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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: titanic3 on August 01, 2011, 09:39:34 PM

Title: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: titanic3 on August 01, 2011, 09:39:34 PM
Hey all, I started flying the Corsairs and fell in love with F4U-1D. I've gotten down aiming, landing, take offs and all that. But I have difficulties regaining energy after making a dive on an enemy. I sometimes have to cut throttle to prevent myself from locking up and augering, but that means I usually end up 1000ft under my original altitude from when I began the dive.

I used to fly the 109s a couple of years back a lot, and never had to deal with E problems because of their amazing engines. But it seems to me that the F4U doesn't accelerate very well. Any help or tips on being a better Corsair pilot?
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Krusty on August 01, 2011, 10:29:08 PM
If you're at the low point of a dive, you don't regain E. You have tons of it. You bring your nose back up. Keep the engine full and climb, zoom, or run at a very shallow climb until you are clear. Minimize the Gs you pull, they will bleed your speed off. You want to be easy on the controls to get back as much alt as possible when pulling out of a dive.

If you're screwing up the attack, you need to adjust what you're doing. Come in at a different angle. Descend FIRST, then set up the attack. Don't push an attack from a bad position, especially if you're ABOVE the other guy (you said diving, so we'll assume that). Take the time to set it up right and you won't overshoot.


Also, don't forget to chop throttle if you have a fast dive, stomp rudder, drop your gear (in F4us they are air brakes), or just position it so that you blast the guy out of the sky in 1 pass so you have all the time in the world to regain your alt.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: MK-84 on August 01, 2011, 10:37:10 PM
F4u will gain the most E in a vertical zoom.  It has excellent E retention.  Unfortunately it climbs poorly.   It also has possibly the most effective flaps in the game (which will blow your E in return)  The best way (for me) to fly is to stay fast in the vertical, and only deploy flaps at the top of a loop, or if you are 100% certain you can out turn your opponent.  You will be surprised at what you can out turn, even in a stall-fight.  There are plenty of much better F4u pilots than me, but I would ask FTDEEP for some advice if you see him flying along.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: titanic3 on August 01, 2011, 10:39:57 PM
Ah, so instead of diving straight down, I should get lower than my target at fullspeed?

But doesn't that expose me to other planes for a longer time? Since I'm now lower than they are?

Thanks for the help, I'll try it out at the next opportunity.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 01, 2011, 11:09:40 PM
Learn to use the flaps. They must go out long enough to haul the nose in the turn, yet short enough they dont take off big chunks of your E. Just managing the flaps is gonna keep you busy in there. You never want to be lower than the bad guys. Especially in a hog. If you lock it up in a dive, maybe you need to choose your target more carefully. Stay high and fast, and instead of going down to him, let him come up to you, if you loose E, it's gone until the end of the fight. A 109 can get some back because of the great climb rate. A hog not so much. Then you must also choose your targets very carefully. Trying to get a bunch of spits or zeke by yourself is suicide. You might get one and the other will swarm you. You cannot outurn most of the plane set. You can out run some, and you wont out climb or out accelerate anything but a dr1. All the climbing have to be done by the time you get to the target zone.

Against most of the british planes it's at a severe disadvantage in turn rate, as it is against japanese. Be VERY careful around them. If they are higher, you're gonna have a real hard time(and most probably end up dead...). Against most of the american planeset, you have a good chance if you play your cards well. They are : good roll rate at every speed and especially low speed roll rate, good flaps, good instantaneous turn rate (dont hesitate to drop a notch of flaps or two if you need it and get them back in ASAP), pretty good low speed handling (for when thing get dirty), and lastly, it can take a beating. Learn the rolling scissor, how to initiate it. It's the best move in the hog's arsenal.

Another thing to keep in mind: the hog got a pretty high wing loading, easy to snap stall if you too harsh with the controls. It can leave you in nasty stall situation if your not careful.

All things I wrote as they come to mind. Have left many out cause it's sometimes too hard to put in words. It'll come with stick time. It did for me at least....

You can survive any fight. Your biggest threat up there is yourself. Many fight you cant win. Just gotta learn to recognize it.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 01, 2011, 11:19:03 PM
I sometimes have to cut throttle to prevent myself from locking up and augering, but that means I usually end up 1000ft under my original altitude from when I began the dive.

Use manual trim.  Combat trim will help you auger because as you increase speed, it will add nose-down trim, which exacerbates the problem...
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: JUGgler on August 02, 2011, 12:24:27 AM
Corsairs run out of energy?  :huh



JUGgler
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: bozon on August 02, 2011, 02:52:05 AM
Ah, so instead of diving straight down, I should get lower than my target at fullspeed?

But doesn't that expose me to other planes for a longer time? Since I'm now lower than they are?
You are confusing energy with speed (just the kinetic energy part).

You have two kind of energy: kinetic and potential, but lets call them speed and alt.
You also have a single energy source - engine power
and two kinds of energy sinks: parasitic drag that simply scales with your speed and induced drag which depends on your maneuvering.

Speed bleeds enrgy to the parasitic drag. At low speeds this bleed is weak enough to be compensated by the engine power. You therefore gain energy over time. If you dive and pick up speed, the energy bleed increase significantly (like the square of the speed) and you are not gaining net energy. Therefore if you need mor eenergy you have to be slow.

Alt is banked energy - its is stored and does not bleed. This is why the most efficient way to build energy is to climb - what E you gain, you immediately store in alt so it does not bleed.

When you zoom climb you do not loose energy - you convert the speed into alt. Diving is the was to cash back the stored energy into something you can use, but remember that if your speed is high you are not gaining new energy due to the drag bleed. On the other hand you can actually use this energy to do something. Being low than you opponent is not a disadvantageous position! being lower ENERGY than you opponent is - this means that if you are lower but faster, such that your total energy is higher than his you have the upper hand! You can zoom up to him to his alt and still be as fast or faster than he is. He can dive down to you, but will not catch you because if he cashes his alt for speed it is still not enough to match you.

Speed means that ability to maneuver and the ability to position. So you cash alt for speed and then cash speed into maneuvering. There is absolutely no advantage in being higher when considering maneuvering. It is even disadvantageous. If both planes have the same total E, the higher one is slower (more stationary target that cannot move out of the way), cannot maneuver as well (G limited), and has gravity against him in maneuvers - yes, against!. The plane that attacks uphill (with lots of speed!) can pull more G, can change his actual position in the sky (because he is moving faster)  and the next pull to point at the other guy will have the gravity vector inside his turn, meaning that gravity makes him turn faster.

The rules of thumb are:
* Energy is both speed and alt.
* Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage.
* You want to go up to store and build more energy in times when you do not need to maneuver a lot.
* The alt is there just as an energy bank, waiting for you to cash it into speed and then into maneuvering at the right moment.
* If you die slow and high you are doing it wrong. It is like saving all your life to die a rich man - what is the point in that?
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 02, 2011, 06:13:25 AM
A hog will loose speed very fast fighting uphill. Never a good idea. In that situation, better stay fast and try to let the bad guy come down than go up. At 200 it start to get sluggish and you have to drop flaps for any significant maneuver, exacerbating the Speed bleed off. If both you and the enemy are slow you can always make it work. If you try to get gun solution while going up, chance is you'll be left flapping helplessly. Certain plane will do well in those situation. It's not really the hog's game.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: morfiend on August 02, 2011, 04:55:15 PM
You are confusing energy with speed (just the kinetic energy part).

You have two kind of energy: kinetic and potential, but lets call them speed and alt.
You also have a single energy source - engine power
and two kinds of energy sinks: parasitic drag that simply scales with your speed and induced drag which depends on your maneuvering.

Speed bleeds energy to the parasitic drag. At low speeds this bleed is weak enough to be compensated by the engine power. You therefore gain energy over time. If you dive and pick up speed, the energy bleed increase significantly (like the square of the speed) and you are not gaining net energy. Therefore if you need mor eenergy you have to be slow.

Alt is banked energy - its is stored and does not bleed. This is why the most efficient way to build energy is to climb - what E you gain, you immediately store in alt so it does not bleed.

When you zoom climb you do not loose energy - you convert the speed into alt. Diving is the was to cash back the stored energy into something you can use, but remember that if your speed is high you are not gaining new energy due to the drag bleed. On the other hand you can actually use this energy to do something. Being low than you opponent is not a disadvantageous position! being lower ENERGY than you opponent is - this means that if you are lower but faster, such that your total energy is higher than his you have the upper hand! You can zoom up to him to his alt and still be as fast or faster than he is. He can dive down to you, but will not catch you because if he cashes his alt for speed it is still not enough to match you.

Speed means that ability to maneuver and the ability to position. So you cash alt for speed and then cash speed into maneuvering. There is absolutely no advantage in being higher when considering maneuvering. It is even disadvantageous. If both planes have the same total E, the higher one is slower (more stationary target that cannot move out of the way), cannot maneuver as well (G limited), and has gravity against him in maneuvers - yes, against!. The plane that attacks uphill (with lots of speed!) can pull more G, can change his actual position in the sky (because he is moving faster)  and the next pull to point at the other guy will have the gravity vector inside his turn, meaning that gravity makes him turn faster.

The rules of thumb are:
* Energy is both speed and alt.
* Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage.
* You want to go up to store and build more energy in times when you do not need to maneuver a lot.
* The alt is there just as an energy bank, waiting for you to cash it into speed and then into maneuvering at the right moment.
* If you die slow and high you are doing it wrong. It is like saving all your life to die a rich man - what is the point in that?




  QFT!

   This is some great imformation,too many players confuse what "E" means and a Bozon says it's the total of speed and alt,with the weight of the plane being a factor as well. E fighting is learning how to trade the potential energy for kinetic energy and viseversa.

  One thing I dont think was mentioned is to watch the G meter and try to unload your airframe as you climb,this can be done in a dive also.Unloading the airframe helps to reduce some drag and your potential weight. Say your plane weighs 5 tons at 2 G's it weighs 10 tons but has the same amount of thrust,so if you can reduce the G load to say .5 of a G your plane will weigh 2.5 tons with the same amount of thrust.Which do you think will climb higher?

   Now the weight doesnt really change but the G load makes it seems so or atleast thats the physics behind it....  I'm sure there's much more intelligent players that could explain this in a more technical way and I'd be happy if they'd chime in.


  hope this helps!





    :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: titanic3 on August 02, 2011, 07:13:16 PM
Thanks a lot guys. Manage to land quite a few kills today.  :aok

Now all I have to work on is learning to stall fight and trying to initiate a rolling scissor.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Big Rat on August 02, 2011, 08:21:57 PM
Rule #1 when fighting with a Hog, and one of the first things I teach.  Gain the high ground, and don't give it up easily.  Youre two biggest weaknesses are climb and acceleration.  Therefore gaining position early in a fight while you have plenty of E to burn is critical.  I teach this early and harp on it continually, just ask my students :old:.  Best Corsair advice I can give you besides hooking up with a trainer, is to hang around the TA in the evenings, around 9 central time.  Many talented hog stick around in the evening.

 :salute
BigRat
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Saxman on August 03, 2011, 12:01:21 AM
Don't be afraid to egress out to the edge of the fight (preferably in the direction of friendly territory) to regain altitude as needed. Arguably, you want to follow an outside-in, top-to-bottom approach to a large furball, especially if you're operating alone. Prowl the outer margin of a fight for targets first, particularly newcomers or other aircraft who are closer to your altitude and could give you some trouble if you dive in to the heart of the furball, and work your way in. Be careful about going for a lower target when higher ones are around unless you've got a good run on the target or no other choice. Just be ready to withdraw and reposition if you start finding yourself too low. Trying to regain altitude in the middle of the furball will get you into trouble quick.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dstrip2 on August 03, 2011, 02:40:49 AM
The Hog is all about E management. it will do a lot of stuff really well in the right hands and with the correct amount of energy. in the MA, i usually try to call ahead and figure out what alt the fight is at and show up about 2-3k higher but i dont bother stuff over 15k usually.

you have 5 notches of flaps if my memory serves correctly. the first two notches deploy at relatively high speeds, i usually keep the elevator fairly smooth and constant in energy conserving turns and drop a notch for a second if i need to. DO NOT CONTINUOUSLY FLY WITH THE FLAPS OUT! bad bad bad idea, as mentioned before that extra drag just blows your E. keep them in as much as possible, only kick enough out to get the plane to do what you want it to. dont be afraid to use them though when you need to.

a hog will out-turn a spit16, an la7, and other stuff if you know what you're doing. sustained high-g turns is not ever a great idea in a hog. look up the "lag pursuit" turn and practice using the vertical and your awesome roll rate. snap rolls can be dangerous, especially down low, but i find them fairly controllable. you have lots and lots of options and tricks both offensive and defensive in a hog, IF and only if you have the E to pull them off. if you dont, youll spin out (i.e. you're hanging on your prop, the left wing dips, the plane does some funny things and settles into a left-handed spiral where the wings are stalled and the engine torque is whirling the whole damn thing around to the left. nose down, cut throttle, blend opposite -right- rudder & -right- aileron to recover. BE GENTLE but still firm.

-hog has one of the most effective rudders in the game, and incidentally many players have trouble shooting a yawing (sideslip) airplane. i know guys that set up off to the side of some ho-tard and swing the 50's into them with just the rudder. its also good for purposely stalling a wing in a desperate situation and then catching the stall with the rudder.

- you can throw SOOOO much drag into the equation with this plane between the huge rudder, sturdy gear, and super-flaps (lol). when done right, a hog can force some great over-shoots

-be mindful of the profile you present to the bad guy. the hog is a big target, and its doesnt take but 3 or 4 20mm rounds to break a wing usually.

-has some of the strongest gear in the game, in RL there was a 'dive bombing' setting that held them halfway out... the 1D can do some good JABO work. i think they rip off at 450?

-the hog is a great diver. WEP dive at about a 30-40 degree angle will let you pick up oodles of speed. dont be afraid to drop 3k for some speed to get out from under that spit that is 5k above you. if someone follows you down, chances are you can out-roll them while still in the dive. just get their wings at a 90 degree angle to yours, and ease back on the stick just a little. you'd be surprised how much that can throw some guys off.

-the 'zoom climb' in the hog is great. after a dive and with plenty of speed, start a shallow climb and watch those spits and zekes nose up to follow you and slowly drift back. save some E for a loop at the top, flaps out at the top of the loop.. let those 50's eat up whatever tried to follow you

-hog excells at BnZ (but you knew that) and can make some turns if it has to

-situational awareness is key in a hog. you have to keep track of the relative energy states of everything around you

-set a 'hard deck' when you get to a fight. if i have less than 4k under my wings in a hog, im nervous

-do NOT get slow. slow hog = dead hog most of the time this bird is ALL about E management and awareness, dont be afraid to scoot out of a furball, climb around, and come back 5 minutes later. plenty of gas to do that.

- pilot skill and seat time are the huge determining factors with how 'good' the hog is.

->>> any 190 is easy meat. look at them as target practice. ki84 will give you loads of trouble.  :ahand


you said you have landing down, so i take it you've worked the bounce/ground loop issue out (ride the stall into the runway. makes nice flaps-out 3 point landing for pics)


there is only so much i can put into a post and its probably rather fragmented considering my lack of sleep. your best bet is to hit the DA with some friends or the TA at the times posted earlier and bet them they cant impress you  :lol lots of good sticks that have been in hogs since warbirds still tooling around. probably some stuff on youtube for inspiration. request to join anybody you see consistently landing kills in the hog. ask them before sending the request though.

oh, try flying the 1A instead of the D. burn the left wing tank dry, keep about 1/8 or 1/4 in the right. makes a good ballast to compensate (some) for engine torque at low speeds and makes a good little reserve. besides, the 1A has better skins. and if you're gonna die in cartoon land you may as well look good doing it  :neener:

 :airplane: <- don't blue planes look sooooooo sexy?  :banana:

<S>
DsTrip2
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: coombz on August 03, 2011, 03:47:35 AM
thanks all for the posts and info :aok trying to learn the corsairs a bit atm and this is really useful

look up the "lag pursuit" turn and practice using the vertical and your awesome roll rate.

would be great to see some film of an f4u demonstrating this  :pray
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: ink on August 03, 2011, 03:52:03 AM
You are confusing energy with speed (just the kinetic energy part).

You have two kind of energy: kinetic and potential, but lets call them speed and alt.
You also have a single energy source - engine power
and two kinds of energy sinks: parasitic drag that simply scales with your speed and induced drag which depends on your maneuvering.

Speed bleeds enrgy to the parasitic drag. At low speeds this bleed is weak enough to be compensated by the engine power. You therefore gain energy over time. If you dive and pick up speed, the energy bleed increase significantly (like the square of the speed) and you are not gaining net energy. Therefore if you need mor eenergy you have to be slow.

Alt is banked energy - its is stored and does not bleed. This is why the most efficient way to build energy is to climb - what E you gain, you immediately store in alt so it does not bleed.

When you zoom climb you do not loose energy - you convert the speed into alt. Diving is the was to cash back the stored energy into something you can use, but remember that if your speed is high you are not gaining new energy due to the drag bleed. On the other hand you can actually use this energy to do something. Being low than you opponent is not a disadvantageous position! being lower ENERGY than you opponent is - this means that if you are lower but faster, such that your total energy is higher than his you have the upper hand! You can zoom up to him to his alt and still be as fast or faster than he is. He can dive down to you, but will not catch you because if he cashes his alt for speed it is still not enough to match you.

Speed means that ability to maneuver and the ability to position. So you cash alt for speed and then cash speed into maneuvering. There is absolutely no advantage in being higher when considering maneuvering. It is even disadvantageous. If both planes have the same total E, the higher one is slower (more stationary target that cannot move out of the way), cannot maneuver as well (G limited), and has gravity against him in maneuvers - yes, against!. The plane that attacks uphill (with lots of speed!) can pull more G, can change his actual position in the sky (because he is moving faster)  and the next pull to point at the other guy will have the gravity vector inside his turn, meaning that gravity makes him turn faster.

The rules of thumb are:
* Energy is both speed and alt.
* Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage.
* You want to go up to store and build more energy in times when you do not need to maneuver a lot.
* The alt is there just as an energy bank, waiting for you to cash it into speed and then into maneuvering at the right moment.
* If you die slow and high you are doing it wrong. It is like saving all your life to die a rich man - what is the point in that?


I pretty much agree with most every thing here..except what I high lighted in red.....

having a superior ALT is an advantage...I am really surprised by your statement that its not....in the MA it is the best advantage there is....a crappy plane with a good stick in it will kill the lower con in any plane most of the time.....if its not an advantage then why try to Climb above to dictate the fight.......the HIGHER con dictates the fight.

one higher con can destroy(if he is a good shot and knows his plane) any number of nme cons lower then him......

to say having ALT on a nme con is not an advantage is very wrong.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: lengro on August 03, 2011, 05:55:37 AM
to say having ALT on a nme con is not an advantage is very wrong.

Unless of course, the lower one has speed enough to give him more total energy.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Midway on August 03, 2011, 07:42:20 AM
I pretty much agree with most every thing here..except what I high lighted in red.....

having a superior ALT is an advantage...I am really surprised by your statement that its not....in the MA it is the best advantage there is....a crappy plane with a good stick in it will kill the lower con in any plane most of the time.....if its not an advantage then why try to Climb above to dictate the fight.......the HIGHER con dictates the fight.

one higher con can destroy(if he is a good shot and knows his plane) any number of nme cons lower then him......

to say having ALT on a nme con is not an advantage is very wrong.

He meant "E advantage".   High and slow = low and fast in terms of energy in many cases. To be sure higher has the E advantage, you need to be aware of the speed of the lower con.  If he is really fast, the lower con may even have the E advantage.  262s do that a lot to me.  :bolt:
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: pervert on August 03, 2011, 07:45:29 AM
I pretty much agree with most every thing here..except what I high lighted in red.....

having a superior ALT is an advantage...I am really surprised by your statement that its not....in the MA it is the best advantage there is....a crappy plane with a good stick in it will kill the lower con in any plane most of the time.....if its not an advantage then why try to Climb above to dictate the fight.......the HIGHER con dictates the fight.

one higher con can destroy(if he is a good shot and knows his plane) any number of nme cons lower then him......

to say having ALT on a nme con is not an advantage is very wrong.

Hes right it is just a position, and thats a good way to look at it, I'm sure theres a lot of guys who had the alt advantage in a furball commit themselves to say a rope on a lower con assuming they had the advantage and have him climb right up and kill them wondering how they got that E answer is they had it in the first place.

Alt is just a means to temporarily overcome drag which is limiting the thrust of the engine to go faster, having it means you have the potential to go faster not that you are faster relative to a lower con.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 03, 2011, 08:39:03 AM
Being slow at any alt is asking for trouble. Very good pieces of advice all over this thread. One I'd like to add : use manual trim if you need to go flaps down. In a hog, combat trim is just good to fly to target. It'll fight you by making the nose go way up when adding flaps. So no point in that. I have it mapped to one of the rotary axis on my x45. I take off in combat trim, climb in combat trim and once I get to alt, I trim neutral at 275mph (use level auto pilot to trim ailerons and rudder, set the elevator with the thumb wheel).

 :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: shiv on August 03, 2011, 09:39:58 AM
Now all I have to work on is learning to stall fight and trying to initiate a rolling scissor.


I really need to take a rolling scissors lesson but I do practice them all the time. Generally you want to start a rolling scissors when you're at a disadvantage. One way is to get the con to overshoot your flight path and then roll back at him.

A simple example: faster con is coming up behind you. You pull into a hard left turn. The opponent tries to match your turn but is going to fast to sustain it and is pushed outside of your turn and is now behind and right of you. So if you were looking at it from above you'd see that he has overshot your flight path.

That's when you pull up and roll back to the right, aggressively pulling into the con. With the right timing he'll pull up at you, probably shooting, hopefully missing, and you'll be in a rolling scissors. You've taken a defensive move - the hard break turn - and turned it into offense.

The timing of the reverse is everything or he'll get a shot at you when you roll back. You want to roll back at him right when he's trying to correct the overshoot. You want him committed to turning back into you when you roll back at him so he'll be trapped in the scissors. So reversing back into him too early and no scissors, too late and he's got an easy shot.

That's just one example, but in general any time a con overshoots your flight path is an opportunity to roll back at him and try to get a scissors going.

Excellent thread on the scissors and the barrel roll defense here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=276908.25 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=276908.25)
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Soulyss on August 03, 2011, 10:22:06 AM
I pretty much agree with most every thing here..except what I high lighted in red.....

having a superior ALT is an advantage...I am really surprised by your statement that its not....in the MA it is the best advantage there is....a crappy plane with a good stick in it will kill the lower con in any plane most of the time.....if its not an advantage then why try to Climb above to dictate the fight.......the HIGHER con dictates the fight.

one higher con can destroy(if he is a good shot and knows his plane) any number of nme cons lower then him......

to say having ALT on a nme con is not an advantage is very wrong.

Perhaps instead of saying "Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage" it would be better to phrase it as "Higher is just a vertical position, not necessarily an advantage".  I think the purpose of the discussion was to get newer players to understand and contemplate both speed and alt (kinetic and potential) energy.  I see a lot of frustration from some of the new players because they can't understand what happened and how the lost, and a lot of that frustration comes from statements like "we were co-e" when they meant to say co-alt. 

Having altitude can definitely be an advantage, but I think it's a common mistake to think have more altitude than our opponent automatically equates to having more E.

 
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: ink on August 03, 2011, 01:44:45 PM
Perhaps instead of saying "Higher is just a vertical position, not an advantage" it would be better to phrase it as "Higher is just a vertical position, not necessarily an advantage".  I think the purpose of the discussion was to get newer players to understand and contemplate both speed and alt (kinetic and potential) energy.  I see a lot of frustration from some of the new players because they can't understand what happened and how the lost, and a lot of that frustration comes from statements like "we were co-e" when they meant to say co-alt. 

Having altitude can definitely be an advantage, but I think it's a common mistake to think have more altitude than our opponent automatically equates to having more E.

 

this I can understand and completely agree with.....

the higher con does have an advantage, but yes knowing your nme's E state is vital, I used hear it all the time....damn Hurri no way can you climb up to me...they didn't realize I was doing like 400....


the easiest way to judge someone's E state is the distance counter,  whats the nme's closure rate...this will tell you exactly what E state the nme has.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: bozon on August 03, 2011, 02:19:51 PM
having a superior ALT is an advantage...I am really surprised by your statement that its not....in the MA it is the best advantage there is....a crappy plane with a good stick in it will kill the lower con in any plane most of the time.....if its not an advantage then why try to Climb above to dictate the fight.......the HIGHER con dictates the fight.

one higher con can destroy(if he is a good shot and knows his plane) any number of nme cons lower then him......
If the two planes have equal total E, then the low-fast one is generally in a better position than the high-slow one. You go across shops and suddenly spot a good "today only" deal - you can take the opportunity if you have your money in your pocket. You cannot take advantage of  the deal if you have lots of money which is locked away in savings accounts in the bank.

You will find that most vets prefer to be lower then the opponent in the merge. You will also find many vets "hiding" their true E in a furball by diving a bit lower than their opponents: It makes them look like low threat and players don't track them with much attention. Attacking from below is the region in the sphere that is least sampled by the pilots when they are looking around - no SA means a quick victory. If players do spot you, most think alt=advantage and will defend by zooming up and trying to rope you - worst move ever, quick victory.

If speed is not considered, Alt alone is just a vertical position.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 03, 2011, 03:17:07 PM
If the two planes have equal total E, then the low-fast one is generally in a better position than the high-slow one. 

Depends on the weights of the planes.  The plane with the lower weight has a higher specific energy, which is a better metric than total energy.  From a tactical perspective, "co-e", I'll take the altitude.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Wiley on August 03, 2011, 03:41:37 PM
...damn Hurri no way can you climb up to me...they didn't realize I was doing like 400....

I'd be willing to bet this scenario is the single biggest cause of new guy 'cheater' whines in the game.

The plane with the lower weight has a higher specific energy, which is a better metric than total energy.  From a tactical perspective, "co-e", I'll take the altitude.

I've never heard the term 'specific energy' and Google has failed me at least as far as how it applies to aircraft.  What does it mean and how do you apply it to ACM?

Wiley.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Big Rat on August 03, 2011, 06:00:18 PM
How to regain lost E? (F4U)

Probably a better question is how to maintain E in aF4U.  The hog is so poor at regaining E, it's better to concentrate on maintaining what you have vs trying to get it back.  A couple trick to this. One is altitude is a great E bank that you can withdraw from when needed, so keep as much of it as you can as long as you can.  Once you withdraw from this bank with a Hog, trying to put a deposit back in is tough, becouse of the hog's poor climb and acceleration.  Two is you have to very quick with your flap work, quick flap dumps to get the high instantaneous turn followed by quick retraction is a must to get the most out of a hog in a dogfight. This keeps as much control surface out of the air as you can, along with still getting the desired results.  If your flap buttons aren't within finger reach you better move them so they are.  The Corsair isn't the hardest plane to fly in this game, but It's one the busiest and takes a long time to get real proficient with.  But it's one of the few planes that can quickly transition from a B&Z fight to T&B and back again, it's very comfortable at both.

 :salute
BigRat   
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Saxman on August 04, 2011, 10:50:46 AM
The Corsair isn't the hardest plane to fly in this game, but It's one the busiest....
 

Very important point, that. To really get the most out of the Hog you're going to be working a LOT of your controls: throttle, flaps, rudder, trim, even the landing gear come into play (your mileage may vary, but while I recommend against using them IN a fight, they're very handy for preventing overspeed when making your initial dive). I STRONGLY recommend investing in a good set of rudder pedals as you really want to work that rudder, more probably than any other aircraft (I have always maintained that effective use of the RUDDER may be even MORE important than the flaps in the Corsair).
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: titanic3 on August 04, 2011, 11:20:09 AM
Thanks for the help and info guys.  :aok I'm understanding a lot more about E management now.

I went into the TA yesterday and asked Stogey for some help. I had the task of sticking on his 6 for as long as I could and I'm glad to say I sat there like glue. He was in a P38 and I was in a -1D.

One more question, for convergence, do you guys do point convergence or zone convergence? I currently set all the guns to 450 and I start firing at the moment 400 appears on the con. It works fine as long as I'm on their 6, but when they fly past me or I have to do a deflection shot, my bullets either shred them to bits or miss completely because they're all coming in 1 spot. With the latter happening more often than I'd like it to.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: bozon on August 04, 2011, 11:21:34 AM
I've never heard the term 'specific energy' and Google has failed me at least as far as how it applies to aircraft.  What does it mean and how do you apply it to ACM?
In science and engineering "specific" usually means "per mass" (or per other equivalent quantity that describes total amount ), like specific heat.

The absolute total energy is next to meaningless in the context of E fighting. When people talk about relative "energy" states, they usually mean specific energy.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Soulyss on August 04, 2011, 11:44:19 AM
Thanks for the help and info guys.  :aok I'm understanding a lot more about E management now.

I went into the TA yesterday and asked Stogey for some help. I had the task of sticking on his 6 for as long as I could and I'm glad to say I sat there like glue. He was in a P38 and I was in a -1D.

One more question, for convergence, do you guys do point convergence or zone convergence? I currently set all the guns to 450 and I start firing at the moment 400 appears on the con. It works fine as long as I'm on their 6, but when they fly past me or I have to do a deflection shot, my bullets either shred them to bits or miss completely because they're all coming in 1 spot. With the latter happening more often than I'd like it to.

Can't speak as much to the 38J and L because it's been a while since I flew either one with much regularity but in the 38G I have my hands full against the F4U.  I have to either more E going into the fight so that I can get above and work downhill or I have to press for a shot early in the fight, once E bleeds off and the fight slows down the F4U pretty much holds all the cards.  The J or L may have a little more margin for error because of the increased power and WEP but I imagine the options are pretty much the same, go pure E fight and try and get superior position or press for the shot early and hope. :)
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Saxman on August 04, 2011, 12:31:05 PM
Convergence is very much a personal preference thing. However I prefer a short range (200yds) and point convergence. The .50cal is an absolute buzzsaw at that range.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 04, 2011, 02:29:12 PM
I'd be willing to bet this scenario is the single biggest cause of new guy 'cheater' whines in the game.

I've never heard the term 'specific energy' and Google has failed me at least as far as how it applies to aircraft.  What does it mean and how do you apply it to ACM?

Wiley.

I learned this a couple of years ago, and it really started some things clicking for me personally with respect to energy overall, and how it applies practically.

(Glossed over some things here in the interest of simplicity).

If you merely think about energy as speed and altitude, it ignores the impact of weight.  If we consider the impact of weight on the maneuvering energy of the aircraft, then we get a better comparison of how much energy each aircraft has for maneuvering.

With this in mind, its easy to see how a Spit 16 (that weighs 9,000 lbs) flying at 15,000 feet and 380 mph TAS could have more "energy" than say a P-47N (at 16,000 lbs) flying at 20,000 feet and 380 mph.  I didn't do the math to check that result, but you get my point hopefully.  This is why higher is not always better, as Bozon and others stated earlier.

I probably shouldn't have used the term "specific energy" as it has a different actual meaning, but basically, you want to account for weight when you compare aircraft.  400 mph isn't as useful when you weigh 40,000 lbs as it is when you weigh 12,000.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: ink on August 04, 2011, 03:59:01 PM
I learned this a couple of years ago, and it really started some things clicking for me personally with respect to energy overall, and how it applies practically.

(Glossed over some things here in the interest of simplicity).

If you merely think about energy as speed and altitude, it ignores the impact of weight.  If we consider the impact of weight on the maneuvering energy of the aircraft, then we get a better comparison of how much energy each aircraft has for maneuvering.

With this in mind, its easy to see how a Spit 16 (that weighs 9,000 lbs) flying at 15,000 feet and 380 mph TAS could have more "energy" than say a P-47N (at 16,000 lbs) flying at 20,000 feet and 380 mph.  I didn't do the math to check that result, but you get my point hopefully.  This is why higher is not always better, as Bozon and others stated earlier.

I probably shouldn't have used the term "specific energy" as it has a different actual meaning, but basically, you want to account for weight when you compare aircraft.  400 mph isn't as useful when you weigh 40,000 lbs as it is when you weigh 12,000.

this is something I never considered, but then again I don't "think" when I fight I just react.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 04, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
If you merely think about energy as speed and altitude, it ignores the impact of weight.  If we consider the impact of weight on the maneuvering energy of the aircraft, then we get a better comparison of how much energy each aircraft has for maneuvering.

:aok

I probably shouldn't have used the term "specific energy" as it has a different actual meaning, but basically, you want to account for weight when you compare aircraft.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda - but you have it right :).  That's exactly what specific energy means, energy per unit weight.

--------
To further add to the insightful posts in this thread thus far here are some fundamental concepts that will hopefully help the OP continue to grasp energy management.

(http://www.av8n.com/how/img48/energy-con.png)

This is a nifty diagram that shows an aircraft's energy relationships and how they can be exchanged.  Of course the key is for a given aircraft the rate of energy exchange is determined by specific constraints governed by aircraft specific excess power (Stoney's favorite topic).

For more details on work, energy, power, and energy retention feel free to look at this old post: How is N-R-G retention determined? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,209163.msg2488778.html#msg2488778)

Hope thats helpful!
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 04, 2011, 05:10:00 PM
400 mph isn't as useful when you weigh 40,000 lbs as it is when you weigh 12,000.

Actually it is, that's why heavier aircraft zoom better.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 04, 2011, 05:14:15 PM
Actually it is, that's why heavier aircraft zoom better.

So the C-5 should zoom better than a F-15 then right? ;)

(EDIT: given the same thrust) The heavier aircraft zooms worse.  Trust me.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 04, 2011, 05:22:03 PM
So the C-5 should zoom better than a F-15 then right? ;)

I meant if all else is equal.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 04, 2011, 05:40:45 PM
I meant if all else is equal.

Yes, if all else is equal the heavier aircraft will zoom worse.  :)  Otherwise it would be aeroballistics and not aerodynamics.

Mace sums up why nicely here: Dispelling myth of increased weight improving zoom (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,266321.msg3323074.html#msg3323074)

If that's not enough buried in that thread are calcs to drive the point home here: Dispelling myth of increased weight improving zoom Part Deux (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,266321.msg3328531.html#msg3328531)

Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Edgar on August 04, 2011, 05:53:58 PM

I probably shouldn't have used the term "specific energy" as it has a different actual meaning, but basically, you want to account for weight when you compare aircraft.  400 mph isn't as useful when you weigh 40,000 lbs as it is when you weigh 12,000.

Unless I am looking at something incorrectly, 400 mph= 400 mph regardless of the mass of the aircraft. The kinetic energy would be exactly the same in this case but the potential energy of the 40,000 lb aircraft would be much higher, so if altitude is the same and speed is the same than the 40,000 airplane would have more total energy than the 12,000 airplane (absolute). I understand that in some situations the 12,000 lb plane would have some advantages in this state, but wouldn't the 40,000 lb airplane also have some advantages in the same circumstance? I realize that specific "E" would be higher in the 12,000 airplane, but I cant see where this would always be an advantage (such as in a dive) (maybe I'm not looking at this correctly).

Can you please clarify this because I am not seeing correctly here if this is the case.

ps. Im not being argumentative or disrespectful here, I am just trying to visualize this and learn.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 04, 2011, 06:07:00 PM
this is something I never considered, but then again I don't "think" when I fight I just react.

I'm not saying you need to keep a calculator next to the stick and do these computations in the cockpit.  All I'm saying is that if you're flying a heavy fighter like a U.S. ride, and you see a lighter fighter below you, and you know it has speed, watch out, because the energy advantage you think you have may not be there.  We've all seen the guy on 200 or on Country channel screaming about how some La-7 or Spit-16 climbed 5,000 feet and shot him down at altitude in a matter of seconds.  Don't be that guy...  :)
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 04, 2011, 06:16:57 PM
Unless I am looking at something incorrectly, 400 mph= 400 mph regardless of the mass of the aircraft. The kinetic energy would be exactly the same in this case but the potential energy of the 40,000 lb aircraft would be much higher, so if altitude is the same and speed is the same than the 40,000 airplane would have more total energy than the 12,000 airplane (absolute). I understand that in some situations the 12,000 lb plane would have some advantages in this state, but wouldn't the 40,000 lb airplane also have some advantages in the same circumstance? I realize that specific "E" would be higher in the 12,000 airplane, but I cant see where this would always be an advantage (such as in a dive) (maybe I'm not looking at this correctly).

Can you please clarify this because I am not seeing correctly here if this is the case.

ps. Im not being argumentative or disrespectful here, I am just trying to visualize this and learn.

This is where I glossed over some terms...

In order to climb, accelerate, turn, or otherwise maneuver, that 40,000 lb aircraft is going to obliterate its theoretical advantage because of its extra weight.  Tango mentioned the term "specific excess power" and that's the true metric that should be used for comparison.  I was suggesting that a cursory comparison could be made merely by considering the theoretical amount of energy possessed by one aircraft with respect to its weight.  I highly recommend that you read through both of the posts Tango added.  Mace's discussion and Tango's considerable effort on explaining zoom climbs, IMO, are probably 2 of the top 10 threads on aerodynamics in the game.  Badboy has a few as well, and I encourage you to read about Energy Maneuverability Diagrams as well.  Anyway, I can't think of a quick way to fully answer your question, and I need to go grab some dinner.  I'll see if I can't post something more substantive later.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Edgar on August 04, 2011, 06:19:29 PM
This is where I glossed over some terms...

In order to climb, accelerate, turn, or otherwise maneuver, that 40,000 lb aircraft is going to obliterate its theoretical advantage because of its extra weight.  Tango mentioned the term "specific excess power" and that's the true metric that should be used for comparison.  I was suggesting that a cursory comparison could be made merely by considering the theoretical amount of energy possessed by one aircraft with respect to its weight.  I highly recommend that you read through both of the posts Tango added.  Mace's discussion and Tango's considerable effort on explaining zoom climbs, IMO, are probably 2 of the top 10 threads on aerodynamics in the game.  Badboy has a few as well, and I encourage you to read about Energy Maneuverability Diagrams as well.  Anyway, I can't think of a quick way to fully answer your question, and I need to go grab some dinner.  I'll see if I can't post something more substantive later.

Thanks Stoney,

I appreciate it. I will read thru those posts and see if I can get a grasp of it.

<S>
Edgar
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 04, 2011, 06:23:58 PM
Yes, if all else is equal the heavier aircraft will zoom worse.  :) 

It is also true that, if all else is equal the heavier aircraft will zoom better.  :)
All I have to do is adjust zoom length and climb angle to get desirable sin value.






 
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: ink on August 04, 2011, 06:34:03 PM
I'm not saying you need to keep a calculator next to the stick and do these computations in the cockpit.  All I'm saying is that if you're flying a heavy fighter like a U.S. ride, and you see a lighter fighter below you, and you know it has speed, watch out, because the energy advantage you think you have may not be there.  We've all seen the guy on 200 or on Country channel screaming about how some La-7 or Spit-16 climbed 5,000 feet and shot him down at altitude in a matter of seconds.  Don't be that guy...  :)
lol never been that guy...I am one of the guys, that gets said about.....I have been called a cheater no less then 15 times since I have been here, especially when I flew the hurri2 :devil
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Guppy35 on August 04, 2011, 06:55:28 PM
this is something I never considered, but then again I don't "think" when I fight I just react.

Isn't that the truth.  My eyes glaze over when folks start talking about the ins and outs of ACM.  I react.  After all these years, I think I react the right way for the most part, but I couldn't tell you what I did or why, just whether it worked or not :)
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: ink on August 04, 2011, 07:18:37 PM
Isn't that the truth.  My eyes glaze over when folks start talking about the ins and outs of ACM.  I react.  After all these years, I think I react the right way for the most part, but I couldn't tell you what I did or why, just whether it worked or not :)

yup..but by now you know what works, and when it works :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Big Rat on August 04, 2011, 08:13:02 PM
Isn't that the truth.  My eyes glaze over when folks start talking about the ins and outs of ACM.  I react.  After all these years, I think I react the right way for the most part, but I couldn't tell you what I did or why, just whether it worked or not :)

That's the trick to teaching BFM/ACM. You have to look back at what you did and then explain why or why it didn't work.  When I first started training, I had to think about all the things I did automatically and never thought about, and figure out why it worked.

 :salute
BigRat   

 
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dstrip2 on August 04, 2011, 11:38:51 PM
slightly off topic, but...

[hijack]

ive been lurking and reading posts on the forum for a few months, and i'm very glad that the guys that know what they're talking about consistently show up to help players out and to logically work their way through disagreements. i soak up that kind of reading. its great to have people on here with real experience in varied fields that apply to this game share what they know.
<S> to you guys that help out us n00bs and spoon-feed us complicated aerodynamic principles, even when we are dense and slightly belligerent. y'all know who you are.


would it be possible perhaps to get one master kick-butt aerodynamics thread started with links to threads/posts/information like dtango, stoney, and others have posted here? ive seen many many great diagrams and links... there has been a wealth of information divulged here on the BBS that im sure has been great for the community that has seen it; but unfortunately some threads and links seem to get buried and i'd hate for the community to 'forget' the stuff that has taken great effort and patience to present. just a thought. heck, it may already exist and ive just been blind.

i might not be the right one to decide what is accurate and worthy of such a thread, but still...
just throwing the idea out there.


[/hijack]


to the OP: soda's aircraft evaluation pages are a great place to find out plane specific stuff. loads of good and useful info, reminds me slightly of how an auto magazine might read if it were reviewing airplanes instead of cars. also, "fighter combat" is a really good book if you're serious about flight sims in general. i have referenced it for anything from AH2 to LOMAC, and some consider it the 'bible of combat flight sims'. i believe there is a free .pdf file floating around on the web someplace but cant seem to find it

<S>
Dstrip2
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: SIK1 on August 04, 2011, 11:39:01 PM
That's the trick to teaching BFM/ACM. You have to look back at what you did and then explain why or why it didn't work.  When I first started training, I had to think about all the things I did automatically and never thought about, and figure out why it worked.

 :salute
BigRat   

 

See I have a hard time defining exactly what I do. Sometime after watching film I realize that I'm not doing quite the same thing as I thought I was doing. When some one asks me how I did something first thing that comes to my mind is. I moved the stick around, probably pressed on the rudder pedals a little, and more than likely the throttle was moved around some. If I think about something like a rolling scissors it screws me all up. So as those that now me I try not to think to much when I'm flying.

That's why I have the up most respect for the Trainer Corp. A selfless group that volunteer their time trying to pass along their knowledge. 

:salute
to you all
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: morfiend on August 05, 2011, 12:17:34 AM
Isn't that the truth.  My eyes glaze over when folks start talking about the ins and outs of ACM.  I react.  After all these years, I think I react the right way for the most part, but I couldn't tell you what I did or why, just whether it worked or not :)


  These are some words to ponder!   I cant count the number of times a player has come into the TA and ask to work on ACM. When I try to break it down for them,immelman,splitEss,pitchback,sliceback,breakturn and of course the barrel roll,they just dont believe it. "There's got to be more to it than that". But those are the basics and you must learn them and then what??

   It's the choreography of those simple moves,putting them together to form a dance,hopefully with a bitter ending! :devil

  That takes time and you know you put the time in when it's instinctive and you dont have to think about what to do and when.





   :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: flatiron1 on August 05, 2011, 07:42:25 AM
zoom climb test p47d vs p47n


http://www.spitfireperformance.com/p-47/p-47n-zoom.pdf
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 05, 2011, 08:14:11 AM
zoom climb test p47d vs p47n


http://www.spitfireperformance.com/p-47/p-47n-zoom.pdf

Its amazing what extra horsepower and 10% more wing area will do...  This is one of those comparisons where you'd have to compute excess power in order to illustrate the difference.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: FLS on August 05, 2011, 08:50:22 AM
It is also true that, if all else is equal the heavier aircraft will zoom better.  :)
All I have to do is adjust zoom length and climb angle to get desirable sin value.


So you just adjust the climb angle to a negative value?
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Guppy35 on August 06, 2011, 12:37:18 AM
That's the trick to teaching BFM/ACM. You have to look back at what you did and then explain why or why it didn't work.  When I first started training, I had to think about all the things I did automatically and never thought about, and figure out why it worked.

 :salute
BigRat   

 

I wish I could explain it better.  It's a bit like when folks start talking about the specifics of particular planes.  I can tell you about the pilots, who flew what, where, what the markings were etc.  But start with the technical stuff on engine performance, wing loadings etc.  and it loses me.  Guess that's why I'm a history/English guy, not math/engineering :)
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Noah17 on August 06, 2011, 09:07:27 AM
I scanned through this post quickly and one thing I didn't see mentioned (I hope I didn't miss it) was the beauty of Lag Pursuit. Something that I think is not discussed much even though it is mentioned a lot at the same time....Weird statement I know....

Often Lag Pursuit is mentioned in the process of catching a faster plane by using angles; however in the F4U (or any plane) it is best used for gaining and maintaining an E advantage over your opponent. Knowing where to point the nose of your aircraft would seem like an easy/instinctive thing to do but, it goes against the emotion of wanting to kill your opponent as quickly as possible and pointing right at him. It's something that can only be learned with patience and (IMO) is the most important ability/understanding to have if your fighting as an "E" attacker rather than fighting as a "TNB" attacker. This is why "E" fighting is more difficult to master. Newer sticks don't have or don't understand the importance of patience in pursuit combined with angles. I'm not a patient person and this still causes me problems today. While trying to fight to maintain/gain "E" it is important to understand that you should not expect to kill the bad guy in the first pass/merge. It is the second, third or, even fourth that will give you the shot you want for the kill....He'll be hanging on his prop waiting for the axe to fall......

Knowing when to abandon Lead and, Pure Pursuit to opt for Lag Pursuit is important. If you don't have the ability to turn  or dive on your opponent and kill him in the first pass it is best to angle in the way that is most likely to allow you to kill him in the second pass. The most common example would be: In your F4U you get on the "6" of  an early Spit. He brakes hard in a flat turn or even an obleak split S of sorts, you then allow your nose to stay behind him and go in to a Yo Yo and come down on his tail......That's an obvious maneuver....... However; many times in a fight you won't "drop" on to the "6" of a Spit. You'll be co-alt and co-E with him at his 3 O'clock with 90 degrees deflection. If you point your nose right at him or go for lead pursuit ahead of him he'll most likely turn in to you for the HO. Not what you want here....In order to gain E and bleed his you should probably point your nose slightly behind and below his tail (just a little) make him turn hard in to you and, pass him while he's still turning to get guns on you. You then pull up and to the right in a Yo Yo. This forces him to turn 360 degrees, adds energy to you and bleeds his. If he tries to follow you up, you corkscrew around him then gun him down when he stalls. The slightly nose down in your pass behind his tail is important as you're gaining/maintaining E while he's destroying his. He does not have time to gain it back and you're above him; just like that the fight is over. I will mention here that judging your opponents E correctly is obviously important and, the separation you use (being just behind him) is important. You don't want to be on the line of his turn radius as he may be able to hold just enough E to go vertical and shoot you.

There are other ways to use Lag Pursuit that would be helpful in the situation you described. This is just one and I hope it was helpful.

Salute!
 :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: mtnman on August 06, 2011, 11:11:29 AM
thanks all for the posts and info :aok trying to learn the corsairs a bit atm and this is really useful

would be great to see some film of an f4u demonstrating this  :pray


This is a fairly old film, and not terribly exciting, but it's interesting in its application of E.  I posted this film in a thread a while back in response to the other pilot being upset that I was able to steal his energy/alt advantage, and turn it against him.  It's also interesting because it's an "uphill" fight.

He was also confused/upset that I was able to keep up with or surpass his climb at the end, in a plane match-up where he "knew" his Spit16 should have been able to out-climb my F4U.

There's nothing fancy at work here, no fancy ACM's, and some pretty poor gunnery, but it does illustrate how easy it can be to take away an energy advantage if you understand the concepts at work.  In his defense, this pilot knew it was me he was fighting with.  I'd killed him a few times already and he'd come from a different base with an alt advantage.  He was leery of diving right in on me because he'd tried that already, so was "playing it safe", which is what allowed me to draw him into a casual tail chase, match our E, and then take the advantage.

The F4U trumps the Spit16 in a tail chase, and in a high-speed shallow-angle climb...

http://www.4shared.com/file/UspKQb5x/Dazy_Spit16_long_0405.html
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 06, 2011, 12:21:06 PM
Its amazing what extra horsepower and 10% more wing area will do...  This is one of those comparisons where you'd have to compute excess power in order to illustrate the difference.

P-47C v. Spitfire IX

Performance – In level speed the Spitfire always accelerated away from the P-47, but the P-47 showed itself slightly the faster at 20,000 feet and at 28,000; there was, however, very little to choose in actual performance at these heights. Above this height the Spitfire becomes slightly the faster.

Climb – The rate of climb if the Spitfire is much higher at these heights than that of the P-47C. Climbing together from 25,000 to 30,000 feet, the P-47 took about ½ minute longer than the Spitfire. The difference, however, is not nearly so marked in zoom climbs, and if the P-47 dives slightly and then pulls up in the climb, its performance is similar to that of the Spitfire over limited intervals.

Dive – The P-47 is able to out-dive the Spitfire quite easily.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 06, 2011, 01:05:45 PM
Its amazing what extra horsepower and 10% more wing area will do...  This is one of those comparisons where you'd have to compute excess power in order to illustrate the difference.

What excess power? HP/lb? Wing area? How about wing loading?
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 03:46:21 PM
P-47C v. Spitfire IX.............

Climb – The rate of climb if the Spitfire is much higher at these heights than that of the P-47C. .............. The difference, however, is not nearly so marked in zoom climbs, and if the P-47 dives slightly and then pulls up in the climb, its performance is similar to that of the Spitfire over limited intervals.

Dive – The P-47 is able to out-dive the Spitfire quite easily.

Do you mean to infer these tests show weight helps the P-47C zoom and dive better?  It would be a mistake to make that inference. 

Thrust, drag, and velocity in accelerated flight (e.g. zoom climb, dive) varies dramatically as the aircraft accelerates/decelerates.  Understanding why the P-47C & Spit IX behave as reported means accounting for weight AND thrust, drag, and velocity simultaneously & as they change dynamically.  The reported differences don't give us enough detail to appropriately assess all variables to demonstrate what's really going on.

And we have such a relationship that combines them all simultaneously to help us understood, specific excess power (Ps) - of which Stoney is referring too:

Ps = (thrust - drag) * velocity / weight

It's an innocent looking equation but be very careful, that thing is DYNAMIC meaning in accelerated flight the only variable that is constant in that equation is weight (assuming 0 mass change).  It's well known aerodynamically that the airplane with the greatest time average Ps in a zoom climb will out zoom one with a lower Ps.  If you look at that relationship you can see that all else being equal (thrust, drag, velocity) increasing weight ALWAYS reduces Ps.

(http://thetongsweb.net/images/ps-weight.jpg)

Yes, it's more complicated than all that if you want to understand the effect of mass in it all (please see my provided links for details) but the bottom line is Ps is reduced by increased weight which reduces zoom over the duration of a zoom climb.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 03:56:44 PM
What excess power? HP/lb? Wing area? How about wing loading?

If you'll note in the conclusion portion of the P-47D vs. P-47N zoom climb test report it reads...

"Above 5,000 feet the P-47N was superior.  This advantage in zoom can be mainly attributed to the higher power available of the P-47N."

"power available"=Thrust*Velocity portion of our Ps (specific excess power) equation.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 06, 2011, 05:22:26 PM
What excess power? HP/lb? Wing area? How about wing loading?

Stock P-47D-30 = 2200 HP on WEP with 300 ft^2 of wing area.

Stock P-47N      = 2800 HP on WEP with 330 ft^2 of wing area.  That's 600 HP and 10% more wing area = substantial performance difference.

Wing loading and power loading without context mean nothing.

But, specific excess power is a totally different thing.  See Tango's post above.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: bozon on August 06, 2011, 05:24:32 PM
...
Ps = (thrust - drag) * velocity / weight
...
If you look at that relationship you can see that all else being equal (thrust, drag, velocity) increasing weight ALWAYS reduces Ps.
It always reduces Ps (in absolute value...), but not always the height of the zoom. Ps only tell you the rate of energy gain (per mass). It is not a direct measurement of the zoom. The benefit of the mass is implicit in this equation - it is in the time and the sign of Ps. Note that if Ps is negative, weight actually INCREASE Ps!

So, when is Ps negative? when the thrust is weaker than the drag. Most commonly this would be when the speed is high enough, so if the zoom is started from very high speed, the weight gives an advantage in the first part of the zoom - this is a ballistic-like phase (a stone thrown up into viscous air). Then as the speed drops, so does the drag and the thrust will eventually turn Ps positive - this is the climb phase, where engine pull significantly affects the dynamics and weight becomes a hindrance. Just remember that the drag dominates when the velocity is high, and we are multiplying by velocity to get Ps, so it becomes highly negative very fast. Thrust will dominate at low velocities, so if (thrust-drag) part increase, velocity typically decrease and Ps does not increase as much.

The time domain is a little more complicated. There is a third scale that affects the dynamics. Put in the term used in the Ps expression: "g" the gravity acceleration which competes with "thrust/mass" and "drag/mass". In WWII fighters, g is always the largest since the thrust is no where near as strong as gravity. This is why the differences between planes are not huge.

The biggest effect of some extra thrust/mass is how the zoom will look like close to its peak, rather then how high it will be (even though it will). The thrust, even if much weaker than gravity will make the last part of the zoom longer (in TIME) where the plane will appear to be "hanging on its prop". It is not really going anywhere (this is when the speed approaches 0), but it is not starting to fall either. Note that in the Ps expression, low velocity means small Ps and when it is close to zero it does not matter much how close it is. This is the phase where the plane gains the most from having low mass - but it is not much in terms of gaining alt because the velocity is low!

When the thrust starts to be a significant fraction of the weight, then things really start to change and mass makes a huge difference. Of course, for planes with thrust>weight, there is no proper "zoom" anymore - it is just a vertical climb.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 06, 2011, 06:21:14 PM
It's well known aerodynamically that the airplane with the greatest time average Ps in a zoom climb will out zoom one with a lower Ps.

What Stoney and you don't take into account (also well known) is state of energy (at zoom climb entry) and conservation of momentum.
Add that to your equation and it becomes halluva lot more complicated but also much closer to real life zoom climb tests.

Even today, with all the computing power, computational fluid dynamics models have to be confirmed by wind tunnel and test flight results, because in average they're 1.5-3% off. Simplified formulas for multitude of that. Why? Whilst in principle correct, they're extremely simplified.

There's a reason why fluid dynamics (and with that aerodynamics) is so damn complex.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 06, 2011, 06:54:08 PM
What Stoney and you don't take into account

Tango, I told ya we forgot something!!!  I guess I need to get back in my books...   :noid
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 06, 2011, 07:21:33 PM
This advantage in zoom can be mainly attributed to the higher power available of the P-47N."[/i][/size]

Of course, it had 18% more power at only 13% more weight.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 06, 2011, 08:37:58 PM
If i get it right, the airplane with the highest thrust/weight ratio will out zoom the other if starting at the same speed? That's why a f-15 will outzoom a brewster  :devil
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 08:43:21 PM
If i get it right, the airplane with the highest thrust/weight ratio will out zoom the other if starting at the same speed? That's why a f-15 will outzoom a brewster  :devil

Yes, more or less.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: pervert on August 06, 2011, 08:44:10 PM
Theres nothing more unsexy than fighter planes and equations  :old:
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 08:47:41 PM
Theres nothing more unsexy than fighter planes and equations  :old:

:)

"Beware the lessons of a fighter pilot who would rather fly a slide rule than kick your ass!"  Commander Ron "Mugs" McKeown, USN, Commander of the USN FWS "Top Gun" School.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 06, 2011, 08:49:40 PM
:)

"Beware the lessons of a fighter pilot who would rather fly a slide rule than kick your ass!"  Commander Ron "Mugs" McKeown, USN, Commander of the USN FWS "Top Gun" School.

Sure, one got to have a grasp of these principle but when it come down to combat there is only brain and gut out there.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Puma44 on August 06, 2011, 09:04:10 PM
If i get it right, the airplane with the highest thrust/weight ratio will out zoom the other if starting at the same speed? That's why a f-15 will outzoom a brewster  :devil

Zactly right!  :aok  You've got all the fomulas boiled down to the basic "pilot big picture".  An understanding of how to apply lift vector whilst maneuvering against an opponent is also very helpful.   :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 09:08:43 PM
bozon - I agree with most of what you said.  Two points I would make:

1) Ps = (T-D)*V/W = rate_of_climb + rate_of_flight_path_velocity_ change.  Yes, Ps is not a direct measure of zoom height.  However it includes a direct measure of rate of change of climb, thus the time average of Ps over the course of a zoom climb tells you which airplane is going to zoom higher.

EDIT:-------------
just a correction "rate_of_flight_path_velocity_ change" isn't the correct term.  Here's the equation:
Ps = (T-D)*V/W = dH/dt + (V/g*dV/dt)...
dV/dt is what I was referring to as "rate_of_flight_path_velocity_ change"
------------------

2) Mass absolutely is a factor which is why this topic totally throws people.  The question is how much and when.  Typically the portion of a zoom climb where T<D is very short in duration thus extra mass quickly becomes a detriment.  In the links I've posted above I've done some examples to demonstrate this (numerical integration over the time domain).  The fact that (for our prop aircraft) T increases with decreasing velocity while D decreases with decreasing velocity further ensures that T<D is only over a short duration.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 09:15:31 PM
What Stoney and you don't take into account (also well known) is state of energy (at zoom climb entry) and conservation of momentum.
Add that to your equation and it becomes halluva lot more complicated but also much closer to real life zoom climb tests.

Ah, my good sir but Ps absolutely takes momentum into account.  The derivation of Ps comes directly from F=ma.  The right-side m*a is the rate of change of momentum. Momentum is completely factored in.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 09:27:09 PM
Tango, I told ya we forgot something!!!  I guess I need to get back in my books...   :noid

What I forgot was to drink a few more frozen margaritas :cry.  Everything always magically becomes more rational after that  :D.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Midway on August 06, 2011, 09:32:08 PM
bozon - I agree with most of what you said.  Two points I would make:

1) Ps = (T-D)*V/W = rate_of_climb + rate_of_flight_path_velocity_ change.  Yes, Ps is not a direct measure of zoom height.  However it includes a direct measure of rate of change of climb, thus the time average of Ps over the course of a zoom climb tells you which airplane is going to zoom higher.

2) Mass absolutely is a factor which is why this topic totally throws people.  The question is how much and when.  Typically the portion of a zoom climb where T<D is very short in duration thus extra mass quickly becomes a detriment.  In the links I've posted above I've done some examples to demonstrate this (numerical integration over the time domain).  The fact that (for our prop aircraft) T increases with decreasing velocity while D decreases with decreasing velocity further ensures that T<D is only over a short duration.

 :headscratch:  :rolleyes:

 :old: :airplane: :joystick:

Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 06, 2011, 09:36:18 PM
:headscratch:  :rolleyes:

 :old: :airplane: :joystick:



 :lol, it all makes a lot more sense after a few stiff drinks.  Why do you think hitech likes scotch so much :D.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 07, 2011, 12:20:16 AM
Ah, my good sir but Ps absolutely takes momentum into account.  The derivation of Ps comes directly from F=ma.  The right-side m*a is the rate of change of momentum. Momentum is completely factored in.

The formula used to derive graph you posted is:
(http://sierra-host.net/bb/ps01.gif)
In this case, it illustrates the relation between Ps weight and speed. That's all. It has no other use.  Also initial delta E is not accounted for.

The point being is that Stoney and you hang up on the premise that reaching certain altitude (up to power deficit) the heavier aircraft will need more energy. This is correct.

But not many in game really care about zoom climb performance from 1k to lets say 15k alt. Most care about zoom of 3-4k from starting alt at most.

With initial E advantage of heavier aircraft, up to reasonable alt necessary to establish advantage after merge, heavies will arrive at that alt sooner (most of the times). Here, half a second advantage is all what's needed.

And hence, my reply "It is also true that, if all else is equal the heavier aircraft will zoom better" to your claim "Yes, if all else is equal the heavier aircraft will zoom worse."

Both statements are true.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 07, 2011, 12:47:29 AM
Specific excess power is everything in comparing performance.  Ps is used to climb, accelerate, or maneuver the aircraft, and includes the mojo that defines turn performance.  It can tell you what your best climb speed is, what your best rate of climb is, how your performance envelope compares to other aircraft.  It is a comprehensive metric for aircraft comparison, and unfortunately, to determine it accurately, its very time consuming.  If you understand Ps, you understand 80-90% of what makes airplanes do what they do.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 07, 2011, 02:08:45 AM
Specific excess power is everything in comparing performance.

Definition is actually quite simple, and no, it's not even remotely close to everything in comparing performance.

includes the mojo that defines turn performance.

Not quite

It can tell you what your best climb speed is, what your best rate of climb is

It can, but it's not given.

If you understand Ps, you understand 80-90% of what makes airplanes do what they do.

 :rofl You wish





Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 07, 2011, 02:21:49 AM
:rofl You wish

Whatever bro.  You crack a copy of a flight mechanics and performance text, and it will be plastered all over the place.  But, humor me and tell me what you think we should be comparing here?  If we're wrong, what's right?
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: dtango on August 07, 2011, 02:29:34 AM
2bighorn...

Because it's been repeated so much I too believed that heavier a/c builds up more speed in a dive and then retains that energy better into a zoom climb vs. lighter aircraft.  Running through loads of dive/climb modeling has shown me this is completely misleading.

The question is not if increased mass makes a difference.  The question is when and how much.  I know of no other way to fully answer the question but quantitatively thru simulations via numerical integration.  Over the years, running many simulations for myself has shown me increased weight is a relatively minor factor.     

Yes, using a procrustean definition of zoom, narrowing it only to a particular moment of a zoom then at some point more mass helps.  I just think it's non-helpful to repeat the heavier a/c zooms better mantra when this only applies to a narrow band & of minimal relative significance. 
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 07, 2011, 03:05:48 AM
Whatever bro.  You crack a copy of a flight mechanics and performance text, and it will be plastered all over the place.  But, humor me and tell me what you think we should be comparing here?  If we're wrong, what's right?

Ever heard of gliders? No excess power whatsoever, therefore no Ps to speak of. By your account, we wouldn't know of 80-90% of what makes them fly.

2bighorn...

Because it's been repeated so much I too believed that heavier a/c builds up more speed in a dive and then retains that energy better into a zoom climb vs. lighter aircraft.  Running through loads of dive/climb modeling has shown me this is completely misleading.

The question is not if increased mass makes a difference.  The question is when and how much.  I know of no other way to fully answer the question but quantitatively thru simulations via numerical integration.  Over the years, running many simulations for myself has shown me increased weight is a relatively minor factor.     

Yes, using a procrustean definition of zoom, narrowing it only to a particular moment of a zoom then at some point more mass helps.  I just think it's non-helpful to repeat the heavier a/c zooms better mantra when this only applies to a narrow band & of minimal relative significance. 

Lets just say we shouldn't generalize. But otherwise, I agree with you.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: FLS on August 07, 2011, 07:17:47 AM
Gravity is proportional to mass.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 07, 2011, 08:25:24 AM
Gravity is proportional to mass.

so is inertia. they counter-balance through a direct relation. A heavier object does not fall faster nor does it accelerate faster. At least not because of gravity. The terminal velocity might be higher or lower when you factor in drag.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 07, 2011, 08:30:38 AM
Ever heard of gliders? No excess power whatsoever, therefore no Ps to speak of. By your account, we wouldn't know of 80-90% of what makes them fly

Gliders are usually very light in relation with their wing surface so they generate plenty of lift. And gliders usually falls. You are able to climb in them but it requires some specific atmospheric conditions to happen. Namely updraft. And then it's a little like powered flight, only with a "wind" engine. I've been in a glider 2 times in my life(Canadian air cadet ones), and both time once we released the tow plane, it was down from there.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: bozon on August 08, 2011, 07:30:55 AM
Because it's been repeated so much I too believed that heavier a/c builds up more speed in a dive and then retains that energy better into a zoom climb vs. lighter aircraft.  Running through loads of dive/climb modeling has shown me this is completely misleading.
dtango, I fully agree with your theory, but I am not completely confident in its application to reality. There is a reason why pilots believed the P47 zoomed better than other AC that had better Ps ( though if one goes high enough, the P47 wins in Ps when the other's engine dies of hypoxia...). At the same time they ALL preferred less weight given the option, but this is not strictly with zoom ability in mind. Equal planes were never considered - it was not a P47 vs. a P47 with a ballast stone in it, but a P47 against a P51, or a 109. If the planes have only a small difference in power loading, the kinematic part (weight and drag) play a larger role.

One reason for advantage of heavier aircrafts is that pilots were more worried about the initial part of the zoom. The threat range for gunfire was quite short and gaining a few 10s of feet DURING the zoom could be enough to get them out/in of the threat. Higher mass gives an advantage in the early zoom when starting from high speed. The last part of the zoom is where power loading dominates and where the planes are flopping about, left them too little control to make a shot - I doubt many pilots of high torque planes will be keen on kicking the rudder to align the shot, while on the verge of a stall with the nose pointed straight up.

The second related possible consideration is that we integrate the zoom too long. Most of the advantage of a light plane with (just a little!) better Ps comes in the last stages of the zoom, when it is crawling up close to the stall. We assume that the pilot will keep his noise pointed up, full throttle and fight the plane till its starts falling backward. I seriously believe that most pilots will not go as far as this and terminate the zoom much earlier. Doing a tail slide is one thing, doing a tail slide at full power... that sounds a bit dangerous and likely end up in a spin. We hear many reports of planes that were hard to control at a steep angle, full power climb. It was supposedly one of the defense moves of the P-38 to go into a steep spiral climb to the right so high torque 109/190 will not be able to follow and eventually flip over to the left. I do not know if this is really true, but this is the anecdote.

Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: FLS on August 08, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
so is inertia. they counter-balance through a direct relation. A heavier object does not fall faster nor does it accelerate faster. At least not because of gravity. The terminal velocity might be higher or lower when you factor in drag.

A heavier aircraft falls the same speed as a lighter one in a vacuum. In atmosphere a heavier aircraft gains more thrust from gravity than a similar lighter aircraft. This is why more weight makes a sailplane fly faster but doesn't change it's glide ratio.

Since gravity has a vector the heavier aircraft only benefits from it's weight when  descending or flying level. As soon as you nose up to zoom the heavier aircraft is at a disadvantage.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 02:30:27 PM
A heavier aircraft falls the same speed as a lighter one in a vacuum. In atmosphere a heavier aircraft gains more thrust from gravity than a similar lighter aircraft.

Gravity's acceleration is constant regardless of the mass of the object. On earth it's 9.2m/s. Up to terminal velocity which is affected by the drag imposed by the shape of the specific object. As planes have roughly the same shape, they accelerate at about the same rate at first until they reach a point where drag dictate the final velocity of the fall. If what you said were true, heavier object would fall faster on earth(which has already been proved wrong by experiment). Similarly shaped object will acheive a very close terminal velocity, determined solely by the amount of drag they generate. A steel ball does not fall faster than a wooden one of the same size, even with a big mass differential. Now planes are not inert object, and they usually fly powered so their straight down acceleration rate will be (9.2m/s(gravity constant) + whatever the engine add minus drag). That makes a big difference. And it comes down again to thrust/weight ratio. Why? To answer that, we have to define what is acceleration. Acceleration is a change of velocity along a vector. To change the velocity, you have to apply enough force to overcome inertia. To apply it to powered flight, acceleration is proportionnal to the ability of the engine to overcome the inertia of the mass of the plane(and drag, that's why the faster you go the slower you accelerate. think about the time between 0-100 vs 200-300). Now to understand how this act, we must go back to the basic 4 forces that act on a plane : gravity, lift, thrust, and drag. When flying level, gravity is balanced by lift. When in a climb, some of the engine power is used to fight gravity and the extra lift is used to climb. Now if a plane point straight up, gravity sole opposite force is thrust as the lift vector now point parallel to the horizon. Deceleration rate is a function of (gravity constant - engine thrust - drag). A higher thrust/weight ratio will let you acheive a higher altitude. When thrust/weight ratio exceed 1:1, we have a craft that will accelerate pointing straight up, like a rocket on the launch pad or the space shuttle. Weight is not an advantage nor is it a disadvantage as long as you got a big enough engine to get you moving. A lot of factor come into play but it boils down to the aformentionned 4 forces. 3 of them are dynamic, 1 is not. You cannot change the laws of physics.

Now the question about how this is all modeled in the game is a completely different beast. But with what i've already seen iof the game, I'm sure HTC are already aware of all this.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 08, 2011, 02:43:38 PM
When thrust/weight ratio exceed 1:1, we have a craft that will accelerate pointing straight up, like a rocket on the launch pad or the space shuttle. Weight is not an advantage nor is it a disadvantage as long as you got a big enough engine to get you moving. A lot of factor come into play but it boils down to the aformentionned 4 forces. 3 of them are dynamic, 1 is not. You cannot change the laws of physics.

But with our aircraft in this game, none of them have a thrust to weight ratio that gets even close to 1:1 even in full WEP.  Thrust to weight ratio isn't a good metric to use with prop aircraft anyway--that's more of a jet thing.  Power to weight ratio is the metric used to characterize propeller aircraft, and to compute power, you have to account for the BHP at whatever altitude and propeller efficiency. 

Anyway, weight will always be a limiting performance factor with the planes we have in-game.  Every plane in this game will suffer a performance penalty when their weight is increased, and this applies to zoom climbs, turns, whatever...
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 02:50:57 PM
But with our aircraft in this game, none of them have a thrust to weight ratio that gets even close to 1:1 even in full WEP.  Thrust to weight ratio isn't a good metric to use with prop aircraft anyway--that's more of a jet thing.  Power to weight ratio is the metric used to characterize propeller aircraft, and to compute power, you have to account for the BHP at whatever altitude and propeller efficiency.  

Anyway, weight will always be a limiting performance factor with the planes we have in-game.  Every plane in this game will suffer a performance penalty when their weight is increased, and this applies to zoom climbs, turns, whatever...

I get the point. What I wrote was an effort in generalisation to illustrate the principle behind it, not taking into account the specific of ww2 planes and propeller and engine and such that complicate the thing to a point it's hard to grasp.

I'd like to point out though that if you factor propeller efficiency with engine power and other factor I dont even remotly know of, you get a measure of the thrust available at any point in time.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: FLS on August 08, 2011, 03:49:29 PM
So why does a sailplane fly faster when it's heavier?   :D
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Stoney on August 08, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
I get the point. What I wrote was an effort in generalisation to illustrate the principle behind it, not taking into account the specific of ww2 planes and propeller and engine and such that complicate the thing to a point it's hard to grasp.

I'd like to point out though that if you factor propeller efficiency with engine power and other factor I dont even remotly know of, you get a measure of the thrust available at any point in time.

The biggest difference is that jet thrust is constant.  Thrust on propeller aircraft is dynamic, and only remains constant in level, unaccelerated flight.  And, I understood your generalization--the problem is that many people on this board do not and will either (a) not understand or (b) take the generalization and run with it as fact. 

I'm gonna start an Energy thread since this one got so goofy.  I'll start at the very beginning and work through most of this stuff, within the next day or so.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 04:06:46 PM
So why does a sailplane fly faster when it's heavier?   :D
My guess would be, given the same craft, wing area and such only heavier, to generate enough lift you'd have to either have a larger AOA or fly faster. Since an increase in AOA will slow you down, you obviously don't want that. That leave you with nosing slightly more down to fly faster. You would drop faster but at an increased ground speed, thus not affecting too much you glide ratio. Up to the point where you reach maximum airspeed for the particular airframe and have to increase AOA instead shortening your flight time noticably because of increased induced drag.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 04:11:10 PM
The biggest difference is that jet thrust is constant.  Thrust on propeller aircraft is dynamic, and only remains constant in level, unaccelerated flight.  And, I understood your generalization--the problem is that many people on this board do not and will either (a) not understand or (b) take the generalization and run with it as fact.  

I'm gonna start an Energy thread since this one got so goofy.  I'll start at the very beginning and work through most of this stuff, within the next day or so.

jet engine thrust is not constant, it burn air just like a piston engine.

The intent of my post was most certainly not to give specific advice regarding how to fly our plane but rather give an overview of the forces at play. People have to think for themselves. I and neither can you, do that for them. But I think I attained my goal of proving that a heavy plane most certainly do not gain anymore thrust from gravity than a lighter one. That assumption is false. That's the laws of physics at work.

I will leave it at that since I'm not willing to write a book on the subject. For those who are interested in expanding their knowledge, I'd refer you to your local library. They usually have a bunch of good physics book you can borrow for free.

 :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 08, 2011, 04:40:38 PM
Gravity's acceleration is constant regardless of the mass of the object. On earth it's 9.2m/s. Up to terminal velocity which is affected by the drag imposed by the shape of the specific object. As planes have roughly the same shape, they accelerate at about the same rate at first until they reach a point where drag dictate the final velocity of the fall. If what you said were true, heavier object would fall faster on earth(which has already been proved wrong by experiment). Similarly shaped object will acheive a very close terminal velocity, determined solely by the amount of drag they generate. A steel ball does not fall faster than a wooden one of the same size, even with a big mass differential. Now planes are not inert object, and they usually fly powered so their straight down acceleration rate will be (9.2m/s(gravity constant) + whatever the engine add minus drag). That makes a big difference. And it comes down again to thrust/weight ratio. Why? To answer that, we have to define what is acceleration. Acceleration is a change of velocity along a vector. To change the velocity, you have to apply enough force to overcome inertia. To apply it to powered flight, acceleration is proportionnal to the ability of the engine to overcome the inertia of the mass of the plane(and drag, that's why the faster you go the slower you accelerate. think about the time between 0-100 vs 200-300). Now to understand how this act, we must go back to the basic 4 forces that act on a plane : gravity, lift, thrust, and drag. When flying level, gravity is balanced by lift. When in a climb, some of the engine power is used to fight gravity and the extra lift is used to climb. Now if a plane point straight up, gravity sole opposite force is thrust as the lift vector now point parallel to the horizon. Deceleration rate is a function of (gravity constant - engine thrust - drag). A higher thrust/weight ratio will let you acheive a higher altitude. When thrust/weight ratio exceed 1:1, we have a craft that will accelerate pointing straight up, like a rocket on the launch pad or the space shuttle. Weight is not an advantage nor is it a disadvantage as long as you got a big enough engine to get you moving. A lot of factor come into play but it boils down to the aformentionned 4 forces. 3 of them are dynamic, 1 is not. You cannot change the laws of physics.

Now the question about how this is all modeled in the game is a completely different beast. But with what i've already seen iof the game, I'm sure HTC are already aware of all this.

Weight is a force, F=mg ie mass x gravity acceleration (expressed in simplest way)
When plane dives straight down (points to Earth's center) forces which are accelerating plane are weight and thrust. Opposing force is drag.

Now do the math.






Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: FLS on August 08, 2011, 05:15:14 PM
My guess would be, given the same craft, wing area and such only heavier, to generate enough lift you'd have to either have a larger AOA or fly faster. Since an increase in AOA will slow you down, you obviously don't want that. That leave you with nosing slightly more down to fly faster. You would drop faster but at an increased ground speed, thus not affecting too much you glide ratio. Up to the point where you reach maximum airspeed for the particular airframe and have to increase AOA instead shortening your flight time noticably because of increased induced drag.

You're saying the heavier aircraft would go faster for a given glide slope.  :D

Granted that might change in a zero lift dive and the weight effects are minimized by the engines but you seem to agree with me that increased mass increases the thrust from gravity so the aircraft goes faster over the same distance from the same height.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 05:40:10 PM
You're saying the heavier aircraft would go faster for a given glide slope.  :D

Granted that might change in a zero lift dive and the weight effects are minimized by the engines but you seem to agree with me that increased mass increases the thrust from gravity so the aircraft goes faster over the same distance from the same height.


It need to. the heavier you are the shorter your run get. For a light glider the effect is not large. The heavier you get, the faster you need to be to maintain an optimal AOA. In a glider, the only energy available is alt. You will not end up in the exact same spot.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 06:03:50 PM
Weight is a force, F=mg ie mass x gravity acceleration (expressed in simplest way)
When plane dives straight down (points to Earth's center) forces which are accelerating plane are weight and thrust. Opposing force is drag.

Now do the math.








Weight is relative to the acceleration of gravity. Mass is not. It's an absolute measure, function of an object density and volume. Weight and mass are not the same thing, though they are often confounded as such. For proof, take the weightlessness astronaut experience in orbit. They do not feel their weight. Their mass is not canceled. An object in free fall is weightless, not mass less.

When plane dives straight down (points to Earth's center) forces which are accelerating plane are gravity and thrust. Opposing force is drag and inertia(not really a force, rather a tendency to not change state IE : resisting acceleration/deceleration/change in direction). The acceleration granted by gravity is constant. If it's not true then Galileo, sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein (and might I add all physicist in between them and up to now) were wrong. I trust they were right. That's science. I know it's against common sense but it's true. Again, and I want it to be very clear, a given plane might dive better than another but it's not because gravity grants it more "thrust". Other factor are the cause. Airframe drag along with total thrust available at any given time determine how fast the plane accelerate through the dive. Gravity is a constant factor regardless of the mass of the plane.

Also I'd like you to define what make a good diver. A nimble zeke which control locks up at 400mph is not regarded as a great diver. A corsair which you can control at past 550 is a good diver. Even then both could accelerate quite well in a dive, one could maintain it longer before it begin shedding parts. I bet the zeke could even get faster. That is once it lost it's wings on the way down. Much less drag without those.

Take 2 good diver. Corsair and P-47. Who wins the race is dependent on how fast their engine can tow them through the dive and the drag generated by their airframe. Gravity is not a factor here because it grants them the exact same bonus to acceleration regardless of their mass. And regardless of the steepness of the dive. The effect on an incline is also the same. Regardless of mass. This one was proved 4 centuries ago by Galileo.

 :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: JUGgler on August 08, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
   :huh   I thought this was a game?


  To recover E do this---> "Go diving down" ! 


There's a thread somewhere  :old:



JUGgler
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: 2bighorn on August 08, 2011, 06:24:51 PM
Weight is relative to the acceleration of gravity. Mass is not. It's an absolute measure, function of an object density and volume. Weight and mass are not the same thing, though they are often confounded as such. For proof, take the weightlessness astronaut experience in orbit. They do not feel their weight. Their mass is not canceled.

When plane dives straight down (points to Earth's center) forces which are accelerating plane are gravity and thrust. Opposing force is drag and inertia(not really a force, rather a tendency to not change state IE : resisting acceleration/deceleration/change in direction). The acceleration granted by gravity is constant. If it's not true then sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein (and might I add all physicist in between them and up to now) were wrong. I trust they were right. That's science. I know it's against common sense but it's true. Again, and I want it to be very clear, a given plane might dive better than another but it's not because gravity grants it more "thrust". Other factor are the cause. Airframe drag along with total thrust available at any given time determine how fast the plane accelerate through the dive. Gravity is a constant factor regardless of the mass of the plane.

Also I'd like you to define what make a good diver. A nimble zeke which control locks up at 400mph is not regarded as a great diver. A corsair which you can control at past 550 is a good diver. Even then both could accelerate quit well in a dive, one could maintain it longer before it begin shedding parts. I bet the zeke could even get faster. That is once it lost it's wings on the way down. Much less drag without those.

 :salute

Ah for Christ's sake. Forget the powered planes.

Take two (in shape and size) identical balls. One is made out of styrofoam and other out of depleted uranium. Drop them from 50,000 ft. Which one will arrive to Earth's surface sooner?

And to make it easier, lets say air density is the same at 50k as it is at seal level.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 06:28:41 PM
post removed.

I'll leave it at that

have a nice day sir  :salute
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: PuppetZ on August 08, 2011, 06:30:07 PM
post removed
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: Edgar on August 08, 2011, 10:06:57 PM
I think to get back to the OP's question, how do you regain "E", their is only one answer:

Use your airplanes engine to climb to a higher altitude or use your engine to increase your aircraft's level speed (without losing altitude).

Anything else is trading potential energy for kinetic energy (minus parasitic factors) such as diving, or trading kinetic energy for potential energy (minus parasitic factors) such as a zoom climb. Without atmospheric conditions (such as updraft, etc that are not (often) used in the game), the engine is the only way to bank "E".

<S>
Edgar
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: FLS on August 09, 2011, 10:58:12 AM
It need to. the heavier you are the shorter your run get. For a light glider the effect is not large. The heavier you get, the faster you need to be to maintain an optimal AOA. In a glider, the only energy available is alt. You will not end up in the exact same spot.

Since the thrust increase in this case is proportional to the mass increase you should end up in the same spot excepting a minor difference in induced drag.
Title: Re: How to regain lost E? (F4U)
Post by: bozon on August 10, 2011, 03:15:53 AM
Since the thrust increase in this case is proportional to the mass increase you should end up in the same spot excepting a minor difference in induced drag.
True, as long as the AOA one needs to maintain does not change the "efficiency" (i.e. lift/drag ratio) by much, you will end up in the same place, only faster.

The physics of gliders is quite interesting, especially from the energetic point of view. Consider this: if you hover in one spot, you potential energy is constant and your kinetic is constant (0) - there should be no energy input required in order to hover... The requirement for an energy source is introduced in the fine details of the force balance. In order to resist gravity, one has to "push", or in the glider case more like "lean" against something - air. This requires one to move air about which immediately introduce viscosity and turbulence into the picture - an energy that the plane will deposit into the air and never get it back.

Without thermal winds, the glider has no energy source. It can only cash its banked potential energy into kinetic energy (from the gilder's point of view, making the air move so it can lean against it). And here is the interesting part - the gilder does not spend energy in order to stay up, it spends the energy in order not to slow down. Sounds the same but it is conceptually different: the energy that is required in order to keep a craft hovering using a rocket or Harrier style jets is HUGE compared with the energy required to keep a plane flying level by moving the air over the wings and paying for the drag. The wonderful "magic" of aerodynamics versus brute kinematics. This is why I say that gliders and planes "lean" against the air rather than "push" it.

The description of the ability to lean on the air versus the price tag of the drag is folded into the lift to drag ratio (L/D) which is the aerodynamic efficiency. Without going into details, this is nearly constant for much of the range of AoA and velocity (increase of lift increases drag nearly proportionally) and this is what controls the glide angle. The mass does not appear there explicitly. It has an implicit effect of requiring larger and larger AoA and higher velocities that eventually moves the plane out of its optimal L/D and the angle steepens. Fighters can glide at a surprisingly shallow angle, but they do it at very high speed which leads to rapid loss of altitude simply due to the speed, not because they truly fall like a brick.