despite the fact there was a war on didn't mean that there wasn't also a war going on within the USAAF between the bomber guys and fighter guys. The guys leading the 8th initially were bomber guys, who believed that they could go deep without fighter escort and were bent on proving it. They didn't want fighter escorts which is why the 38s were quickly sent to North Africa despite having the range, and the Jugs arrived in England with no provisions for drop tanks, despite DTs being used on 39s and 40s along with the 38s. When Doolittle took over in early 44 it had already been made clear that the bombers wouldn't make it without fighters. He also turned the fighters loose to kill the LW in the air and on the ground. In essence the bombers were bait.
Bigweek was very much meant to draw the Luftwaffe up and the fights into May 44 were essential to killing the Luftwaffe and making sure that the only planes seen over the D-Day beaches were Allied, which outside of two 190s on one run, and maybe flight of Ju88s was what happened.
It was a war of attrition that the Luftwaffe could not win, and the Allies could afford to fight. If you dig into the details, it's amazing the difference in the numbers of sorties flown by either side by the time of D-Day. Were talking tens of thousands vs 100s.
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Baldeagl, your tone and antagonism are unwarranted. In fact the RAF built many missions in 1941/1942 called "circuses" (and other colorful names) where the main intent was to destroy the Luftwaffe fighter force. The Luftwaffe could decide at whim when to take off and meet the RAF in combat, and when not to. That is, if the RAF was simply running a fighter sweep. If the RAF actually attacked with bombers, the Luftwaffe would take off to stop their fields from being bombed.
The RAF would send a token bomber force, maybe 1 or 2 bombers, but then include 3 squadrons of escorts.
The entire effort was simply to get the Luftwaffe into the air to fight. The Luftwaffe was very much on the defensive (in the respect to their localized environment, not to the overall war) and bright yellow noses gave away aircraft hidden under camo nets around airfields.
I'm not talking 1944/1945. I'm referring to immediately post-BOB, when the RAF was rebounding and taking over the skies. The Luftwaffe was forced to change a number of preconceptions they had about how they could and should fly/fight in the war.
They still put up a very hard fight, and JG2 killed many a SpitV pilot, but that's beside the point regarding the colorful markings.
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Baldeagl, your tone and antagonism are unwarranted. In fact the RAF built many missions in 1941/1942 called "circuses" (and other colorful names) where the main intent was to destroy the Luftwaffe fighter force. The Luftwaffe could decide at whim when to take off and meet the RAF in combat, and when not to. That is, if the RAF was simply running a fighter sweep. If the RAF actually attacked with bombers, the Luftwaffe would take off to stop their fields from being bombed.
The RAF would send a token bomber force, maybe 1 or 2 bombers, but then include 3 squadrons of escorts.
The entire effort was simply to get the Luftwaffe into the air to fight. The Luftwaffe was very much on the defensive (in the respect to their localized environment, not to the overall war) and bright yellow noses gave away aircraft hidden under camo nets around airfields.
I'm not talking 1944/1945. I'm referring to immediately post-BOB, when the RAF was rebounding and taking over the skies. The Luftwaffe was forced to change a number of preconceptions they had about how they could and should fly/fight in the war.
They still put up a very hard fight, and JG2 killed many a SpitV pilot, but that's beside the point regarding the colorful markings.
This is correct, from the RAF standpoint. I can't comment on Luftwaffe paint requirements, but the reason given here is plausible.
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In the end you could argue that whichever side had the most confidence had the most color. Think about all that colorful paint and lack of camo on USAAF birds from May 44 on. The message was loud and clear. Come on up. We're here and we're ready for ya.
I'd suggest that the Luftwaffe felt that way up until about 41 on the western front.
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A couple of good links to help you guys out.
http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/luftcam/index.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-markings-camouflage/luftwaffe-aircraft-camouflage-markings-9318.html