Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: hotard on August 22, 2011, 06:22:49 PM
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The percent based ENY as it is currently is a failure. When overall numbers are low, ENY is an overkill. A few player advantage, spread over the map is meaningless, however when the numbers are higher, ENY is under applied, allowing one side a 40-50 player advantage while having an ENY below 5, the point where the un-perked planes start becoming unavailable. Numbers like 95-95-135 result in an eny of ~4.5 for the big country. What kind of balance is that? Aside from the cost for perk rides, its a non factor. I'm not suggesting it level the playing field, but if you are going to have ENY, make it a factor already.
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Parabolic curve based on the total arena population. Problem solved :noid.
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I'll bet coding is an issue. Making it vaiable based on player numbers is probably not worth the effort in the long run. Is there anything "variable" in the game right now other than when the ENY kicks in (even then it is fixed based on %)?
The better thing to do, imo, is to make the list of aircraft more dynamic in ENY values. Namely, start at about ENY 2 (Me262, P51D, Spit16) and instead of having a jump of 5 ENY for most aircraft start to bring them into the steps of 2-3. Most of the aircraft currently 15 and less would slide on down to 12 and less. Once the level of ability of aircraft hits the current scale of 18-20, then start to spread it out more.
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I'll bet coding is an issue. Making it vaiable based on player numbers is probably not worth the effort in the long run. Is there anything "variable" in the game right now other than when the ENY kicks in (even then it is fixed based on %)?
The better thing to do, imo, is to make the list of aircraft more dynamic in ENY values. Namely, start at about ENY 2 (Me262, P51D, Spit16) and instead of having a jump of 5 ENY for most aircraft start to bring them into the steps of 2-3. Most of the aircraft currently 15 and less would slide on down to 12 and less. Once the level of ability of aircraft hits the current scale of 18-20, then start to spread it out more.
Wouldn't be too hard. Have it set so that the percentage used is based on total population. When Total population is low it takes a much greater percentage difference for ENY to be affected. When it's high the percentage gets smaller.
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ENY is a short term handicap based on country numbers. Since players have no short term control over ENY since the change times got pushed up to 12 hours, there is no reason to have ENY imo. It just pisses people off and they have no recourse anymore.
The saying used to be "Eny is the price of your loyalty". That does not apply any longer.
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ENY is a short term handicap based on country numbers. Since players have no short term control over ENY since the change times got pushed up to 12 hours, there is no reason to have ENY imo. It just pisses people off and they have no recourse anymore.
The saying used to be "Eny is the price of your loyalty". That does not apply any longer.
grizz there's only a few people who will switch sides to help the "low side", most of the people who switch will switch to horde with whoever side is hording at the time. and you want to give these people a 2 hour switch time? that's what happened last night when the knights won the war. a bunch of players switched to get the "free" perkies. and it happened the night before when the knights won the war. actually it happens almost every night, when people will switch to horde as usual.
if most people were to switch to lower eny countries as you sometimes imply, they would've never been eny on any country for more than a couple of minutes as players would realize this and switch.
semp
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if most people were to switch to lower eny countries as you sometimes imply, they would've never been eny on any country for more than a couple of minutes as players would realize this and switch.
semp
That's simply not true, because the numbers swing differently every day, from hour to hour.
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That's simply not true, because the numbers swing differently every day, from hour to hour.
of course they change, but not enough to have eny round the clock.
semp
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that's what happened last night when the knights won the war. a bunch of players switched to get the "free" perkies.
I'd love to see their faces when they see the war was won, but they were not awarded perk points (because they were not on the winning side long enough before the war was one) - and now they realize that they have to wait 12 hours to switch back. :rofl
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ENY is a short term handicap based on country numbers. Since players have no short term control over ENY since the change times got pushed up to 12 hours, there is no reason to have ENY imo. It just pisses people off and they have no recourse anymore.
The saying used to be "Eny is the price of your loyalty". That does not apply any longer.
How is it no longer aplicable? There are still short-term fluxuations in the numbers, as people change sides, and log on and off. If the numbers change in the short-term, then doesn't that mean a short-term handicap is still usefull?
Yesterday I saw eny climb from under 5 all the way upto 13 as bish logged off or changed sides. Limited in their options of dweeb-rides, both the rooks and knits started to ignore the bish because they couldn't fight spixteens with spixteens.
ENY can still be effective, it just needs to be modified so that it stays effective at both extreme low and high ends of the arena population, rather than being effective towards the middle only.
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How is it no longer aplicable? There are still short-term fluxuations in the numbers, as people change sides, and log on and off. If the numbers change in the short-term, then doesn't that mean a short-term handicap is still usefull?
Yesterday I saw eny climb from under 5 all the way upto 13 as bish logged off or changed sides. Limited in their options of dweeb-rides, both the rooks and knits started to ignore the bish because they couldn't fight spixteens with spixteens.
ENY can still be effective, it just needs to be modified so that it stays effective at both extreme low and high ends of the arena population, rather than being effective towards the middle only.
Because ENY was a way to provide incentive and/or penalty to the player base to even the numbers themselves. Now that there is a 12 hour side switching restriction in place, a lot of that free will has been removed.
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I'd love to see their faces when they see the war was won, but they were not awarded perk points (because they were not on the winning side long enough before the war was one) - and now they realize that they have to wait 12 hours to switch back. :rofl
I would actually like that little factoid to be added to the "did you know?" pop up the appears when the game is loading. :)
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Because ENY was a way to provide incentive and/or penalty to the player base to even the numbers themselves. Now that there is a 12 hour side switching restriction in place, a lot of that free will has been removed.
It was also (and still is) a way to give the low side an advantage in aircraft since they're at a disadvantage in numbers. ENY serves as a deterent for dweebs switching to horde if they would only stop to think, as well.
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It was also a way to give the low side an advantage in aircraft since they're at a disadvantage in numbers. And ENY also serves as a deterent for dweebs switching to horde if they would only stop to think.
Yeah you are correct, it is not totally without value anymore, but its value has been reduced since we have been handcuffed by the 12 hr. side balancing restriction.
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True, its usefullness, and infact its reason for existance, has been limited by the 12-hr rule. But what we're looking at is the difference between nothing and almost nothing. If we change ENY and make its purpose more in keeping balance in effective strength between the sides, then we change that to the difference between nothing and a little bit. So we really have 3 basic options:
1) do away with ENY
2) keep it as is
3) overhaul or replace the current system
What we're trying to figure out is if the work involved with fixing the ENY is worth the difference between the almost nothing and a little bit we would get with keeping ENY or fixing it.
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Yeah you are correct, it is not totally without value anymore, but its value has been reduced since we have been handcuffed by the 12 hr. side balancing restriction.
:cry :cry :cry :cry
semp
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:cry :cry :cry :cry
semp
Dumb response.
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I dont get whats broken - how is being outnumbered 10:5 better than 20:10? :headscratch:
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We're talking more about 10:7:7, which is better than 20:14:14. While the percentage one side has over the others may not increase, the total numbers advantage does. Where 10 players isn't a big advantage, 30 is, even if percentages remain the same.
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I dont get whats broken - how is being outnumbered 10:5 better than 20:10? :headscratch:
When the numbers are higher, there's more chance of a group being able to gang hard on one guy or a few guys. Take a 2v1 for example. The maximum number of people that can be attacking the outnumbered guy is 2. In a 4v2, if one guy ties up the second low side member, it's possible to have a 1v1 and a 3v1. As the numbers go up, the pool of available 'free' people to gang one guy goes up as well.
Not to say it's planned or it always happens that way, but the potential is there and it happens often enough. Look at the next furball you go into. Somewhere in it there will probably be 3 or 4 guys on 1 enemy. If your side has the numbers, it leaves more people potentially 'free' to mob one or two guys, then move onto the next unfortunate guy who's slow enough to get caught by them.
Wiley.
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in your 4v2 example, going 2v1 and 2v1 will give a better outcome than 1v1 and 3v1, so overall the odds are the same if the 4 do the smart thing.
still not convinced.
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in your 4v2 example, going 2v1 and 2v1 will give a better outcome than 1v1 and 3v1, so overall the odds are the same if the 4 do the smart thing.
still not convinced.
I disagree. If the 1 on the high side is competent enough to tie up the other guy in the 1v1 long enough for the 3 to kill the other guy, now the outnumbered guy is looking down the wrong end of a 4v1. How is that not an easier situation for the high number side?
Wiley.
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I already told you: As total numbers increase, the same sized advantage in numbers represents a smaller and smaller advantage percentage wise, which is what ENY goes off of.
with 150 people in an arena, numbers being 56, 44, and 50 (a relativly small advantage), ENY is fine (just assume it is).
But it won't be enough when you double the numbers, because 112, 88, and 100 gives the same percentages as 56, 44, and 50, even though the numbers advantage has increased from 12 to 24. With twice the numbers advantage, ENY remains the same.
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I disagree. If the 1 on the high side is competent enough to tie up the other guy in the 1v1 long enough for the 3 to kill the other guy, now the outnumbered guy is looking down the wrong end of a 4v1. How is that not an easier situation for the high number side?
assuming that the 2 fights are close enough that the 3 can kill the 1, and get over to the 1v1 before its over ... I'm not sure. :headscratch: my gut tells me that overall the law of diminishing returns still applies, which means spreading out the advantage is the best tactic.
on the scale of the MA where fights/bases have decent separation, and there are unlimited lives it certainly does apply. eg. sending 60 guys to take bases one at a time certainly works, but sending 30 each to 2 bases will take bases quicker. the implication of this distribution of advantage is that the relative numbers are still the important thing, which is what ENY is based on...
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assuming that the 2 fights are close enough that the 3 can kill the 1, and get over to the 1v1 before its over ... I'm not sure. :headscratch: my gut tells me that overall the law of diminishing returns still applies, which means spreading out the advantage is the best tactic.
on the scale of the MA where fights/bases have decent separation, and there are unlimited lives it certainly does apply. eg. sending 60 guys to take bases one at a time certainly works, but sending 30 each to 2 bases will take bases quicker. the implication of this distribution of advantage is that the relative numbers are still the important thing, which is what ENY is based on...
Assuming an overall plan, I agree, spreading the advantage is the best tactic. However, that's not what we're dealing with in the 'wild' of an arena like the LWMA.
In the MA, you've got a bunch of people, all with wildly varying skill levels and goals. Very few of them are capable of working in concert on a large scale beyond all showing up in the same place.
While sending 30 into two bases will take them quicker assuming the goal of all 60 people is to take bases, you're correct. However, what we wind up with in the MA is basically a hodgepodge of people doing different things.
I just think having a larger pool of people who outnumber the other side means a bigger advantage than the same percentage of advantage with fewer numbers.
If you've got a relatively balanced 10v10 in an area, and 5 more guys come in on one side, it's unbalanced. If you've got a relatively balanced 10v10 in an area and 10 or 20 more guys come in on one side, it's pretty much instant slaughter.
To me that's the reason why the absolute number has more of an effect.
Wiley.
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If you've got a relatively balanced 10v10 in an area, and 5 more guys come in on one side, it's unbalanced. If you've got a relatively balanced 10v10 in an area and 10 or 20 more guys come in on one side, it's pretty much instant slaughter.
To me that's the reason why the absolute number has more of an effect.
that example is also a higher relative advantage, and would therefore attract higher ENY.
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Holmes, read my posts, they explain why ENY needs fixing.
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grizz there's only a few people who will switch sides to help the "low side", most of the people who switch will switch to horde with whoever side is hording at the time. and you want to give these people a 2 hour switch time? that's what happened last night when the knights won the war. a bunch of players switched to get the "free" perkies. and it happened the night before when the knights won the war. actually it happens almost every night, when people will switch to horde as usual.
if most people were to switch to lower eny countries as you sometimes imply, they would've never been eny on any country for more than a couple of minutes as players would realize this and switch.
semp
12 hour on a side to get perks...... :rofl
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Holmes, read my posts, they explain why ENY needs fixing.
I have and I'm still not sure what you're getting at. can you explain how higher numbers increase the advantage even more than just the relative advantage?
eg. how is 240:200 easier than 120:100? same relative advantage, same ENY, larger absolute advantage.
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that example is also a higher relative advantage, and would therefore attract higher ENY.
But that is looking at just one area of the arena. Having 20 guys available to start running around is going to be easier to find with a higher total number in the arena than with a relatively low total population.
Wiley.
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its not any greater relative advantage. They still have 20% more players over the side you're comparing so it gets the same ENY as 120:100. But they still have 40 more players to put into the fight which is a big advanage.
So at very low numbers, ENY will be too harsh as a 30% advantage could only mean 5 more players. At very high numbers ENY can be too loose, as a 30% advantage could mean maybe 60 more players.
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ENY is a short term handicap based on country numbers. Since players have no short term control over ENY since the change times got pushed up to 12 hours, there is no reason to have ENY imo. It just pisses people off and they have no recourse anymore.
The saying used to be "Eny is the price of your loyalty". That does not apply any longer.
Grizz,
Doesn;t this assume its only purpose was to get you to switch? Since you can no longer switch, that purpose is now irrelevant. BUT since you can;t switch to correct the imbalance, the code dumbs down the planes set to create "effective balance" ilo numbers balance.
In that respect, isn't it still serving its purpose?
:salute
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its not any greater relative advantage. They still have 20% more players over the side you're comparing so it gets the same ENY as 120:100. But they still have 40 more players to put into the fight which is a big advanage.
you keep saying that, but you still havent explained why or how.
can you explain how higher numbers increase the advantage even more than just the relative advantage?
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ENY doesn't work; either the penalties are too low or if they effecting the player base, they can't switch back and forth to even up the different chess prices.
At this point, the only ENY that will work is zone ENY sinc the players still have the ability to go somewhere else on the map where less friendlies are flying. It is comical to see 10v1 in one sector and 4 sectors away it is a 1v10. Somehow I doubt it will ever appear in AH since it will all but shutdown the many of the horde base taking groups.
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Grizz,
Doesn;t this assume its only purpose was to get you to switch? Since you can no longer switch, that purpose is now irrelevant. BUT since you can;t switch to correct the imbalance, the code dumbs down the planes set to create "effective balance" ilo numbers balance.
In that respect, isn't it still serving its purpose?
:salute
It's serving its "purpose" in that respect yes, but since there are just as many high eny planes that cater to horders it really does nothing, for example, D9s and A8s. Heck even the Typhoon is Eny 10, which would really take a large imbalance to nerf.
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Zone ENY wouldn't be so bad.
After a 10 plane advantage, make the ENY climb 5 points for every additional plane.
If they want to horde, they'll have to fly farther and coordinate their attacks from multiple bases. At least it will give the defenders a better opportunity to mount a defense. Of course, the defenders will also be effected by the zone ENY as well.
edit: Like I said, it would never happen because the mega base taking squads would have a fit.
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ENY doesn't work; either the penalties are too low or if they effecting the player base, they can't switch back and forth to even up the different chess prices.
At this point, the only ENY that will work is zone ENY sinc the players still have the ability to go somewhere else on the map where less friendlies are flying. It is comical to see 10v1 in one sector and 4 sectors away it is a 1v10. Somehow I doubt it will ever appear in AH since it will all but shutdown the many of the horde base taking groups.
dont you think with zone eny you can just flight from outside the zone? and what would happened if 30 guys spawn at the same time in brand new 262's? wont eny affect only people spawning after? even with "zone" eny you will still have 20 or 30 guys attacking one base and 2 attacking another near base.
dont forget about the hq/city missions upping from way back in the rear. no enemy for several sectors and yet they still have eny.
so called "zone eny" is just as <start sarcasm font> effective <end sarcasm font> as country wide eny.
semp
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Zone ENY wouldn't be so bad.
After a 10 plane advantage, make the ENY climb 5 points for every additional plane.
If they want to horde, they'll have to fly farther and coordinate their attacks from multiple bases. At least it will give the defenders a better opportunity to mount a defense. Of course, the defenders will also be effected by the zone ENY as well.
edit: Like I said, it would never happen because the mega base taking squads would have a fit.
:huh So... assuming no enemy in the area, 10 planes can be in the area when you take off before ENY kicks in? The eleventh has 5 eny to deal with, the twelfth has 10 eny, and so on up to the cap of what, 20? How big is the area? A sector?
Wiley.
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Nuthing wrong with ENY....nits had 40 more players on....no ENY...whats wrong with that :rofl
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Like I said, a parabolic curve to when ENY kicks in will fix this :aok.
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Like I said, a parabolic curve to when ENY kicks in will fix this :aok.
you are using a big word and yet fail to explain how it is different than what we have now.
semp
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Right now ENY kicks in at a fixed rate based on percentages (as I understand it at least)
So for the purpose of explination lets say that ENY starts to kick in when you have a 7% numbers advantage over one of the other two sides. As it is, ENY kicks in at 7% regardless of the actual numbers that percentage is representing.
If the numbers are 10, 10, and 11, the side with 11 is already expierencing ENY dispite only having a one player advantage over each individual team, and having a 1.1-1 advantage over any one team. Divided across two fronts, they only have 1/2 a person more than either one team, but they are already limited by ENY.
So say we add a parabolic curve to the percentage advantage that must be present for ENY to kick in, based on total population. This would mean that ENY needs a higher percentage before it begins to take effect when the population numbers are low, and a lower percentage when the arena population is high, since the total numbers advantage that percentage represents changes based on total arena population.
See what I mean? If we change the percentage required for ENY to take effect, that percentage being determined by total numbers, ENY becomes more dynamic, and form fitting to the current situation rather than just a median of numbers.
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you are just throwing a bunch of big words but nothing else. explain down to numbers how this should work, because it looks like it's what we have now.
semp
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Is it OK if I use hypotheticals? Math has never been my strong-suit, and developing a mathematical formula that will change the ENY % according to the population is beyond me.
I might be able to come up with a basic one (not quite what we want, but closer) if I knew the current percentages ENY needs to kick in, and if the rate at which ENY increases is linear or parabolic itself.
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Is it OK if I use hypotheticals? Math has never been my strong-suit, and developing a mathematical formula that will change the ENY % according to the population is beyond me.
I might be able to come up with a basic one (not quite what we want, but closer) if I knew the current percentages ENY needs to kick in, and if the rate at which ENY increases is linear or parabolic itself.
ah ok, i see you are trolling.
semp
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no, I just don't have the math skills to develop a formula that will perfectly (or even closely) adjust ENY to arena numbers.
People talk about the coading all the time, yet most could not coad a slolid wall.
Again, can I use hypotheticals to represent my case? And I have no idea how exactly ENY is calculated aside from that its percentage based, so thats another hinderance to showing you how its different.
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so you dont know how a parabolic curve works but yet you offer it as a solution. so either you are trolling or you are being boneheaded. perhaps both.
semp
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ah ok, i see you are trolling.
semp
you are the one trolling.......just sayin :rolleyes:
and now I trolled you.....its a never ending circle :noid
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I'm not saying the formula would nessicarily be that of a parabola (or that I know how to make such a formula for ENY).
I'm just saying that if you take a parabola (half an upside down parabola, actually) and place it over top of a graph, x axis being arena population, y axis being percentage needed for ENY to take effect, you get a general picture of what I'm talking about (the higher the numbers, the smaller the percentage needed before ENY starts to limit planes, and the lower the numbers, the larger the percentage needed).
Still trying to work out an exact formula, but not having much luck
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you are the one trolling.......just sayin :rolleyes:
and now I trolled you.....its a never ending circle :noid
frustrating trying to explain to him that he's asking for something that is already in place.
semp
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How is ENY calculated then? Do you know or are you just going based on ingame observations? And if its in place, its clearly not effective at high numbers, and needs to be replaced.
Edit: so you're telling me this is roughly what the curve of when ENY kicks in looks like?
(http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z375/DasHetzer/ENYchart.jpg)
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frustrating trying to explain to him that he's asking for something that is already in place.
semp
you mean this
:bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
I know what you are talking about :bhead
:rofl
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Yesterday knits had 153 players to Rook 137 to Bish 105. ENY for Knits was 3.3.
I believe Irish One was asking if that made any sense. It seems based on those umbers that Rook and Knits would have larger ENY cut offs. Then I looked at the map status and Bish had 32 Bases, Knits had 20, Rooks had 25.
So does the map status (number of Bases held by each country) factor in?
:salute