Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKKuya on August 10, 2011, 04:26:15 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/chinas-first-aircraft-carrier-makes-maiden-sea-trial-000047792.html
Just saw that the maiden voyage is in progress. Sloped runway deck.
I'm guessing choppers and VTOL/STOL aircraft. Any guesses to which seabirds the Chinese will be taking?
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Since the Chinese are physically quite small on average, their CV is only 12 feet tall and will probably equip the latest in electric R/C 1/4 scale aircraft.
-Frank (just a guess)
-very evil grin-
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Since the Chinese are physically quite small on average, their CV is only 12 feet tall and will probably equip the latest in electric R/C 1/4 scale aircraft.
-Frank (just a guess)
-very evil grin-
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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That's the old "Varyag" once of the Soviet Navy. Very cool to see them actually get that thing out on the water (not in the international competition sense, just the pure love of all things Navy/Aviation).
I thought they were going to get some Su-33s to go with it, but I don't know if that ever happened. the Mig-29 Naval varient might be another alternative until the Chinese can get an indigenous design out there.
-Sik
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Looks like china is seeking the ability they lack.......deployment of force.
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More Chinese Junk? Pardon the pun.
I wonder if it is of the same quality as some of the Chinese
merchandise I have recently purchased.
:bhead
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China is ongoing fast, like US in past.
The power is shifting.
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I wouldn't call buying decades-old soviet-block-era mothballed junk and finally finishing retrofiting it to begin months and months of trials "ongoing fast". I do agree, they're begining to develop an offensive/deployable force, but I think they want CVs just to be used as an extention of their political and economic influence (think humanitarian efforts to an ally or neutral nation that they desperatley want to improve a relationship with - currently it's US, UN, NATO/EU or bust.)
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Call me paranoid but china beefing up their offensive capabilities makes me somewhat worried
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Any guesses to which seabirds the Chinese will be taking?
Looks like when all is said and done, here is your winner:
http://airforceworld.com/pla/J-15-naval-carrier-based-fighter-su-33-china.htm
Google translation of the first paragraph:
New carrier-based F-15 fighter
Su-33 Introduction | Detailed military Su-27
New carrier-based fighter suspected military, shaped like a Su-33, with canard. It is believed that the aircraft Central Air Industrial Manufacturing Company, Shenyang Aircraft design and manufacturing, the design from the F-11, with reference to the Ukrainian T-10K-3 demonstrator. 2011, appeared on the Internet, Gu Songfen chief engineer and others in T-10K-3 demonstrator before pictures.
July 2, 2010 5th edition reports: China's first fixed-wing carrier-based fighter aircraft F-15 aircraft in May this year entered the test phase. Allegedly, the aircraft will be deployed in China purchased from Ukraine, "Kuznetsov" aircraft carrier designed and Chinese built aircraft carrier. According to a message from the network, May 6, 2010 F -15 flying leaps for the first time slip, the same year, July 8, a second test. If true, then the proof of F -15 aircraft carriers will become the main carrier-based aircraft. Although there is now no doubt as -15 F, but still no official information as a basis. -15 F is still present in the test, another two-seat F -15, according to a message is also under development.
-Sik
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Call me paranoid but china beefing up their offensive capabilities makes me somewhat worried
Then you gotta remember its tag "Made in China" I'm not worried at all now :D
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Looks like when all is said and done, here is your winner:
http://airforceworld.com/pla/J-15-naval-carrier-based-fighter-su-33-china.htm
Google translation of the first paragraph:
-Sik
F22 Will wipe it off the face of the planet no doubt :rock
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I'm not personaly, at least for a while to come. Heck, maybe it'll even bring more support from our government to our own Navy to make sure we maintain our superiority, so in that light this could be one of the best things for our own navy in a long time.
China will have eventualy one refurbished soviet-era designed CV with two more cofirmed (and most likely) tweaked copies of that same decades-old design. Top it off that they haven't finished equiping them, have no trained or experienced carrier crews (although they're likely working on that as we speak), have no trained or experienced naval aviators, and don't even have a plane yet that can operate off them. I highly doubt it'll be a threat to our nation's current inventory of 11 CVs (not to mention the combined power of all our allies CVs), the brand spanking new ones currently being designed and developed to replace the older outdated designs, and our extremely experienced, tried and battle-hardened sailors and equipment.
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F22 Will wipe it off the face of the planet no doubt :rock
Waste of money and fuel. $10 says there's more than one US dolphin within snooping range of that ship and its maiden voyage currently under way at this moment, and probably twice as many within striking distance of it.
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F22 Will wipe it off the face of the planet no doubt :rock
Of much greater interest will be how it compares to:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/idf.htm?P_AVPASS=PHDGBITAVPASSP
-Sik
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Jeez, one aging, small, Russian carrier refitted and people think its a threat we need to be worried about? Have you looked at our Navy lately?
FYI, India has been operating one of them for a bit now as well.
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:aok :cheers:
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United States has 10+ carriers, I think the country that has second most has only 3 at best. We're safe.
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AGM-84... Scratch one Flat top!
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United States has 10+ carriers, I think the country that has second most has only 3 at best. We're safe.
I had to comment on this as I was being facetious in my comment.
If it ever comes to a shooting war between the Chinese and the US and it's Allies... Their Aircraft carrier will be the last thing we worry about.
I doubt a war against the Chinese would remain conventional.
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Just saw that the maiden voyage is in progress. Sloped runway deck.
I'm guessing choppers and VTOL/STOL aircraft. Any guesses to which seabirds the Chinese will be taking?
AWWW!! that little carrier's a cute little guy!! lol
As ive said before im no expert but... im thinkin 2 Harpoon ASM's and that things singin with davy jones! as for their new "frontline interceptor" :rofl Have you SEEN our Airforce Lately!
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First post here! :banana:
Seriously though. I find it odd that only one of the news articles I've read about this carrier has actually reported the name she has been given by China.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/07/19/2011071900660.html (http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/07/19/2011071900660.html)
The name is given in a short paragraph under the photo of the ship. The "Shi Lang" The name says it all... :eek:
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Top it off that they haven't finished equiping them, have no trained or experienced carrier crews (although they're likely working on that as we speak), have no trained or experienced naval aviators, and don't even have a plane yet that can operate off them. I highly doubt it'll be a threat to our nation's current inventory of 11 CVs (not to mention the combined power of all our allies CVs), the brand spanking new ones currently being designed and developed to replace the older outdated designs, and our extremely experienced, tried and battle-hardened sailors and equipment.
What most fail to realize is the Chinese mentality vs Western mentality of doing things. The Chinese are a very patient people. This russian carrier and the two domestically built planned copies of it are not for combat operations or even patrolling...rather they are a training tool to get their pilots and engineers as well as admirals acquainted with carriers.
By 2050 you can easily expect China to be fielding at least 5 modern supercarriers and their support fleets.
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By 2050 you can easily expect China to be fielding at least 5 modern supercarriers and their support fleets.
Serious question... Will "we" make it to 2050?
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F22 Will wipe it off the face of the planet no doubt :rock
Not today...
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/08/entire-u-s-stealth-fighter-fleet-grounded/?hpt=hp_bn11
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Not today...
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/08/entire-u-s-stealth-fighter-fleet-grounded/?hpt=hp_bn11
:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry god darn it!
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What most fail to realize is the Chinese mentality vs Western mentality of doing things. The Chinese are a very patient people. This russian carrier and the two domestically built planned copies of it are not for combat operations or even patrolling...rather they are a training tool to get their pilots and engineers as well as admirals acquainted with carriers.
By 2050 you can easily expect China to be fielding at least 5 modern supercarriers and their support fleets.
China is going to have such massive demographic problems before 2050 that talking of them having five supercarrier groups is rather silly. The one child policy is going to bite them in the buttocks hard.
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China is:
A: Outstripping the USA Economically and Industrially
B: The US capability for military force and economic dominance on world markets is giving way to China at what is best described an Alarming Rate (USA falling while China is rising = high closure speed)
C: The Chinese build up is yet to come, as previously stated their military is simply going through preliminary stages similar to that which took place in the USA in the 1940's and 50's. give them 10 years or so and they will begin the new generation, and with all that research, manufacturing and money behind it.... thats a big build up.
and of course
D: If it does degrade to a simple war of Attrition, the Chinese will win CONVINCINGLY.
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F22 Will wipe it off the face of the planet no doubt :rock
F-22 is still grounded, been grounded since May. And it's a problem with a critical system so it will be tough to just "waive" the requirement to fix it, even if we need them in a hurry.
Good thing we are still making F-15s, even if they are for other countries. Maybe we should buy a few more for ourselves before the line shuts down for good.
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China is:
A: Outstripping the USA Economically and Industrially
B: The US capability for military force and economic dominance on world markets is giving way to China at what is best described an Alarming Rate (USA falling while China is rising = high closure speed)
C: The Chinese build up is yet to come, as previously stated their military is simply going through preliminary stages similar to that which took place in the USA in the 1940's and 50's. give them 10 years or so and they will begin the new generation, and with all that research, manufacturing and money behind it.... thats a big build up.
and of course
D: If it does degrade to a simple war of Attrition, the Chinese will win CONVINCINGLY.
E) any war is stupid, esp with China as it does not benefit either country. Chinese don't want land, they want money. World land domination is garbage from a bygone era. Economic domination doesnt require war and is much less risky.
The question is of course, as the people of China gets richer at what point will they turn on their government? its only a matter of time (unless their government has rapid democratization).... and it only takes one bad economic situation to ignite it.
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What I see in the near future is some stability in the South China Sea from a strong Chinese Naval force operating. All the modern pirate gangs will eventually be destroyed once the Chinese navy receives a few bullets aimed at them.
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E) any war is stupid, esp with China as it does not benefit either country. Chinese don't want land, they want money. World land domination is garbage from a bygone era. Economic domination doesnt require war and is much less risky.
The question is of course, as the people of China gets richer at what point will they turn on their government? its only a matter of time (unless their government has rapid democratization).... and it only takes one bad economic situation to ignite it.
The next global war will most likely be over resources & water not money...and you underestimate the control the Chinese govt have on their internal politics and populace.
Tronsky
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The next global war will most likely be over resources & water not money...and you underestimate the control the Chinese govt have on their internal politics and populace.
Tronsky
The next global war will be which country has the "Most Nation's Idols". Armies of teenage girls will riot in the streets when the idol they voted for didn't win.
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I heard on CBC yesterday, the admiral (?) or the captain (?) or someone was talking about it. He said
Its just kind of to say "Don't mess with me, or you're going to get hurt."
Is that really their only motivation?
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I think I saw pics of this on the pond in NY Central Park.
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:rofl
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"I heard on CBC yesterday, the admiral (?) or the captain (?) or someone ..said" (somethin about bein messed with and gettin hurt)
Begs the question about who is messing with China that could get hurt by them.
And 10 years from now . . or even 40 years from now
.. if China is gonna put CV fleets together they gonna have to burn long and hard to do it.
Think a bit on what the US Armed Forces were like 40 years ago ..compared to today.
China catchin up to what the US Armed Forces are like today with 40 years of hard work means they will still be 40 years behind the curve.
What they would need to do is a revolutionary design improvement on today's hardware ..not evolutionary.
Like ..ohh .. say Anti-Gravity .. or .. Teleporters .. or mebbe a Warp Drive or Photon Torpedo.
-Frank aka GE (just sayin ..and the US is already workin on revolutionary design improvements in far more than just one area)
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What most fail to realize is the Chinese mentality vs Western mentality of doing things. The Chinese are a very patient people. This russian carrier and the two domestically built planned copies of it are not for combat operations or even patrolling...rather they are a training tool to get their pilots and engineers as well as admirals acquainted with carriers.
By 2050 you can easily expect China to be fielding at least 5 modern supercarriers and their support fleets.
thats how I read it - this carrier and its sister craft are just cheap testbeds. smart move.
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I wonder if the Chinese military will have females serving on the carrier?
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-Frank aka GE (just sayin ..and the US is already workin on revolutionary design improvements in far more than just one area)
I've heard rumors of the US working on VISUAL cloaking...?
Just what I've heard.
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USA has a stealth carrier program last I heard. Any word on its development?
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Don't forget the US Navy's Mothball fleet. That alone - cobwebs, rusty hulks and all - has the potential to sink every other nation's navy twice over the last I looked at its inventory. Yeah, they're not ready to sail tomorrow, but could be in a matter of weeks or months if we _needed_ to.
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AGM-84... Scratch one Flat top!
Waste of money, Mk-48 all the way! :rock
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Mk_48_torpedo_maintenance_1982.JPEG)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Mark_48_Torpedo_testing.jpg)
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Waste of money, Mk-48 all the way! :rock
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mk_48_torpedo_maintenance_1982.JPEG)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Mark_48_Torpedo_testing.jpg)
Tube 1... FIRE! :rock
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China catchin up to what the US Armed Forces are like today with 40 years of hard work means they will still be 40 years behind the curve.
Not really. Russia just handed them a working blueprint of a carrier. You can bet they are also giving them personnel to instruct them in carrier ops.
Take for example how the Chinese have caught up with the west in fighter aircraft. The latest Chinese designed and built fighter stands between the F22 and F16 generations. For them to do that in just 10 years is not something to be shy of.
I think China will use the Russian carrier for 5 years then build their first copy+improved carrier and operate it for 5 years then build their 2nd carrier being mostly self-designed but based on the russian model and use that one for 5 years. After that they will design their own from scratch using all the tech they've acquired from the west up to then (legally or otherwise) in it, build it and use it for 5 years to work out the bugs and once that is done they will have a working carrier class design they can begin to produce in numbers. [/quote]
-Frank aka GE (just sayin ..and the US is already workin on revolutionary design improvements in far more than just one area)
True. The addition of railguns and plasma based weaponry to replace cannon/bullets in the fleet is a big step. Carrier wise though I think the best and biggest step the US can do is to start deploying Drone carriers.
Should it come to trading blows, a Drone carrier would negate China's natural advantages: manpower and manufacturing. If they use manned fighter jets while the US uses remote controlled or AI controlled drones then the US would remain in an advantageous position. A drone is much cheaper to build than a fighter jet and no american pilots would be lost vs. the loss of many chinese pilots...not to mention every US drone pilot would become steadily better while the chinese would become steadily worse.
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Tac .. I am sure you know the Russian CV was a jump-jet design that could also operate helicopters.
They never got anywhere near operating a CAG with US capabilities.
For them to hand the Chinese some paper with what they think a modern CV should be ..well.
The nickname for the Chinese IDF fighter was 'I Don't Fly' .. by the Chinese themselves.
I am sure they probably have some that match or exceed the F-15 in stats.
Stat for stat comparison's are futile exercises ..command and control, pilot capabilities, tactics and stragety
.. it all comes home when the shootin starts.
I do not know if the Chinese are determined enough to field Armed services capable of dominating the World.
I do know economically they seem to be bent on doing the best they can do.
They may become a world dominating economic power .. they might not.
I'd have to wonder how stable their government actually is if it's based on one man's lifespan.
That trick never works because sooner or later the man in charge goes right off the deep end.
-Frank aka GE (just sayin)
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Greyeagle, you must be thinking of the Moskva class helicopter carrier. The Kuznetsov class is a fixed-wing capable "heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser" with 12 Shipwreck long-range anti-ship missiles and typically 33 fixed-wing aircraft and 12 helicopters. It was designed to carry a mix of Su-33, MiG-29K and Su-25UTG, though the MiG was cancelled. The Su-33 and 25 are operational.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=203xKIYfsnk&feature=related
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The Shipwreck missile is also more of a 7-ton mach 2.5 kamikaze-drone than a typical anti-ship missile. It's the only cruise missile I know of that use group and swarm tactics forming a data-network between missiles with one missile popping up in intervals to act as an "AWACS" and prioritize targets for the other missiles, which fly NOE.
(http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/398/PfCtt.jpg)
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Don't forget the US Navy's Mothball fleet. That alone - cobwebs, rusty hulks and all - has the potential to sink every other nation's navy twice over the last I looked at its inventory. Yeah, they're not ready to sail tomorrow, but could be in a matter of weeks or months if we _needed_ to.
Best thing to use those old hulks after making them seaworthy again is to fill them up with lots of high explosives, install remote control systems and turn them into massive kamikaze ships against the adversarial ship fleets.
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The nickname for the Chinese IDF fighter was 'I Don't Fly' .. by the Chinese themselves.
I am sure they probably have some that match or exceed the F-15 in stats.
Did you not see APDrones post further up? http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/08/entire-u-s-stealth-fighter-fleet-grounded/?hpt=hp_bn11
- just saying :)
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Did you not see APDrones post further up? http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/08/entire-u-s-stealth-fighter-fleet-grounded/?hpt=hp_bn11
- just saying :)
:cry I'm going to actually cry
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What about this one....Taiwan has a new ship killer missile out there now.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awx/2011/08/11/awx_08_11_2011_p0-357893.xml&headline=Taiwan%20Points%20to%20Own%20Carrier-Killer%20Missile
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True. The addition of railguns and plasma based weaponry to replace cannon/bullets in the fleet is a big step. Carrier wise though I think the best and biggest step the US can do is to start deploying Drone carriers.
Should it come to trading blows, a Drone carrier would negate China's natural advantages: manpower and manufacturing. If they use manned fighter jets while the US uses remote controlled or AI controlled drones then the US would remain in an advantageous position. A drone is much cheaper to build than a fighter jet and no american pilots would be lost vs. the loss of many chinese pilots...not to mention every US drone pilot would become steadily better while the chinese would become steadily worse.
Can you imagine even 1/10th of the Ah community controlling mach 3 drones while sitting at home defending there nation? weee. :rock :pray :salute
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The Shipwreck missile is also more of a 7-ton mach 2.5 kamikaze-drone than a typical anti-ship missile. It's the only cruise missile I know of that use group and swarm tactics forming a data-network between missiles with one missile popping up in intervals to act as an "AWACS" and prioritize targets for the other missiles, which fly NOE.
(http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/398/PfCtt.jpg)
I dont believe the SS-N-19s came with the ship. I imagine the tubes were pulle, but obviously don't know for a fact.
-Sik
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Nazi Germany thought it had the best armed forces in the world. The first nuke will be by the USA when it starts loosing.
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"Iraq went from the fourth-largest army in the world
to the second-largest army in Iraq in 100 hours"
-Lieutenant General Tom Kelly
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China is:
A: Outstripping the USA Economically and Industrially
B: The US capability for military force and economic dominance on world markets is giving way to China at what is best described an Alarming Rate (USA falling while China is rising = high closure speed)
C: The Chinese build up is yet to come, as previously stated their military is simply going through preliminary stages similar to that which took place in the USA in the 1940's and 50's. give them 10 years or so and they will begin the new generation, and with all that research, manufacturing and money behind it.... thats a big build up.
and of course
D: If it does degrade to a simple war of Attrition, the Chinese will win CONVINCINGLY.
Pacman, breath.
A) China's impressive GDP growth rate is a percentage of a low base number. It also has to be spread across five times as many people as the US.
B) There has been chatter of US decline for decades. These things go in cycles.
C) Scale any build up to the size of China. Using the US as a yardstick, the Chinese should have 50 carriers. Again, the rate of growth is high because the starting point is so far behind.
D) "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
I have been to mainland China six times. While I won't be giving up my citizenship any time soon, I love China. They are currently playing catch up after many decades of economic and political stress. China historically has been a leading nation in the world. There is nothing to fear with them assuming their natural position on the world stage.
Breath.
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http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/ffg.htm
Nice little site I found comparing the USN to the PLAN.
What would be giving me sleepless nights if I was a USN planner is the 100+ semi stealthy TYPE 022 (Houbei) catamaran's with the capability of very high speed and EIGHT very capable surface to surface missiles. Getting swarmed by even 30 of these little buggers would not be an easy exercise to defeat....240 high mach number cruise missiles...yikes.
I agree with the above poster 100% as well.
The Chinese have a long way to go to match our western tech, but they are most certainly on a road to try and accomplish exactly that, and with their numbers....
I believe that it's KillnU that is in the USN aboard 688 class Submarines. I'd LOVE to hear him sound off as much as he's able to about the Chinese SSN/SSK capability with their newer designs.
http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2011/08/full-1817-16500-naval_update_07_27_11_800.jpg
This also puts into perspective what having TEN Carriers actually means. Only two of them are deployed, and maybe a few more would be available in a Crisis after who know how many days to get them spun up and battle ready. About half of them are always in a constant state of upgrading/fitting out etc by the looks of things to me. Of course, one US Navy CVN can take on all the other CV's in the world combined I've heard told, but still, it would sure be nice to have double the number, and have some of the NATO allies actually pitch in and start building these critically important ships. There is NO reason that Britain and France shouldn't have several carriers and countries like mine (Canada) and other "staunch" Nato supporters like Norway should have at least one IMO.
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also, due to their population control policy plus their cultural preference for boys... they have nearly 50 million young men now who literally have no women to hook up with.
Quite a pool of 'expendable' troops if you look at it with a cold blooded perspective.
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also, due to their population control policy plus their cultural preference for boys... they have nearly 50 million young men now who literally have no women to hook up with.
Quite a pool of 'expendable' troops if you look at it with a cold blooded perspective.
Not only that but a whole lot of frustration as well. Imagine not being able to go out and get your wild side done with before you do anything or stepping up to the state run hoochie hut right as the end man in a long line of your fellow soldiers for the 100 or so "clean" comfort women.
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also, due to their population control policy plus their cultural preference for boys... they have nearly 50 million young men now who literally have no women to hook up with.
Quite a pool of 'expendable' troops if you look at it with a cold blooded perspective.
That population plane only works for a short time. All men no women....... few replacements.
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also, due to their population control policy plus their cultural preference for boys... they have nearly 50 million young men now who literally have no women to hook up with.
Quite a pool of 'expendable' troops if you look at it with a cold blooded perspective.
That population plan only works for a short time. All men no women....... few replacements.
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Building carriers is probably not going to be cost effective for China... Why? Unmanned submersibles... This technology is still black, but believe me that it is a worst nightmare scenario for a fledgling navy.
Two next generation Mk48 ADCAPs, and a sub-surface launched new generation ship killer missile on a small, fast, super quiet, long endurance, expendable platform that can dive very deep. It will be able to loiter for weeks... It can function autonomously with programming, and/or receive ultra-low frequency data bursts. It'll be 30 years before these things are in service in serious numbers, but they will pose an enormous threat to both surface ships and submarines.
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Plus it's only one CV, and a flipped one at that.
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Chinese would be better off on taking an old carrier and converting into a floating casino and hotel offshore from Hong Kong. Same thing for our carriers offshore from our big coastal cities.
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Interesting that the photo shows a ramped forward deck for fixed wing operations.
Wish them luck with that -evil grin-
Just sayin .. all the time I was in the USAF all we ever heard was how good the other side was .. until the shooting started.
I have no idea how the Russian dinner party circles were like after the Bekaa Valley Air War .. among others.
I did hear there was a lot of empty flight line in Syria the day after.
Cambodia also had one of the largest air forces in the world after Saigon fell.. lotta planes lined up at Pnomh-Penh airport.
They got used up a bit during the Mayaguez Incident .. 500lb Mk 82's are just plain mean to exposed aluminum an stuff.
Iraq .. according to all the 'commentators' ..was gonna be another Vietnam
..at least that's what they said before the shooting started for Desert Storm.
I mean .. the US *cancelled* the SR-71 even ..what *were* we thinkin?
As Schwarzkopf said .. we had a toolbox full of toys .. the SR-71 was just outclassed for battlefield intel by then.
I would hate to think China or any other Nation these days would want a go ..just not cost effective.
There are capabilities and toys that are just not talked about .. until the shootin starts.
-Frank aka GE (FEBA breifings were an education)