Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SPKmes on August 23, 2011, 04:19:38 PM
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Not sure if this is the place....I am wondering about the 50 cals potency....case in point straffing GV's....now I can make multiple passes on an M3..let's take this for example with the Ki61...20mm's blazing and if I'm lucky i will kill it on the second or third pass....during these passes I can't even seem to take out the pintle gun...but with a P40 I can one pass kill it out right....Now I know that the rate of fire and all that sort of thing needs to be taken into account but does this sound right?...I have gone over it and said nothing for a while now...I did make a statement on 200 some time ago when I was shocked at killing an M3 with such ease 1 pass using the P40 but other than that I just put it down to ah well that's AH for you...but last night it cropped up again as I was running around in a SKdZ (whatever it is hahah) and a 51 comes down and kills me one pass...up another and same thing...do it again same thing...so I do it again..this time I don't die but I do lose both guns...and then the following passes kill me....
Hmmm after all that long winded crying...my question....do the 50 cals seem to pack more punch than they should...I don't really know...I do know however that there are plenty of people here who do have a good knowledge of ballistics and could properly explain to me the effectiveness of caliber vs rate of fire vs damage....
Cheers
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Just spitballing here, but is it possible that the API ammunition of a .50 cal might be more effective at penetrating
the rather thin armor plate of the halftrack than an exploding 20mm?
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Like Rino said a 50cal AP round will go through the armor and hit the fuel tank,engine or ammo while the 20mm explodes on contact.
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ahh ok ...makes sense.... cool ....
i spose the fact I was carrying 24 spare rockets wouldn't have helped things either...not that that is coaded but I could imagine a rather big explosion if you hit those too....hahaha
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No, 20mm has a pierce capability as well. The cannons will almost always be easier to kill GVs with if you hit.
Was it, by any chance... a specific M3 driver who has certain connection issues and is hard to kill?
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Like Rino said a 50cal AP round will go through the armor and hit the fuel tank,engine or ammo while the 20mm explodes on contact.
Most of a halftrack is just metal work, doesn't matter how much you chew it up if you don't hit anything important. And 20mm's are a mix of HE and AP rounds.
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No none in particular. Just any old m3 or the like( not jeeps though.. You just say boo to them and they die )lvt's is another. Maybe it is just the Japanese 20's.... Although I have in the past( recent) had trouble with the 110... Had one time an Osti that was tracked and smoking(engine out) made multiple passes 30 mm also and on about the sixth pass I came from the wrong side of the tracked Osti and he shot me.... I cried big that day hahaha
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osties are completly different from an M3. You're probably not going to kill him with anything less than an Hurricane IID.
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osties are completly different from an M3. You're probably not going to kill him with anything less than an Hurricane IID.
Totally understand that....and I know I don't have the uber aim but I would have thought that with over 200 rounds mix of 30's and 20's I could have atleast turreted him 50 cals do my turret no worries. This was just another example is all.... Not really trying to start anything
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No, 20mm has a pierce capability as well. The cannons will almost always be easier to kill GVs with if you hit.
Was it, by any chance... a specific M3 driver who has certain connection issues and is hard to kill?
In some cases that's true Krusty I don't fly JP planes so I don't know what there 20mm load out is, but if its all HE then you may not get the penetration and rounds on target is a big factor. :salute
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Most of a halftrack is just metal work, doesn't matter how much you chew it up if you don't hit anything important. And 20mm's are a mix of HE and AP rounds.
Tank-Ace most of a haltrack is not just metal work with the exception of the running boards and fenders its all the same armor.
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osties are completly different from an M3. You're probably not going to kill him with anything less than an Hurricane IID.
osties die from the p39's 37mm...
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I said probably. You have to hit it right to kill with a 39 or Yak-T, not to say it can't be done mind you, just that its more difficult and that theres a fair chance he'll kill you before you kill him.
And Tbolt, all I meant was that most of a half-track is just empty space protected by armor. Its not like its packed full of important easily damaged machinery.
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Hey its cool Tank-Ace.
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Rate of fire?
More bullets firing = potentially more hits = more probability of damage.
I think, like me, you're just a lousy shot. ;)
I bet you're missing with the 20mm's more than you think and getting more hits with the .50s because there is more lead flying.
Just a guess, from personal experience.
wrongway
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I suspect that all rounds in AH are "AP" they just have different penetration figures and only penetration counts to total damage if the surface it hits requires it. That means tanks and A/C armour plates. That also means that all rounds "flash" when they hit even if they are AP.
I recall that from penetration point of view .50 Cal has nearly the same penetration as a 20mm AP if you calculate projectile weight and velocity (E) and divide that with the area that impacts the surface. Of course that depends on which 20mm cannon figures you use for calculations.
-C+
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I suspect that all rounds in AH are "AP" they just have different penetration figures and only penetration counts to total damage if the surface it hits requires it. That means tanks and A/C armour plates. That also means that all rounds "flash" when they hit even if they are AP.
I recall that from penetration point of view .50 Cal has nearly the same penetration as a 20mm AP if you calculate projectile weight and velocity (E) and divide that with the area that impacts the surface. Of course that depends on which 20mm cannon figures you use for calculations.
-C+
All .30cal and .50 cal, and the 40mm from the Hurricane IID, and the 23mm/37mm from the IL-2 are AP (FMJ). All of the 20mm are HE, the single 30mm we have in AH is HE, the 37mm from the P39 and Yak are HE. There are 2 very different types of damages delivered. The AP will bust right though aircraft and unless there are massed hits in 1 area then the damage will not be as evident. A single 20mm HE can hit and cause major damage simply because the projectile will shred apart upon impact. Vs armored targets such as the top/rear of a tank, the .50cal may have an easier time busting though and damaging the engine or destroying the tank.
There are no 20mm AP in AH.
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...but with a P40 I can one pass kill it out right...
the P40 is an exceptionally stable gun platform, plus the .50s are like lasers. chances are you're just getting alot more of your .50 rounds on target.
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Should a c202 be able to track a tank?
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Should a c202 be able to track a tank?
easily. 2 .50 cals and 2 bb guns arent as bad as you think. you could probably turret a panzer if you hit the top of it.
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easily. 2 .50 cals and 2 bb guns arent as bad as you think. you could probably turret a panzer if you hit the top of it.
:rofl :lol only in ah...maybe. even with full steel jacketed ap the worst it should be able to do is damage the engine. maybe knock off some accessories, damage the hatch hinges, scratch the paint real good, make a lot of noise inside, but tracking and knocking out the turret? not
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easily. 2 .50 cals and 2 bb guns arent as bad as you think. you could probably turret a panzer if you hit the top of it.
I too.... :rofl
Double check the AP ability of German 8mm and 13mm MG's. :aok
Then grab a P47 w/ all eight .50 cal MG's and see if you can get it done. If anything can do it, a P47 can because it is using the best .50 cal MG in the game and it is using 8 of them at one time.
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:rofl :lol only in ah...maybe. even with full steel jacketed ap the worst it should be able to do is damage the engine. maybe knock off some accessories, damage the hatch hinges, scratch the paint real good, make a lot of noise inside, but tracking and knocking out the turret? not
only in AH will it do that...you obviously wouldnt know because you never have done it.
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Should a c202 be able to track a tank?
You'd have to be either insanely good or have god doing you a favor and delivering a not so small mirical.
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I said probably. You have to hit it right to kill with a 39 or Yak-T, not to say it can't be done mind you, just that its more difficult and that theres a fair chance he'll kill you before you kill him.
And Tbolt, all I meant was that most of a half-track is just empty space protected by armor. Its not like its packed full of important easily damaged machinery.
Weird..most combat laden White halftracks I have seen were packed full of troops or supplies/ammunition.
I imagine none of those would react well to 50 caliber :rolleyes:
(http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_m3_halftrack_ftknox_700.jpg)
(http://www.olive-drab.com/images/halftracks_seinecrossing_700.jpg)
(http://images5.fotki.com/v81/photos/1/133612/998381/m3_halftrack_007-vi.jpg)
Given the rubber track bands and soft cargo carried aft and the engine/crew in the front, odds seem
favorable for at least a mission kill.
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only in AH will it do that...you obviously wouldnt know because you never have done it.
and i suppose you have? i would love to hear all about your combat record some day, over a couple bottles of tequila. :rolleyes: when i get tired of smelling the b.s. i can puke on the floor and smell that instead.
i'm not dumb enough to be low and slow in a c202 wasting ammo on a tank, even in the ah world. jeep or half track maybe and only if there aren't any enemy planes around.
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and i suppose you have? i would love to hear all about your combat record some day, over a couple bottles of tequila. :rolleyes: when i get tired of smelling the b.s. i can puke on the floor and smell that instead.
i'm not dumb enough to be low and slow in a c202 wasting ammo on a tank, even in the ah world. jeep or half track maybe and only if there aren't any enemy planes around.
yes. i have tracked a tank in a c202 before. its called having fun, you should try it one time. im not sure about you, but i find it fun torturing the poor guy in the m4 by constantly shooting his treads and making him suffer with the "pingpingpingpingpingpingping" even after im 900 yds away.
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Weird..most combat laden White halftracks I have seen were packed full of troops or supplies/ammunition.
I imagine none of those would react well to 50 caliber :rolleyes:
Yeah, you'll kill troops. Yeah you'll shoot up the K-rations. Yeah you'll shoot up the cigaretts. But you won't stop the halftrack by doing that, which is what hes talking about.
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yes. i have tracked a tank in a c202 before. its called having fun, you should try it one time. im not sure about you, but i find it fun torturing the poor guy in the m4 by constantly shooting his treads and making him suffer with the "pingpingpingpingpingpingping" even after im 900 yds away.
Respectfully, I think you are full of do-do. Tracking a tank takes a lot of damage to a specific spot and the dual 13mm do not fire fast enough nor produce enough damage to do so.
At this point in time, I'll put money on the P47 w/ eight .50 cals being able to track a tank, but that is it. I'm sure someone has done it in a 6 gun aircraft, but I have not. I dont waste my ammo. With all that being said, I have no doubt that a C202 can do enough damage to a M8, M3, SdKfz 251, Wirby, or Osy to disable it in some manner. I know I've destroyed an M8 in a P40B before (quad .30 cals and dual .50's), I'm betting the .50 cals did most of the work.
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Respectfully, I think you are full of do-do. Tracking a tank takes a lot of damage to a specific spot and the dual 13mm do not fire fast enough nor produce enough damage to do so.
At this point in time, I'll put money on the P47 w/ eight .50 cals being able to track a tank, but that is it. I'm sure someone has done it in a 6 gun aircraft, but I have not. I dont waste my ammo. With all that being said, I have no doubt that a C202 can do enough damage to a M8, M3, SdKfz 251, Wirby, or Osy to disable it in some manner. I know I've destroyed an M8 in a P40B before (quad .30 cals and dual .50's), I'm betting the .50 cals did most of the work.
ugh. 1800 rounds of 50/30 cals does kill tank tracks. even try it. i guarantee it will kill the treads on a m4 or a panzer.
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Smokin, you can track him if hes holding still. And I've tracked tanks with a P-51D when I used to fly it.
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I set that c202 thing up because I have tracked a tank with one.
Hell.....a c202 has a hard enough time downing a plane made of aluminum.........but it can track a tank?
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Smokin, you can track him if hes holding still. And I've tracked tanks with a P-51D when I used to fly it.
uh, 4 to 6 .50cals vs 2 .50cal and 2 7.9mm...big difference in destructive power. the c202 should not be able to track a tank even in the ah world, for that matter none of the non-cannon equipped aircraft should be able to.
this is supposedly off a panzer iii
(http://battlefieldseast.com/images/pzkw%20iii%20section.jpg)
the .50 would have a hard time doing much more than minor damage and no amount of 7mm is going to do anything but knock the mud off. 20mm ap at the right angle could do some damage, 30-37mm ap absolutely, with a good hit.
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Yeah, but in the AH world bullets and shells are just assigned a damage value. As long as its unarmored, you can damage it. If its armored, you can damage it as long as your bullet would penetrate the armor.
HTC doesn't model the bullets tearing apart a link in the track, they just model the track taking more and more damage untill it breaks.
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If you hung a stretch of track up at a firing range, unloaded 6x or 8x 50cal at it nonstop, don't you think it would eventually fail? Due to whatever weaknesses, inherrent or accidental, the more you shoot at it, the greater the chance of destroying it. What you complain about is the same as with airplane wings in-game. You may not see every last consequence of the damage, but it is there.
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Yeah, but in the AH world bullets and shells are just assigned a damage value. As long as its unarmored, you can damage it. If its armored, you can damage it as long as your bullet would penetrate the armor.
HTC doesn't model the bullets tearing apart a link in the track, they just model the track taking more and more damage untill it breaks.
That's not how damage is modeled, there are no "hit points" for any of the vehicles, be it a plane or a tank. Damage is not calculated that a tank or any other vehicle will receive damage until it breaks and then it's dead or disabled.
ack-ack
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If you hung a stretch of track up at a firing range, unloaded 6x or 8x 50cal at it nonstop, don't you think it would eventually fail? Due to whatever weaknesses, inherrent or accidental, the more you shoot at it, the greater the chance of destroying it. What you complain about is the same as with airplane wings in-game. You may not see every last consequence of the damage, but it is there.
it's possible krusty as long as you were able to concentrate fire on a particular area and you're within 5-600 yards or less, but that's not what happens with an airplane diving in from several thousand feet up. the angle isn't optimal, the amount of ammunition on target is minimal, you have a better chance of winning the powerball.
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That's not how damage is modeled, there are no "hit points" for any of the vehicles, be it a plane or a tank. Damage is not calculated that a tank or any other vehicle will receive damage until it breaks and then it's dead or disabled.
ack-ack
How do they model damage for something such as tracks? Do they actually keep track of the damage each individual bullet does to the track, and have it break only when its been shot clean through or something?
And how do they decide when your wing breaks off? Do you actually have to land enough bullets on the wing spar to the point that it will break under the stress of flight?
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uh, 4 to 6 .50cals vs 2 .50cal and 2 7.9mm...big difference in destructive power. the c202 should not be able to track a tank even in the ah world, for that matter none of the non-cannon equipped aircraft should be able to.
this is supposedly off a panzer iii
(http://battlefieldseast.com/images/pzkw%20iii%20section.jpg)
the .50 would have a hard time doing much more than minor damage and no amount of 7mm is going to do anything but knock the mud off. 20mm ap at the right angle could do some damage, 30-37mm ap absolutely, with a good hit.
Actually, that does look like something that a Browning .50 would tear up. The armor penetration on the Browning .50 was 19mm, that will tear that track up.
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uh, 4 to 6 .50cals vs 2 .50cal and 2 7.9mm...big difference in destructive power. the c202 should not be able to track a tank even in the ah world, for that matter none of the non-cannon equipped aircraft should be able to.
this is supposedly off a panzer iii
(http://battlefieldseast.com/images/pzkw%20iii%20section.jpg)
the .50 would have a hard time doing much more than minor damage and no amount of 7mm is going to do anything but knock the mud off. 20mm ap at the right angle could do some damage, 30-37mm ap absolutely, with a good hit.
That scale in that pic is a bit misleading.............or it's not a panzer track.
Panzer tracks were 725mm wide which means they are plenty thick as well as being made of forged steel rather than most armor on tanks which is either cast or welded up and significantly weaker per it's thickness.
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That's not how damage is modeled, there are no "hit points" for any of the vehicles, be it a plane or a tank. Damage is not calculated that a tank or any other vehicle will receive damage until it breaks and then it's dead or disabled.
ack-ack
I think Tank Ace was quite correct in his assessment. There are "hit points" for each component. It takes X amount of damage before it breaks, be it a wing, a tank track, or a turret.
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Not really sure how damage is score here but I have experienced plenty of times when I manned a 37mm airfield gun and landed 130+ hits all over a tiger with at least 40 on the tracks and see him drive off whereupon he gets tracked by a p47 in one strafing run.
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Not really sure how damage is score here but I have experienced plenty of times when I manned a 37mm airfield gun and landed 130+ hits all over a tiger with at least 40 on the tracks and see him drive off whereupon he gets tracked by a p47 in one strafing run.
It takes about 16 true hits on the tracks to immobilize a Tiger with the manned field ack. You can test it offline.
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It takes about 16 true hits on the tracks to immobilize a Tiger with the manned field ack. You can test it offline.
Only takes about 3 to immobilize one when I'm driving :noid. Contrary to my name, I have just terrible luck as far as survival in a tank goes.
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If you fire at the side on the tank there are other parts that can be damaged to immobilize the tank which all manifest in "detracked effect". By that I mean all the sidewheels and track supports. Howeverer I find it unlikely that a 50 Cal could cut the track itself on a late war medium tank. Mind you there were also flimsier tracks in lighter vehicles but even against those I doubt that .50Cal would not penetrate ie. exceed the damage threshold. Compared to track itself there are places that are easier to penetrate in a tank -as was evident in British 20mm testing against a captured Pz3.
-C+
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How about this.....
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(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/919/ap19az.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/ap19az.jpg/)
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9960/ap23wz.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/ap23wz.jpg/)
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mmmmmm ... data :aok
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How about this.....
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(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/919/ap19az.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/ap19az.jpg/)
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9960/ap23wz.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/ap23wz.jpg/)
That stuff is always good to see!!! Thanks for sharing!
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How about this.....
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(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/919/ap19az.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/ap19az.jpg/)
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9960/ap23wz.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/ap23wz.jpg/)
doesn't look like .50 cal will penetrate tank tracks from an airplane at any range...and .30 cal will just scratch the rust. and depending on the construction, even the road wheels could be safe.
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doesn't look like .50 cal will penetrate tank tracks from an airplane at any range...and .30 cal will just scratch the rust. and depending on the construction, even the road wheels could be safe.
A couple of things to consider.... WWII vintage tank tracks were not as strong as spec armor plate. They were usually inferior to common 1010 cold rolled steel. A .50 cal AP round will easily penetrate 0.5" of cold rolled steel. A second thing to consider is that deck armor of many tanks was 25mm or less in thickness. This means engines and fuel tanks may be at risk. Especially considering the erosive effect of many hits in a relatively small area. A heavy concentration of .50 hits can also shoot off radio antennas, damage optics, lights and anything else not armored.
An example of not penetrating armor, yet disabling a target can be found in the naval battle off of Samar in the P.I., October 1944. The USS Johnston scored between sixty and eighty 5"/38 hits on a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. Not a single round penetrated the Cruiser's armor. Yet, her superstructure was wrecked, the bridge demolished, central fire control knocked out and fires raged in several locations. She was effectively out of the battle, yet her vital engineering spaces, magazines and main guns were undamaged. Indeed, in the same fight, the Jeep carrier White Plains disabled another Cruiser with a single 5" hit. That round magically found the torpedo tubes amidships and caused two of them to detonate.
I suppose that my point is that one can never rule out anything....
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i get your point but we're not talking about the tank armor widewing, it's the tracks. the german tank treads were generally forged steel with some areas of each link measuring nearly 2 inches thick depending on the vehicle they were made for. obviously, concentrated fire on a thin spot would cause breakage but, considering the speed and angle of an airplane attack, getting that kind of accurate machine gun fire on a small area that is under the tank would be akin to buying just one powerball ticket and winning.
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The tank tracks were stronger than the armor.
The armor was not forged and welded up...........well....except for the front hull armor of many T34s that were forged by a rolling mill.
Ferry Porsche covers tank armor and engine testing quite a bit in his book "we at porsche".
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I have a complaint in the same general area. All US late-war planes carried the same .50? Assuming the answer is yes....why is a P51 invariably the only plane that can de-wing me at 1.0k, yet no other US rides can do that?
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The b17 can de-wing you beyond d1500
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I have a complaint in the same general area. All US late-war planes carried the same .50? Assuming the answer is yes....why is a P51 invariably the only plane that can de-wing me at 1.0k, yet no other US rides can do that?
Confirmation bias? Shooting platform?
Every air mounted Browning .50 in AH refers to the same exact piece of code as I understand it. I seem to recall HiTech stating that.
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There is the aircraft M2 .50 cal MG, and then there is the ground vehicle M2 .50 cal MG.
Simply do a damage test on offline hangers and see just how different the P40, P47, and P51 .50 cals truly are (they are no different). Yes, the damage dealt to a OBJ is not the same as vs aircraft, but there is a correlation.
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The tank tracks were stronger than the armor.
You know this how? Tank tracks were more resistant to penetration than rolled, face hardened, homogenous armor plate?
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An example of not penetrating armor, yet disabling a target can be found in the naval battle off of Samar in the P.I., October 1944. The USS Johnston scored between sixty and eighty 5"/38 hits on a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. Not a single round penetrated the Cruiser's armor. Yet, her superstructure was wrecked, the bridge demolished, central fire control knocked out and fires raged in several locations. She was effectively out of the battle, yet her vital engineering spaces, magazines and main guns were undamaged. Indeed, in the same fight, the Jeep carrier White Plains disabled another Cruiser with a single 5" hit. That round magically found the torpedo tubes amidships and caused two of them to detonate.
I suppose that my point is that one can never rule out anything....
Here's a few prime examples of this for example - given the Japanese lack of ingenuity (on a reasonable level), its not surprisingly to see a single 5 inch shell take out a Cruiser - given the fact they had a tendency to store long lance torpedoes on the deck of destroyers (let along CL's) to slow down reload time.
Another fine example of this would be on Lae, where a Japanese maintenance crew had to wait for spare parts rather then gut a few planes rather then fix one plane, 4 planes were damaged but had enough spare parts to fully fix one aircraft at the time, however they were forbidden to touch the damage planes. On the other hand, Torpedo 8 was on Guadalcanal had lost all aircraft in bombardments not 1 was flyable. However someone decided it was a great idea to hack up a bunch of destroyed aircraft to piece one together - a TBM to bomb artillery positions. Some how they managed to do it and the bird actually flew. I don't remember what happen to the TBM, I do know it was destroyed upon landing after a few sorties (where as replacements showed up).
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Confirmation bias? Shooting platform?
Every air mounted Browning .50 in AH refers to the same exact piece of code as I understand it. I seem to recall HiTech stating that.
merely observation on my part......dunno. Never happens at that range (06:00 view) from any other plane
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You know this how? Tank tracks were more resistant to penetration than rolled, face hardened, homogenous armor plate?
The same way that drop forged parts are stronger than rolled parts.
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The same way that drop forged parts are stronger than rolled parts.
Not necessarily true. The materials and processes determine strength as much or more than the forming method.
Most WWII armor plate was often manufactured by hot rolling. Rolling distributes stress evenly, whereas hot drop forging usually results in areas of localized stress. Hot forging is required when secondary machining is required, because cold forging work hardens the steel to the point where it is extremely difficult to machine. Track sections require secondary machining.
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As a reply to the topic of whether things have "hit points" in this game, both cases are partly true.
Points of failure (anything that shows up on your damaged parts listing) have "hit points" and will fail after enough collective damage is done to them. Armor, however, does not fail and thus does not have "hit points." Armor is always the same strength, and every shot put into it is a binary "did it penetrate? Yes/No" question. So, if you're firing at a tank from above (ignoring splash damage off near-misses hitting the ground) with guns that can't penetrate the armor, you won't do any damage to the tracks. Firing side-on to where your rounds don't interact with the armor will result in damage accumulating and eventually destroying the track.
There actually was an issue before where the tracks were far too strong and people could run around strafing tracks with cannon-heavy planes to steal kills when the tanks were actually destroyed. The "strength" of the tracks has been reduced since then, though I still think it's a bit much. Another good question is whether the road wheels and track itself are separate (and when either fails, the track is destroyed), or whether the whole mechanism has one "hitpoint pool."
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Hey all
This video , if you have not seen it before , will give you a good insight of diff air-weapons of ww2.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9101895862044064019
Enjoy