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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JUGgler on August 23, 2011, 06:30:13 PM

Title: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: JUGgler on August 23, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
So I'm buzzing around TT last night doing my impression of the Boston Strangler. I had flown 6-8 sorties thus far each one having been jumped by "every single red icon" within icon range for each of the sorties, quite typical actually. I up again and am approaching 2 K4s that are engaged with 4-6 greenies, now I happened to be nit while all the other muppets were bish but I wasn't talkin much on squad vox so I had little idea of what they were doing or where. As I approached the 109s I heard Grizz tell Hemp "LA7, niki, spit and jug in". I thought the 109s had plenty to handle so I did not interfere, then Grizz said "watch the A20. I started circling the fight about 2K out just watching when Grizz once again called out "the A20 is a Boston" So I knew the 109s were Hemp and Grizz. I did not say a word and continued to stay within 2K and watch to there final demise vs more horde, this got me to thinking as something just didn't seem normal.
 As I pondered this situation today I realized what was different. Grizz and Hemp disregarded (and rightfully so) the Boston as not a threat untill more threatening targets were dealt with. This I decided is quite contrary to 95% "or more" of the AH population. It is routine (to say the least) to have baddies drop everything to frantically try and get what they percieve as an "easy kill" even to the point of putting themselves in a disadvantagous position to more threatening aircraft. This mindset is quite silly as "yes" you may get the kill on the plane that is "absolutely no threat to you" but you will be eradicated in short order for this decision. Does it make you feel better to shoot down one easy kill before you get pwned, or do you think all the red guys around you don't see you? What exactly is the thinking here?


Instead of acting like panty wetting teenage girls that just saw Elvis for the 1st time, how about apply some common sense to your fight, do some "THREAT MANAGEMENT", understand the situation you're in and act accordingly.

There is a BIG difference tween those who are good and the rest of the population in more ways than just flying skill!

Learn it, Practice it, Own it!



 :salute



JUGgler
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: StokesAk on August 23, 2011, 06:33:22 PM
Good post Juggler.  :aok
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: JUGgler on August 23, 2011, 06:36:56 PM
Good post JUGgler.  :aok


FIXED   :aok


 :salute



JUGgler
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Wiley on August 23, 2011, 06:44:28 PM
I look at it more from an E standpoint.  Who has the E to be a threat?  Deal with them first.  If the A20 has position, he might be the biggest threat.

That's what keeps me coming back.  Every fight is different.  There is no instantly apparent right way of approaching every fight.

I agree thoughJug.  Too few people approach it like that.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: grizz441 on August 23, 2011, 06:49:13 PM
Perfect example of what NOT to do which happened three times in a row at fighter town last night:

Jug comes to base at 15k and dives past all the fighters to kill a formation of Ju88's, looping over and over again until they were dead.  He died after a couple of these passes.  He then called the kill a "pick".  :lol
Edit: I forgot to mention the Ju88's were on the deck.  :lol

He comes back again and again, these times diving on players going wheels up and basically does the same aggro suicide run trying to get a couple easy kills before biting the dust.  He call it his "mission".

It was pretty ridiculous and was obvious all he cared about was acquiring the easiest kills that he could find without regard to survival.




WGTrigg in case you were wondering.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Shane on August 23, 2011, 06:51:27 PM
I have *the* film of that engagement.  :noid  The Boston was out of reach by the 109's anyway, from an
e-standpoint.

But yeah, tactical threat assessment is a valuable skill. I'll often atually be setting up the one who thinks they're going to pick me.   :joystick:
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: grizz441 on August 23, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
I have *the* film of that engagement.  :noid  The Boston was out of reach by the 109's anyway, from an
e-standpoint.

But yeah, tactical threat assessment is a valuable skill. I'll often atually be setting up the one who thinks they're going to pick me.   :joystick:

Actually he was within arms grasp, just 1.5Kish above our 300 mph K4s.  I was more worried about the other 4 though.  :joystick:
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Karnak on August 23, 2011, 07:03:14 PM
Good post.  Highest threat dies first.  However, if I am not threatened, well, P-51Ds are a dime a dozen, but the Spitfire Mk I is a rare bird and as such, a trophy.  :p
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: RTHolmes on August 23, 2011, 07:03:56 PM
:aok

be Will Munny in the Big Whisky saloon ;)
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Beefcake on August 23, 2011, 07:21:07 PM
Great post JUGgler!

This describes last night for me perfectly. I was bored and started upping C47's with the intent of drawing down enemy fighters, and boy let me tell you it works. The amount of fighters that would dive through the friendly fighter cap down to try and kill me was amazing.

There was a lone P51 that ingnored the fighters in the area and came straight for me. I dodged his attack and he made a hard turn, bleeding his E and attacked, and missed again. At that point he had lost his advantage and was killed by the friendly fighters defending the field.

Since I fly B25's a lot I see this happen all the time, people will ignore all the fighters and come straight for me. Usually I do end up dying but it's not uncommon that they end up dying as well to friendlies in the area. I have a film of one of our more well known pilots diving his 262 down through a fighter cap and trying to attack my B25, however, he compressed and crashed into a nearby hillside. (And no it wasn't Grizz.  :D )
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: kilo2 on August 23, 2011, 07:57:42 PM
It works in more than one way though. The one you disregard can just as easily sneak up on you. I have on several occasions passed up the perceived easy plane to go after the La-7 just to have it come and pick me off later. To me its more of plane type, its alt, relative heading etc.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Guppy35 on August 23, 2011, 08:02:05 PM
My problem is no one seems to disregard the low 38G.  Instead they all go for it :)
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: j500ss on August 23, 2011, 08:12:54 PM
JUG..... I was there for a couple hours last night, first hop out I got smoked by a plane I never hear or saw, it was Grizz   :salute.   As I was re-upping I thought to myself " this is dumb".  A bunch of red guys ( I knew who they were for most part)  and I'm going in low, and with little E.  Did it anyways  :rofl

Reason being was partially what you talked about, the other part, was to work on SA. Which to me is part of what your talking about as well.   I've just started to get back in the game after a year off.  I like to mix it up, and probably don't fly such a good plane to do that ( 51 )  yet I find most of the time I get killed by what actually is the high threat plane, or by lack of SA.  After some time I found I was actually seeing the threats earlier, and felt better about evading them for the most part.  Sure I died every time  :ahand   I'm not good really and my gunnery sux eggs  :lol         but I got something out of it I think, and definitely this writeup too, so it's all good.

Great write up for sure sir!!   :aok
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: wil3ur on August 23, 2011, 08:27:12 PM
I've been trying to figure out the 38... I flew it a couple months in Mid War and have graduated myself to late war.  It is a magnet for all sorts of gentlemenly attention.  I've found in addition to threat assesment, when you have a huge crowd that really wants to get to know you, being able to manage your position and E is a better defense in many instances than going after the biggest threat.  By going after that guy, I'll be setting myself up for the others to close and make angles... however if I pick my own slash through a group that hopefully gives me an advantage, can take out one of the threats, and hopefully bleed something of the main threat, it can help setup for rope-a-dopes, overshoots and all sorts of other fun things.  Each flight is dynamic though, and I still get pwned as much as I kill anything so feel free to disregard.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Karnak on August 23, 2011, 09:12:40 PM
The Mossie doesn't seem to draw as much attention as it used to.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: guncrasher on August 23, 2011, 09:52:02 PM
Great post JUGgler!

This describes last night for me perfectly. I was bored and started upping C47's with the intent of drawing down enemy fighters, and boy let me tell you it works. The amount of fighters that would dive through the friendly fighter cap down to try and kill me was amazing.

There was a lone P51 that ingnored the fighters in the area and came straight for me. I dodged his attack and he made a hard turn, bleeding his E and attacked, and missed again. At that point he had lost his advantage and was killed by the friendly fighters defending the field.

Since I fly B25's a lot I see this happen all the time, people will ignore all the fighters and come straight for me. Usually I do end up dying but it's not uncommon that they end up dying as well to friendlies in the area. I have a film of one of our more well known pilots diving his 262 down through a fighter cap and trying to attack my B25, however, he compressed and crashed into a nearby hillside. (And no it wasn't Grizz.  :D )




in your goon case, you were the biggest threat as you are the only one that can take the base.  had there only beena couple of fighters perhaps it might have been different situation.  last night we had an noe mission, I flew past no less than 5 110, 2 fighters and two sets of buffs.  not one of them turned to attack me faked a ho to another 110 and proceeded to kill 3 of the 5  goons.

threat assessment  is one of the basic skills learned by a decent player and for jugler to say that 95% (or more) lack this skill is arrogant.

semp
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: JUGgler on August 23, 2011, 10:09:12 PM

in your goon case, you were the biggest threat as you are the only one that can take the base.  had there only beena couple of fighters perhaps it might have been different situation.  last night we had an noe mission, I flew past no less than 5 110, 2 fighters and two sets of buffs.  not one of them turned to attack me faked a ho to another 110 and proceeded to kill 3 of the 5  goons.

threat assessment  is one of the basic skills learned by a decent player and for jugler to say that 95% (or more) lack this skill is arrogant.

semp


I knew my secret admirer would show up!




JUGgler
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: guncrasher on August 23, 2011, 10:47:52 PM

I knew my secret admirer would show up!




JUGgler

now you are being arrogant and conceited. 

semp
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Nathan60 on August 23, 2011, 11:34:04 PM
Semp I really think  Jugs  was just throwing a  number out  there 95%?  No  but  an awful lot  of people  will leave people hanging to go kill a buff it's really irritating when they go  off after  17's and  get downed before they  are even within 1 k for once I kinda  agree with Jugs
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Midway on August 23, 2011, 11:34:58 PM
 :O  JUGgler is capable of intelligent thought.  :aok

 :headscratch: or is there more to this....another post with a double meaning (ex. he's in the top 5% and we are all noobs and dweebs and pantied girls)? :uhoh

 :noid
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: AAJagerX on August 23, 2011, 11:35:34 PM
Seriously JUG, I'm ashamed of you.  You should take EVERY opportunity to kill your squaddies in that situation.  Nothing is quite as fun as squad vox when they realize what just happened to em!   :neener:
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Beefcake on August 24, 2011, 12:53:06 AM

.......in your goon case, you were the biggest threat as you are the only one that can take the base.  had there only beena couple of fighters perhaps it might have been different situation....

semp

Actually I was over a friendly field with 4-5 friendly fighters and several wirbles down below. Had this been at an enemy field and I was going for the town then I would agree completely. No, no this was just a guy wanting an easy kill and he ended up dying for it.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Orbitson on August 24, 2011, 01:31:26 AM
 :aok Great thread!
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: guncrasher on August 24, 2011, 01:51:58 AM
Seriously JUG, I'm ashamed of you.  You should take EVERY opportunity to kill your squaddies in that situation.  Nothing is quite as fun as squad vox when they realize what just happened to em!   :neener:
oh he's done that before. killed them in 262, but I dont think he was aware it was them as he picked them in a sea of red.  good a good film of it, pretty funny actually.

semp
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Dragon on August 24, 2011, 07:44:04 AM
Good stuff JUGgler  :aok
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: LCADolby on August 24, 2011, 08:58:51 AM
:O  JUGgler is capable of intelligent thought.  :aok
He overheard it in a bar somewhere  :old:

 :banana:
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Changeup on August 24, 2011, 09:33:14 AM
:O  JUGgler is capable of intelligent thought.  :aok

 :headscratch: or is there more to this....another post with a double meaning (ex. he's in the top 5% and we are all noobs and dweebs and pantied girls)? :uhoh

 :noid

Holy cow....I give up.  The guy makes a post that is intelligent, very helpful and 100% dead-on-balls accurate and Sigmund Freud shows up to take a giant whiz on the advice.  What a cesspool.

JUG and other vets....stop helping them and just start killing um....maybe they'll get it then.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: JUGgler on August 24, 2011, 11:52:57 AM
Seriously JUG, I'm ashamed of you.  You should take EVERY opportunity to kill your squaddies in that situation.  Nothing is quite as fun as squad vox when they realize what just happened to em!   :neener:


Well I was in a Boston, so the chances of killing muppets was slim indeed. I did get crammed into the scalp bag of Fester and Hemp though, ugh very hot and moist!!!




JUGgler
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: JUGgler on August 24, 2011, 03:04:59 PM
oh he's done that before. killed them in 262, but I dont think he was aware it was them as he picked them in a sea of red.  good a good film of it, pretty funny actually.

semp

I have NO moral issues with killing muppets, although it is more difficult then killing the rest of you  :angel:



Post it, it will be good for laughs!!



JUGgler
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Condor11 on August 25, 2011, 04:09:30 AM
I look at it more from an E standpoint.  Who has the E to be a threat?  Deal with them first.  If the A20 has position, he might be the biggest threat.

That's what keeps me coming back.  Every fight is different.  There is no instantly apparent right way of approaching every fight.

I agree thoughJug.  Too few people approach it like that.
Wiley.

Well said, my approach is similar.
offensively I see who poses the greatest threat to the type of fight I want to fight. If they have the ability to pick, chase, turn with or climb on me, they take priority over the easy kill low n slow.

Defensively, I focus on who is the most immidiate shooter/what type of guns they have got.

Situational awareness is the key to survival imho.
 :salute
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: JunkyII on August 25, 2011, 05:25:21 AM
I go after the quicker birds first K4s, La7s...
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Wiley on August 25, 2011, 11:48:55 AM
When I'm entering a crowd, my thought process and target priority goes something along these lines:

1) Is anything higher than me?  If yes, it's the threat to be dealt with, I typically try to draw him into a fight a bit away from the crowd if possible.  If there are multiple higher bandits, it's completely dependent on the day.  If there's more than 3, I'll probably try to get over them.  If there's 2 or 3 it's entirely dependent on how I'm flying that day/how froggy I feel/how many friendlies are in position to engage them.

2) If nothing's higher than me, what's the highest bandit?  If he's engaged and moving away from me, I'll probably look for other prey.  If he's got smash but I can catch him, I'll probably try to engage him.  If he dives out under other bandits, I'm off.  If he's climbing up to a friendly and I'm in position to pounce, I do so.

3) Every time the bandit I'm making a pass at either dives out or I get him, I return to step 1 and reassess.

I prioritize the planes more or less by a combination of plane capability and smash.  If there's a fast plane like an LA, P51, 190 or 109K anywhere close to my alt and he's got even a bit of speed, he's high priority.  Anything close to my alt with smash is a priority.  Beyond that, it's all situational.  I also try to keep my speed at 250-300mph or faster at all times unless the opportunity presents itself where I can go fangs out and saddle up for a quick kill and I figure I have time to regain E or at least speed before the nearest bandit can get to me.

I try to keep my 'rules' simple so I don't get bogged down too much in trying to figure out what I should be doing when the bandit makes a move.  Obviously, there's a legion of variables that will cause exceptions to the above rules, like if I'm defending a base and I see a goon, but this is the gist of what's going through my head most of the time.  I'm sure there are better ways, but that's how I approach it.

Wiley.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Debrody on August 25, 2011, 11:50:06 AM
The one at my wingie's six first...
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: Zoney on August 25, 2011, 02:40:24 PM
I just follow Wiley around.
Title: Re: Threat management, observation and a lesson
Post by: cobia38 on August 25, 2011, 04:43:51 PM

  i wonder if i can get a "boston"  icon for my havoc   :headscratch:   then people will ignore me :devil