Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: lyric1 on August 06, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
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I stumbled across a photo of a Japanese Mitsubishi KI-67 Hiryu/Peggy on the links below. I was struck by the unusual squadron markings as well as what appears to be nose art?
The photo is very slightly touched up to remove scratches & blemishes from it I was to find out later.
That is all that was done though what you see is what is there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/3212894933/
I contacted the fellow who posted it he then posted a second picture of the same aircraft.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/6011583321/in/photostream/
His father was in Japan & he believes his dad took the photos at Tachikawa Air Base.
Now I sent these links off to a researcher who has a lot of good contacts with Japanese artists & historians & they came up with this profile.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/zero22_2912239325.jpg)
I have contacted one individual who has helped me & the belief is that this aircraft was attached to one of the very first units to use the KI-67's. At this point in time the unit is unknown.
The grey colour interestingly enough is correct :O I guess the early ones were painted in this manner?
The nose art is interesting too because I believe it is Chinese & not Japanese.
至誠 English word is.... (zhicheng). Translation I think is (If there is a will there is a way.)
Not sure if I have all my facts right as I can't speak Japanese & the contacts are not that strong on English either.
On line translating gives me about three different answers depending on what one you use so I hope I am in the ball park on this.
I just got some Japanese magazines today that I am about to look through on KI-67's so maybe there is more to be found there.
Any help on this would be great Thanks.
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Very nice find. I don't have any info to help with, but I hope you can get enough for it to be skinned, maybe even as default when it is remodeled. The Ki-67 is one of my favorite bombers in AH and there is a lack of variation in the paint schemes it carried.
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Very nice find. I don't have any info to help with, but I hope you can get enough for it to be skinned, maybe even as default when it is remodeled. The Ki-67 is one of my favorite bombers in AH and there is a lack of variation in the paint schemes it carried.
I am looking at these two books as I am typing found some photos that match profiles that I would have questioned. Will post them eventually.
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Try to get a-hold of busa? He could very well help you on this as well.
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至誠 is shisei in Japanese and means devotion. The confusion may be that Japanese kanji can be read different ways: Onyomi (Chinese reading) or Kunyomi (Japanese reading).
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至誠 is shisei in Japanese and means devotion. The confusion may be that Japanese kanji can be read different ways: Onyomi (Chinese reading) or Kunyomi (Japanese reading).
Thank you for that Rolex.
Some of the Japanese looking at this aircraft seem to think the tail is painted the same as Thailands national flag? The debate continues.
http://www.worldflags101.com/t/thailand-flag.aspx
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Flew it again tonight, first time in years. She's still the best "raider" bomber in the game, and perk builder. She still handled beautifully, I smoked a few fighters with it, and is still fast. Im not surprised Chinese writing is on the nose cause the initial design was meant for the war on the mainland. Im not sure when the first actual squadron use of the bomber occurred but I know that full production was delayed due to argueing over exactly what they wanted the bomber to be.
Great find. I'd love to see that skin. I love this bomber.
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ok, its a word used in Japanese too - the roots are chinese ofc.
至誠 (しせい） - means absolute devotion to ones faith (or core beliefs <誠実>) and is often used in conjunction with heaven so: 至誠天 - which is when the heavens answer/reward your devotion. Its a very strong word thats not used a lot in a largely agnostic Japan today but back when spirits where high these sorts of 'cool' (渋い) words were used a lot and. . . thats a very nice looking plane!! (can we get that?)
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Why do you think it was grey? No other 1944/1945 Japanese bomber was painted this color. You can't tell from the photos, as they look just the same as any other derelict IJA bombers/fighter at the field (B&W, after all).
Also, you would really have to lock it down in regards to when the markings were applied. If it was the earliest unit, and the photos only show it as a post-war relic sitting on a field, you cannot tell when any additional markings were put on it. There were some examples of GIs or other people painting up Japanese airframes on airfields to take pictures of the colorful art. Also there are other instances where outside nations began using the left-behind airframes. That lends credibility to the Taiwan flag colors theory.
I realize such subjects can be scarce, but I think you need to find earlier photos before it was an abandoned wreck on a field. I don't think you can use that as a reference to the unit's markings during actual combat. If it was the first Ki-67 unit it could have been later relegated to a training unit, reassigned to a research/testing unit (i.e. weapons and tactics testing/training but not combat), or any other number of things that maybe had a special unit stripe applied to set them apart.
EDIT: If it was a captured Taiwanese craft, it might explain a repaint to grey color, if they had their own color standards.
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Why do you think it was grey? No other 1944/1945 Japanese bomber was painted this color. You can't tell from the photos, as they look just the same as any other derelict IJA bombers/fighter at the field (B&W, after all).
Also, you would really have to lock it down in regards to when the markings were applied. If it was the earliest unit, and the photos only show it as a post-war relic sitting on a field, you cannot tell when any additional markings were put on it. There were some examples of GIs or other people painting up Japanese airframes on airfields to take pictures of the colorful art. Also there are other instances where outside nations began using the left-behind airframes. That lends credibility to the Taiwan flag colors theory.
I realize such subjects can be scarce, but I think you need to find earlier photos before it was an abandoned wreck on a field. I don't think you can use that as a reference to the unit's markings during actual combat. If it was the first Ki-67 unit it could have been later relegated to a training unit, reassigned to a research/testing unit (i.e. weapons and tactics testing/training but not combat), or any other number of things that maybe had a special unit stripe applied to set them apart.
EDIT: If it was a captured Taiwanese craft, it might explain a repaint to grey color, if they had their own color standards.
I think I did point out that this was still being figured out by Japanese researchers & is still early days.
Also the translation between us English speaking folks & Japanese is not that good.
Don't get to worried about this appearing as a skin any time soon.
The answer may not ever be found?
Tell me more about the Taiwanese & there involvement with the Japanese?
One of the Japanese speculated that this aircraft may have been a gift to Thailand?
Map of Taiwan.
http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS434US435&q=map+of+taiwan&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x346ef3065c07572f:0xe711f004bf9c5469,Taiwan&gl=us&ei=A81BTt-SIoTj0QGv3OH6Dw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ8gEwAA
Map of Thailand.
http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS434US435&q=map+of+thailand&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x304d8df747424db1:0x9ed72c880757e802,Thailand&gl=us&ei=Q81BTv-oNaSo0AHHoajHCQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ8gEwAA
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Its so difficult researching Japanese systems and activities in WW2. The atrocities we know about mostly from survivors. But as far as paperwork and pictures go they tried to portray our B-29s as B2s with smart bombs aimed at any document pertaining to the war. :huh When MacArthur Landed they might as well have met him and said, "war? what war"?
Even most that have survived were either photos taken by individual soldiers or sailors or those taken by the Allies after capture.
Even the show trials for war crimes, held to protect Hirohito and his uncle who were both guilty as heck, were luckily mostly successfull cause the Allies grabbed many diaries of the Jap leadership and soldiers. They were all so afraid of their feudal system they kept diaries to cover their own backs.
Back to airplanes, ships and what not. Thereisn'tt isnt a huge trove of pictures to research with. Type KI-67 bomber pictures into a search engine and you get very few actual war time pictures back. Then type in any other nations airplanes and you get page after page back.
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This is the site that the profile was done on by Ta.gucci.
If Rauh or Rolex or any one else if you would not mind translate what is here so far.
http://www.plays.jp/bbs/zero22/index.html
http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/zerotagucci/
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No one at the sites knows the group or squadron of the plane in the photos. One person speculated that the nose art may have been a personal marking on the plane, something that would have been unusual.
(Something unusual may have been done at the end of the war, since the photo was taken later. Just a thought...)
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No one at the sites knows the group or squadron of the plane in the photos. One person speculated that the nose art may have been a personal marking on the plane, something that would have been unusual.
(Something unusual may have been done at the end of the war, since the photo was taken later. Just a thought...)
:aok Thank you & proving my point that some of those on line translations SUCK.
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Yes, Japanese - English - Japanese machine translation is a struggle. :D Grammar and sentence structures are so different. Human translators say that their jobs are secure forever, as no one will ever perfect machine translation. I struggle with both languages now, the penalty for having only a 35 IQ... ;)
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Well I tried exploring the Thailand connection & yes they did join up with the Japanese & were provided with Japanese aircraft.
No Ki-67's on the list & the markings for the most part don't match at all.
Interesting read no less.
http://thaimilitary.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/history-of-japanese-fighter-in-rtaf-and-rtn/
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jan_forsgren/j-aircraft_royal_thai.htm
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5th Hikoh-dan Flying group???
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5th Hikoh-dan Flying group???
:headscratch:? More details please?
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:headscratch:? More details please?
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26674
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http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26674
Thank you. :aok
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Identified.
飛行第7戦隊
Hikō dai 7 sentai
Flight seventh squadron
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/7th%20squadron_zpsk87hdsqg.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/7th%20squadron_zpsk87hdsqg.jpg.html)
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Found another photo of this plane.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_zpsdvmudxte.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_zpsdvmudxte.jpg.html)