Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Badger on May 19, 2000, 08:31:00 AM
-
I have noted a tremendous increase in the dynamic interaction between users on this BBS, especially as some great new features and functionality are announced for the AH product. Granted, many of those have been highly adversarial, but in my opinion, that's a sign that Aces High has long left incubation and evolved through its business puberty stage, now becoming a force within the active on-line flight simulation community.
The participants here should take pride in their contributions toward helping this game mature, even if it involves controversy or "teeth gnashing" that sometimes gets a little too personal. I would prefer dealing with this kind of interaction as opposed to a sheep herding mentality of certain factions that keep saying, be patient and it will happen. That simply doesn't work anymore with this millennium's economic realities and marketplace. Today's business paradigm is driven by customers who define product R&D in real time, not as in previous decades, where companies owned the absolute power and could develop a product or service with a "build-it and they will come" marketing approach. This shift and the rapidity with which it has occurred, is very similar to what happened to electric service companies and automobile manufacturers at the turn of the 20th century. There were literally hundreds of companies competing to be the principle supplier of those two "new technology" needs to the consumer. After all of the marketing and positioning was done, there were just a handful left. I believe you will see the same effect in the Internet (including on-line gaming) as this new technology and economic force settles down, just as electricity and personal transportation did so in 1900.
What does that mean to Aces High competing in a military on-line gaming environment with flight simulation as a primary focus? Well, there's an old business adage from 1912 that says, in any business sector, #1 makes money, #2 breaks even, #3 is loses money. HTC definitely does not want to be #3 and #2 is a very tough place being "too sick to leave and not healthy enough to stay". So, the best plan would be to keep doing what they're doing and go straight up the middle with that 70/30 product positioning, using feedback from mediums such as this to help develop their product NICHE and achieve #1 status, certainly in the flight simulation domain. The new uber plane concept though some form of Aces High "bonus bucks" is a good example of that strategy.
I believe they do have to change one thing to help themselves and in turn, help all of us out here on this BBS. HTC to this point in time have maintained a very secretive approach to interaction and communication. Now, I can't argue the need not to tip one's hand on trade secrets to the competition etc., but I think the recent dynamics on this BBS indicate some requirement to modify slightly, the "stealth" mode PR and marketing communications. A good example is how quickly this place settled now and got re-focused, once Pyro posted his message clarifying the uber plane thing. Before than, it was like a Salem witch hunt with people yelling louder to be heard and others screaming for them to shut up, which was a completely unproductive a world of hurt to be watching on-screen. Even allowing some time for them to get a feel for how we would react to their "sound bite" snippet of a possible new feature, Pyro or Hitech should have jumped in much sooner to save us all a lot of additional consumption of valium.
If I were to recommend anything constructive at this stage of HTC's corporate growth, it would be the implementation of either a closed community of users to facilitate R&D feedback on both ideas and even perhaps real product testing, such as pre-release betas. I have heard anecdotally from other sources outside of HTC though, that the personal style of this management is a barrier to wanting this kind of development interaction to occur. I'm not sure why, but since I'm not an investor, it's none of my business except as a puzzled consumer. Insecurity doesn't work in the new business model and contradicts the need to react to customers in real time for the best R&D. It should never be about who's idea it was or who gets the credit, but more about the resulting product or service being the best design that everyone involved could have achieved. In my opinion, that's the path to becoming #1.
An alternative to that approach would be placing someone, or a few people, into corporate confidence as they do with CM's (Community Managers) and permit them to interact with this BBS as intermediaries with a much more communicative marketing interaction than we currently get from HTC. I don't particularly want either Hitech or Pyro wasting huge amounts of personal time chatting with us instead of doing what they are very good at, which is researching and writing code to improve the product we use. At the same time, I think they're failing to step up and address HTC's current growth needs to improving R&D, PR and marketing communications fast enough, to keep up with the growing customer base. This dilemma is a very common threat to many small companies at this stage of growth and normally manifests itself through a stagnation of revenues. Too small without enough resources to grow and too big to handle the chaos of growth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Simply learn from history. Look at how badly iEN (WB) handles their outward exposure to their customers on both AGW and the iEN BBS. There messages are divisive and contradictory much of the time and it does nothing more than take what could be a great R&D and Public Relations environment for their customers and potential investors, turning it into a nightmare of corporate communications negatism. I don't want to see this AH BBS potentially "death spiral" into the same problem by having HTC not recognize when it's time for some solid facilitative marketing communications.
Please HTC, address this as you grow. I understand that it takes time to coordinate and communicate, but it's time for some delegation and empowerment.
As Napoleon said at Waterloo when he realized he was losing and where he was the most vulnerable, "ask of me anything but time". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Just some personal observations for thought......
Thanks for listening.
Regards,
Badger
The New baby Harp Seals
-
Interesting observations, Badger(as usual).
As customers(and posters to this board), we're all obviously very interested in how the development process of AH works. We all want to know "the latest scoop" and "what's coming down the pipeline" on a daily basis.
Frankly, I think that Pyro and HiTech have learned a good lesson from their WB experience. If I remember correctly, we hardly ever heard from either one on AGW, and that created some ill-will from the posters on AGW. In my mind, their level of communication on AH is much better.
One thing I have noticed, however, is that during the beta, Pyro and HiTech seemed to be available much more frequently and were really "drumming up business" by making themselves very open to communication. That has slackened off a bit once AH went Pay, IMHO.
To be fair to Pyro and HiTech, some of us are not exactly tactful in our conversations with them. Anytime one of us goes overboard and starts on a rant, it reduces the desire of HTC to keep the lines of communication open. Let's face it, who likes to continue a dialogue when you are constantly put on the defensive?
We can do a great deal to foster the open communication we so desire on this board:
1. Use constructive criticism
2. Keep emotions in check when discussing issues
3. Learn the value of patience (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Unfortunately, we are all in an era of instant gratification, where we want everything "NOW". Last time I checked, game development(and programming, for that matter) is not a trivial thing, and it takes time to get it right.
One thing I think HTC could do to foster more creative thinking(and less whining), would be to have an ideas forumn, where we could share ideas with HTC about the future direction of AH. As it stands right now, even if someone comes up with a brilliant idea, we never know if HTC has used that idea to improve the game. Not once have I ever seen HTC acknowledge that they have used one of our ideas from this board.
IMHO, if HTC were to acknowledge that an idea generated on this board has helped them to improve their product, it would go a long way to increasing the amount of thinking on this board, and would also help reduce the amount of whining from people who feel that their ideas are going completely unnoticed.
------------------
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
"Turning Knight & Bishop sheep into lamb chops since 1999"
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
I trust HTC to do what amounts to essentially, the right things. So many issues (like...ummm, damn near all) fall in that dreaded grey area that it is preferred to have the most experienced people do the math and make the calls.
Read ishmals post somewhere on this board, a great idea to some, okay to others and worthless yet to more. HTs reply indicated a pretty damn deep understanding of this genre and since its basically his sim, I am content to go with his decisions until I am no longer content to go with them.
I remember a lot of the arguments back on AGW
when HT was the CEO and yeah, HT does come across like he knows more than most everyone else, funny thing is, I spect he does (Pyro gets similar admiration from me on similar counts as well).
Its a very dynamic thing, this online combat/flight sim and I just prefer not to get bogged down in the details, there are always multiple answers to every complaint and he who steers the *best* course through the jagged straights wins.
As for the kneepad, I recall getting a reply from HT or Pyro that the idea wasnt in the works at that time but that any and all ideas were welcomed.
Guncam enhancements anyone?
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Excellent observations banana...<salute>
As part of a separate research project, I reviewed hundreds of messages from this BBS dated last fall and you are 100% correct. There was much more communication during what one would believe, was the heaviest development cycle, as opposed to this spring. I also agree about acknowledging ideas. I think Yeager's Mission Knee Board information is a good example, although perhaps the concept was already in the software design document, before he suggested it. Still, some form of recognition to encourage constructive participation on these boards would be useful for everyone.
Regards,
Badger
-
Originally posted by banana:
One thing I think HTC could do to foster more creative thinking(and less whining), would be to have an ideas forumn, where we could share ideas with HTC about the future direction of AH. As it stands right now, even if someone comes up with a brilliant idea, we never know if HTC has used that idea to improve the game. Not once have I ever seen HTC acknowledge that they have used one of our ideas from this board.
I can give you an example of this. Downtown and a few others (whom I can't recall at this time) asked for squad high light to change the dots on the map to orange along with icons. I believe Downtown also posted it on one of the boards. Shortly there after it was in the game.
They watch the boards and do listen to what we say
-
I think they're doing great. Look at the list of fixes for each release (in the readme files or in the news forum). Just about every single on of those is something from the BBS. Results speak a lot louder than words.
-
Very thoughtful post badger but keep in mind the old saying that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Alright, Badger, I read your novella, so I'll play along for a bit because I am bored.
I believe they do have to change one thing to help themselves and in turn, help all of us out here on this BBS. HTC to this point in time have maintained a very secretive approach to interaction and communication. Now, I can't argue the need not to tip one's hand on trade secrets to the competition etc., but I think the recent dynamics on this BBS indicate some requirement to modify slightly, the "stealth" mode PR and marketing communications. A good example is how quickly this place settled now and got re-focused, once Pyro posted his message clarifying the uber plane thing. Before than, it was like a Salem witch hunt with people yelling louder to be heard and others screaming for them to shut up, which was a completely unproductive a world of hurt to be watching on-screen. Even allowing some time for them to get a feel for how we would react to their "sound bite" snippet of a possible new feature, Pyro or Hitech should have jumped in much sooner to save us all a lot of additional consumption of valium.
I think HTC has been more than forthcoming with details about future enhancements to the game. I went back and checked the threads regarding the points for plane changes. The simHQ review that first mentioned these changes was published at 6:45 AM on the 17th. The concerned players started posting at about 1pm. There were about 10 or so concerned posts up by the time that Hitech responded at 5:30pm.
I don't know what you expect HTC to do? Check the boards every hour to see if the natives are restless? If people are giving themselves coronaries because HTC hasn't responded to their concerns within four and a half hours, then, frankly, they need to get a life.
I have heard anecdotally from other sources outside of HTC though, that the personal style of this management is a barrier to wanting this kind of development interaction to occur. I'm not sure why, but since I'm not an investor, it's none of my business except as a puzzled consumer. Insecurity doesn't work in the new business model and contradicts the need to react to customers in real time for the best R&D. It should never be about who's idea it was or who gets the credit, but more about the resulting product or service being the best design that everyone involved could have achieved.
Okay, here is a constructive recomendation for you: Drop the speculation about HTC's motives for their design decisions and/or customer service. I think they have a great raport with the community. They frequent the boards, answer questions in real time in the game, and incorporate many ideas brought up here into the game (as Caveman pointed out). I can only think that an eternal pessimist would see things otherwise.
Beyond that, implying that they are insecure and/or afraid to listen to ideas brought forth by the community because it would mean sharing the credit is absurd, and is in no way constructive. Lacing what might otherwise be a constructive post with such poisonous comments makes me question *your* motives. Maybe this is not exactly what you meant to convey?
Gordo
-
Originally posted by blur:
...."a camel is a horse designed by a committee." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
hehehe...I love that one blur..thanks...
Stole it for future use...<salute>
and...the moral is right on. If not done right, a potential disaster in the making. Just look at Hotseat (iEN's external Canadian contract software developer for WB 3.0) and the incredible marketing mess of the iEN BBS "Design Forum". I suspect it's the fear of those things happening that keeps most developers like HTC from being too open. The developer that can overcome that fear and control his PR environment will dominate. Look at what WWII On-line do with an incredible marketing communications engine and those folks don't even have a product on-line. Yet, the consumer is so hyped (read their BBS), they could probably start selling monthly subscriptions right now and I would bet people would start lining up to pay them. It is amazing what form over substance can accomplish.
Regards,
Badger
-
I love having you around here Badger, if for no reason other than the fact that your mini-encylcopedic length posts, make my oversized ones pale in comparison (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Hi Gordo....
Originally posted by Lance:
I don't know what you expect HTC to do? Check the boards every hour to see if the natives are restless? If people are giving themselves coronaries because HTC hasn't responded to their concerns within four and a half hours, then, frankly, they need to get a life.
Your point is well taken, but I think the data timeline may be a little faulty. The amount of multiple thread and multiple posts within threads and general hysteria that started almost from the moment SimHQ published an excellent review, wasn't finally put to rest by Pyro's clarification until almost a day and a half later, not 4 1/2 hours. I could also argue that the wording given to SimHQ might have been a little clearer, so that this community would have never gone down the wrong road in the first place, but I won't go there. That may have actually been deliberate in order to get a reaction from this community to assist in tuning the design of the feature, but I don't know that for a fact, although it is a good idea to do it that way.
I would have thought that a once a day check is something that they would be doing, perhaps I'm wrong. I suspect that HTC staff monitor this BBS in real time to a much higher level than either you or I would guess. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It's academic if they had someone informed and empowered and to provide a marketing front end to this environment anyway, since they would have been able to correct any misconceptions before they got a life. I stand to be corrected, but my system shows the following timeline:
Aces High Review @ SimHQ (Zero shots, new feature info)
05-17-2000 06:45 AM http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003332.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003332.html)
Upcoming additions (Pyro)
05-17-2000 06:01 PM http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum3/HTML/000087.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum3/HTML/000087.html)
Plane Perks (Pyro)
05-18-2000 01:55 PM http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003370.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003370.html)
Originally posted by Lance:
Beyond that, implying that they are insecure and/or afraid to listen to ideas brought forth by the community because it would mean sharing the credit is absurd, and is in no way constructive. Lacing what might otherwise be a constructive post with such poisonous comments makes me question *your* motives. Maybe this is not exactly what you meant to convey?
My apologies...thank you for pointing this out Gordo and giving me the benefit of the doubt as to maybe having more good sense than to make such an asinine statement. Even writing with as much verboseness as I do, it is still difficult to convey true meaning due to a lack of infliction and tone. It was definitely not what I was trying to convey! As I said, it was purely ANECDOTAL third party feedback that arose from independent market research into investment opportunities in on-line gaming venues, such as WB, AH, WWII On-line, plus a dozen others (RPGs) outside this particular genre. Subjectively speaking though, as banana observed as well, there has been a dramatic change in the communicativeness and participation as the product went into "Pay" mode. My "insecurity" comment was a badly worded attempt to promote the idea of a return to that level of interactivity, not a personal attack on either Hitech or Pyro. I was proffering the idea of a marketing individual or CM type people to interface with these types of mediums, not necessarily Hitech or Pyro, to return to the communication and development interaction of last fall. Am I the only one who noticed this subtle change besides banana? Anyway, the archived messages starting from July right through to early spring are an incredibly fascinating read or re-read. I know, because I spent almost two days wading through them putting together a 'white paper' for our firm.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback and the clarification challenge. <Salute>
Regards,
Badger
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
hehehe...thanks Vermillion....
Maybe I could make everyone happier if I just posted pics of naked women, today's newspaper cartoons, yell about an over modeled F4Uc, or perhaps start another thread about how bad a player my long time bud torque is.....hehehe
I think I hear what your really saying my friend... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Of course, you're right again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards,
Badger
-
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate..." (Name that movie!)
Badger, no offense, but when I see a post with more than 100 words in it, I simply skip it.
-
Torque ponders Dach’s post and realizes this man makes Torque feel illiterate, thus Torque must cause serious misfortune to the mention scholar above in the Main.
How many hard-boiled eggs did he eat?
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate..." (Name that movie!)
Badger, no offense, but when I see a post with more than 100 words in it, I simply skip it.
Cool Hand Luke.
-
I couldn't agree more on the observation that (if I may paraphrase) you can shoot yourself in the foot by not providing enough information about changes that are going to affect people.
An information vacuum causes anxiety and forces people to speculate endlessly about what is going to happen. People WILL fill in the information blanks, and it will usually be negative.
I did notice that the furor died down immediately when the information was given by Pyro. We all feel better now. Even if some may not completely satisfied, they can better deal with tangibles.
This is a unique kind of business that is sort of in partnership with the "community", and management has to balance the needs of the community for information with its needs to not tip its hand to the competition. Its interesting.
Enjoyed the post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cgunthr.jpg)
332nd Flying Mongrels
[This message has been edited by Gunthr (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Badger, no offense, but when I see a post with more than 100 words in it, I simply skip it.
hehe...no offense ripsnort, but for you to get to 1581 posts on here, you would have to skip everything over 50 words, not 100. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<Salute>
Regards,
Badger
-
... or rather 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous questions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ok, enough Shakespere...
Badger, as always you pose an interesting question. Like all of your posts, this one has generated some excellent debate.
I personally think HTC has done a better job than most companies of "keeping us in the loop." Only rarely does a week go by that we don't get a new screenshot, a word from Pyro or HT, or a new magazine review. This past week we have received a flood of information from Pyro about the new version. There was also an interview and a review posted containing new screenshots and information. We also were given a lot of information about the upcoming AH Convention. What more could they possibly tell us right now? (Besides what is the average daily Pizza and Wings consumption per staff member; or maybe what they had for lunch that day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) Also note that HT and Pyro have 400+ posts each. That averages out to more than 1 post per day from each of them. Don't forget that Pyro and HT often do Q&A sessions online. (Pyro did one last night. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) Not only that, but almost all of them fly daily in the arena WITH us! (I shot down NATEDOG just the other night. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
I can also say without a doubt that our ideas have been put to use by HTC many times since I've been here. Here's a few things that I can recall that have been suggested and implemented:
Smaller icons, squad highlight, plane additions (Yak9, A6M5, Lancaster, P38L all come to mind), the basis for the new map (base 1 location and layout in particular), the upcoming reward system, less precise bombsights, b17 engine nacelle reworking, 109 cockpit reworking, minor p38 artwork fixes, the web page, FAQ file (they directly added a bunch of stuff I posted to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ), troop drop sound (it was submitted to them by one of us), the ability to customize sounds (AKWabbit's sounds were also added to the downloads page), customizable gunsights (player submitted sight are even included in the AH program), upcoming sound and graphics enhancements, plane flight model revisions (205 & 109 come to mind), someone requested the film view be launched automatically when you try to open a film file and HT responded the next day saying that he will see what it takes to do it, various bug fixes (bouncing bombs in the bombbay, B17 rocket booster easter egg bug (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), ALT-Tab lockup bug, WIN 2000 mouse support all come to mind here), vehicle hangar remote spawn pts, font size for text, plane performance charts, web links within the game, and much, much, much more.
In fact, everytime I fly AH I can see where our ideas have been included into it. I've never played any other game out there that I could say the same about.
Badger I agree with you, good communication is essential to any company. (Especially in the currently very crowded online sim market.) IMO HTC has done an exceptional job to this point. This game for me is like an "undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns." (Meaning I'm an AH addict. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Damn, Lizard beat me. I think I'm going to go eat 3 dozen hard-boiled eggs.
-
Originally posted by bloom25:
... or rather 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous questions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
hehehe..and I always thought it was "outrageous fortunes".... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As always, great content from another perspective bloom25...<salute>
Many truisms in there as well that I had overlooked.....thanks.
Edit add-on: After reading again all of things you show them doing personally, it's a wonder they have time to code at all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Given all these communication duties, don't you think it might be a good idea to start off-loading and empowering some CM type people to handle some of these things?
Regards,
Badger
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Wow, what a memory you have bloom25! <S>
I stand corrected. I didn't realize all of those features were generated from discussions on this BB.
-
" hehehe..and I always thought it was "outrageous fortunes".... "
Thought it was just 'outrageous misfortune'.
-
I have to disagree. I don't see us being secretive about things. We are reserved in what we say because we don't want to mislead and things can change many times before they're done. We don't want to say something and then not come through. But it is that dynamic development process that makes it possible to implement feedback and suggestions. If we had everything planned out already, what would we need feedback for?
Occasionally, news will be come out from articles or reviews to give them extra meat. That's a symbiotic relationship in that they get more eyes reading their articles which leads to us getting more coverage.
We want people's expectations to be realistic. HYPE(How You Please Everyone) is a viable marketing strategy when used smartly and with some restraint, but it's also dangerous. The best games are always the ones that haven't been released yet. It's easy to have an awesome game when it's not out. Overhype it though, and even a good game can appear underwhelming and create an air of disappointment when it's released. That is only made worse by delays in the release.
I don't agree with setting up a group of players to act as intermediaries to us. To me, that is just an unneeded bureauacracy which will cause resentment by creating a special class of players. Everybody has an equal voice in this if they want to use it.
As for using betas before a release, you are correct in that we're not interested in doing that. The reason is because we feel the gains are overshadowed by the costs. Fast development is part of what we're selling. If we mess up, we'll fix it fast, but in the end this saves us a lot of time and makes the game progress much faster.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
-
No one has even ever come close to HTC's interaction with the players!
this is what makes Aces High such an endearing product. you see everyone who has contributed in any way to helping develop the sim in a great or small way feels that they are in a simbian existance with HTC working together for mutual advantage of a better flight sim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
seems like almost everyone here wants to see HTC not just succeed, but create the greatest flight sim there ever was. Although some of the ideas suggested are dumb they all mean well and almost always submitted with admiration because HTC actually listens to the really good ideas and implements them for all to enjoy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
I was wrong in my post. Pyro and HT don't have 400 posts each. Pyro has 950+ and HT has 600. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (Note that Superfly, Natedog, and Ronni also actively post to the board as well.)
Given the above figure, HT and Pyro alone average just over 4 posts per day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Hi Pyro...
I appreciate the response, since you must be tight for time getting ready to run off and lose your life savings in Vegas? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I hear clearly what you're saying, but, with all due respect, I guess we will continue to disagree on two points.
First, empowerment and intelligent use of a FREE source of willing labor for a small company should never be viewed as "unneeded bureaucracy". Working hard long hours trying to do everything by yourself is a marvelous quality and work ethic, but working smart and expanding one's influence over a bigger picture creates true dynamic and rapid growth. The former is usually a symptom that results in often unacceptably slow revenue growth, until someone figures out how to make 2+2=5, not 3. Bloom25 counted 950 posts for Pyro and 600 for Hitech, an incredible time commitment for which I compliment you both. In view of that data alone, starting to just consider a division of labor and efforts doesn't seem to me to be "creating a special class of players", but rather increasing productivity.
Second, with regards to betas, I would have the same comment about the effective use of FREE external resources to vet releases. Internal testing alone simply bogs down any product evolution eventually, as it gets larger over time with more features and functions. A reverse dragging effect on your original "Fast development is part of what we're selling" philosophy, actually starts to take root as people like yourself and Hitech waste needed real development and marketing time, doing something as mundane as play testing. Again, a symptom that will ultimately show up in the lethargic revenue numbers over time.
I simply don't get it, but I'm just a country boy viewing a competitive door of opportunity, possibly closing on someone's foot. The beauty of this discussion is that one of us is right and the other is wrong. The passage of time will ultimately demonstrate which of our diametrically opposed approaches to this type of Internet marketing and on-line development was correct. So, after you've made your first million and meet me at CON 2001 driving a BMW Z3 with a Vegas show girl on each arm, then I guess I'll have to eat crow and buy you dinner at the best place in town. I salute you for your conviction.
I haven't anything else constructive I can add to this thread, so I'll stop my participation at this point.
It has been an interesting and enlightening thread for me personally about many things, some of which effects matters not even related to HTC. I try to make a habit of learning something new every day and today was no exception. Thanks to everyone for their feedback. I hope someone archives this topic for posterity, so we can all dig it out down the road in about 8-12 months and have a good laugh re-reading its content.
Regards,
Badger
-
Badger,
I've deleted a serious rant aimed at you because I don't feel your posts merrit anything that harsh. It was silly to even type it out so I apologize for it.
I must say that I get the impression that you really like to read your own posts and pat yourself on the back. They are written with a skill that few (if any) in this forum could match. Unfortunately, after reading each one, I always shrug and think "what a load of bs".
You say alot without saying much. You comment on things as if you have an "intimate" knowledge when you do not. You speak as if you are the spokesperson for the customers when you are not. These things grate on me more and more with every post of this style.
I understand your concerns with any of these companies fitting into what you consider to be a proffitable buisness model. I understand the theory that wanting a company to be more successfull means it will be providing a quality product to its users for a longer period of time. These are things you seem to be well versed in judging by your posts here and on AGW.
I was around when Pyro and HT began avoiding the news groups (yep.. forums weren't quite the thing yet). I've heard you were too. They learned what happened when this crowd was fed information that was changed at a later date... or given a date that wasn't met... or sided with someone in an arguement. It would get ugly quick.
The HTC crew has acted in what I'd consider to be a perfect blend of professionalism and communal spirit. It is well in line with what they have stated to be their objective in developing this game. I'm not sure that their view of where the direction the company should take meshes with yours. Seems to be a "K.I.S.S." philosophy they are working with. I highly respect that.
As for your feelings towards any group of volunteers or anyone acting in any kind of "committee".... it smacks of elitism. It is one of the reasons I left another sim. Give everyone equal say. Listen to everyone. Filters don't only screen bad things.. they sometimes sceen good things.
So.. after what is a long-winded post(For me)... I must emphasize that this isn't a personal attack. I don't know you from the guy down the block. I just thought the time had come to finally post a follow up to one of them.
AKDejaVu
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
.. I must emphasize that this isn't a personal attack. I don't know you from the guy down the block. I just thought the time had come to finally post a follow up to one of them.
AKDejaVu
Thanks for the candor and feedback AKDejaVu.
I never took your post as any form of a personal attack.
I appreciate your honesty and I regret that you feel my contributions are "a load of bs". It is unfortunate we aren't sitting face to face and talking about this stuff, as I hope I would not come across as shallow, or make some feel as threatened. I'm not trying to change the world order, simply bring some 30+ years of successful business development experience to the table. To most, it is seen as an exercise in solving game problems, to me I see it as an exercise in solving business problems. Time will tell.
In hindsight, your right, I probably should go with the consensus flow on here and be less vocal. I've just never been that good with pep rallies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It is always a thin line between being viewed either as one who constructively tries to improve something, or being viewed as one who preaches heresy, especially without home field advantage. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As I said to Vermillion in another thread using the analogy of the alcoholic, I think I get too involved.
My apologies and I will cease proactive posting on any provocative subjects, but I still want a LIMITED ICON HA......hehehe..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<Salute>
Regards,
Badger
-
I don't think Pyro is being particularly secretive about things from what I've observed here. In fact, I would say that he provides 200-300% more data than he did back with ICI/IMOL.
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
-
First, empowerment and intelligent use of a FREE source of willing labor for a small company should never be viewed as "unneeded bureaucracy".
------------------------------------
I don't know about free. There is a price whether obvious or hidden. Using player resources to help is not foreign to us. We have a training staff, we'll have an events staff, and we'll have interested users building terrains with the editor. However, that doesn't mean it's worth always going that route. We have to look at whether it'll be worth it or not. The reason I call it an unneeded bureaucracy is because is because I think it inhibits rather than facilitates things. People enjoy knowing that they can voice their opinion and it means something and is heard directly to the top, not through some chain of filters to determine what is important and what isn't. It really doesn't matter whether it creates elitism or not, it creates a feeling of elitism among other players which is not a good thing. Everybody wants to feel like they're subscription is worth the same as the next guy's.
On using closed groups to beta test, again that is not something we're foreign to. We've done it before and fully understand the cost, value, and implications. As of now, it would cost us much more than we would gain. That's not to say that that can't change over time as things change.
We are unorthodox in our development process. We don't have meetings, we don't email memos to each other across the office, we don't draft up schedules. We do everything that would make a traditional manager cringe. The reason why we do that is simple, it's efficient for us. It wouldn't be efficient in many places, but here it works because we all know our jobs and what we need to do.
I'll not need to make a million at this to succeed, nor do I expect to. And success or failure will probably prove nothing. Very few things are black and white. Successful people don't do everything right and people who fail don't do everything wrong.
What I think much of this boils down to is that we don't want to do everything ourselves, in fact we want to offload a bunch of stuff and will do that in time. But right now, we're just in the start-up stage so we're very conscience of what is necessary vs what is luxury vs what is waste.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
-
The fact that there's only 6 people in the entire company to hear us means that we may not get a response immediately upon a post.
That fact also means, however, that when there is a response it's from someone who is integral to the development of the product, and you can rest assured they're an informed and accurate source of information. In fact it's safe to say that they all know not only what's going on, but to a certain extent can freely speak for each other.
Adding layers of communication to that setup exponentially adds barriers to true communication. Each lower level of communication (free especially) is further and further cutoff from any real information, and ends up placing nothing more than "I hear you, I understand your concerns" posts, which may or may not ever even make it to Pyro and HT. Outside of simple lack of information is the fact that someone who's working for free can have no less secure hold on their position, and would have to watch their words carefully lest they offend and need to be replaced.
I do not mind that Pyro if he's had enough on a subject can post saying "I'm tired of hearing this nonsense, that's enough." A CM working under someone in charge of running the CMs working under Pyro simply cannot do this.
In short, anything between Pyro, HiTech, Ronni, Natedog, Yankee, and Superfly and the message boards is a hinderence to what has made them successful to this point. Quick development based on a clear understanding of what the players want to see, balanced with their long term vision.
-
In a way our community is very involved in making AH succeed. Take a look at the help & training forum for example. Nearly every question you see there is from someone asking for help with an aspect of the game or ACM in general. There is a dedicated group of members in our community who do their best to try to answer those questions. In addition you often hear from the trainers, who in many ways are exactly what Badger means by a CM. AH trainers have been selected by HTC as those who have an above average knowledge of ACM and AH in general. Our trainers provide invaluable service in exchange for free play. (I should point out that a few refused to accept charity and STILL pay HTC to play. )
In the tech support and hardware forums other customers volunteer their time to help others solve problems they may be having. This saves Pyro and HT from many hours of work a week. (I personally have no qualms in giving some of my time so that others can share in the enjoyment of AH. One day when I was bored I even attempted to write a tech support FAQ file containing answers to the most common problems I see in those forums. The very next day HTC added it to their own FAQ file. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Special commendation must be given to Skuzzy. (CEO of Applink Networks, the company which provides HTC with its internet bandwidth.) Time and again he has taken time out of his busy day to solve connection problems people had been having. In many cases this involves communicating with massive internet companies like Sprint and @home. <S!!!> to you Skuzzy.
Nearly every squad in AH has a web page filled with page after page of AH information. Lephturn, our chief instructor, has an excellent site containing AH general information, plane tips, and even some films. Indian's site is also very nice, and contains a wealth of information about how to play AH.
What I'm getting at with all this is the fact that HTC does have many members of the community acting as voices for HTC. At this time I fail to see any special need for players acting as intermediaries between the community and HTC. There are already dozens of players who volunteer their time to help others enjoy AH. Perhaps as HTC grows in the future they will need some people acting to relieve them of some work, but IMO now is not the time. Also remember that many ideas that have been implemented in AH right now (see my list above for some examples) came directly from HTC reading and interacting directly with its community. I personally feel that directly interacting with the developers of AH gives me a feeling that this company truely cares about the concerns and opinions of every individual. I often see cases where HTC staff share jokes with us, giving a feeling of connection with the community. One other example that truely sticks out in my mind occured about a month ago. In the off-topic forum someone asked a question about RC planes. The very next reply was from HT himself offering to share any information he had with this person. Indeed HT ended up solving this person's problem. (This person happened to be fairly new, so I don't even know if he realized that he was talking to the CEO of HTC. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) I've chatted with HT personally a couple times during his online sessions. I learned what he used to do before coding games. Did you guys know that he used to be an Electrical Engineer? Myself and others familar with this trade even engaged in a little bit of engineering humor, like what side of the complex plane does HT exist on. (The right side I hope. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) All of this gives me a feeling of connection to this game and it's developers that I've never had with any other company. Putting people between us and HTC can only degrade this feeling of close interaction with HTC. Not only that, but I truely believe that HTC enjoys interacting with us. (Pyro himself once said something to the effect that he really enjoyed what he was doing now.) A side effect to all this is that HTC gets first-hand experience with the consumers wants and needs in the ever growing online sim market. Any fool can tell you that knowing what the consumer wants is a major advantage in any business. HTC "about us" link sums it all up well:
Quote: "HiTech Creations was founded with a simple philosophy by Dale "HiTech" Addink in 1999. It's not to create a large corporation, a vast gaming network, or a line of online games. It's just to create one game, but one that is better than any other like it. Contrary to most companies, our goal is to keep the company small. We know that with a singular focus and an experienced cohesive team that enjoys its work, the production, service, support, and overall level of satisfaction will be unmatched."
I'm sorry about the length of my post, but I felt that I needed to express my opinions. Thank you for reading this. (If you actually made it this far. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) I hope that many of you will agree with me.
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
-
Badger,
I respect your candor and honesty, but I have to say that I do not share your doubts. What happened in WB of ICI days was not only the work of Hitech/Pyro, but of quite a number of people, many who have gone on to other online projects. In fact, I suspect that Hitech & Pyro only had about 20% of the decision-power then, and were only 5% of the staff for the 'old' WB company. Any decisions or choices made then were the result of quite a few people, not only Doug or Dale.
What I see here in AH wrt staff participation is lightyears away from what happened back then, which to me says a lot, because now it's just Dale & Doug (and JoAnn and John and Nathan and Veronica - you guys are just as important to the whole development). And this is no slight at the others who staffed WB of old, but merely a suggestion that too many generals only bog down and stifle the process. I have never encountered this degree of contact with the staff of an online game. And not only that, I have never seen such willingness on the part of a staff to interact with the players.
Finally, one thing I've come to believe about anything in life is that there is no black and white, only shades of grey. What truly matters is the 'feel' of something, and if it feels good, then it's probably working, but if it feels wrong, you're probably right. And what feels right today may not feel right tomorrow. Rules and diagrams are only good enough to set you on your path, but once you've got your tools and you actually have an idea of the flow of things, then the only rules are that collection of knowledge in your brain, something which continually expands, modifies, deletes. Thus, HTC may not be going by the rules of contemporary business theory, but seem to be doing something right, because I really like how this whole thing is coming about. The honesty of their operation cannot help but show through. But that's MHO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-20-2000).]
-
Badger - I read your post end to end as usual knowing it would be interesting and provoking but I'm definitely on the other side of the fence to you on this one.
Today's business paradigm is driven by customers who define product R&D in real time, not as in previous decades, where companies owned the absolute power and could develop a product or service with a "build-it and they will come" marketing approach....
I'm sorry but I've worked for several companies large and small including one large US corporate and this bs is straight from the training manual (as is all the "proactive" "customer focused" "total quality" baloney that gets thrown around ).
What this leads to time after time is constantly changing half baked solutions in the name of reaching "100% customer satisfaction" (that's in the manual too).
Add onto the top of that this scenario..
, it would be the implementation of either a closed community of users to facilitate R&D feedback on both ideas and even perhaps real product testing, such as pre-release betas.
and you now have a commitee of influencial others to which Hitech have to address and respond - meetings and more meetings. Before long there'll be the need for a "Mission Statement" to "focus everyone on the real priorities" of "achieving 100% customer..." oh god it goes on and on.
Then we go on to the Marketing issues...
..it does nothing more than take what could be a great R&D and Public Relations environment for their customers and potential investors, turning it into a nightmare of corporate communications negatism. I don't want to see this AH BBS potentially "death spiral" into the same problem by having HTC not recognize when it's time for some solid facilitative marketing communications...
Pardon ??? - "facilitative marketing communications" you mean telling the customer what's going on. Well I have never seen a company as close to it's customers as HiTech and as 'up front', to coin a phrase, with it's customers. Badger you conclude that Hitech should spend their time coding and not e-mailing and posting to their customers, and that this customer interaction should be delegated. I disagree, direct communication with customers is a key element of the most important part of a small business - doing the job right first time or fixing it quick if you don't.
<Rant over>
Badger - please don't take this personally but I spent 7 years of my life working for a major international corporation attending endless training courses, meetings and seminars pushing everything you talk of and how it would change the business. That coporation has changed - from one producing quality respected equipment with world class support to one producing constantly changing flawed products poorly supported. And why did that change happen? - because all the time we were in meetings to re-engineer the business model and re-structure the business to become "customer driven" for the future we weren't actually talking to customers and delivering what they had already paid for.
The most reassuring thing I have read in this thread is this:-
We are unorthodox in our development process. We don't have meetings, we don't email memos to each other across the office, we don't draft up schedules. We do everything that would make a traditional manager cringe. The reason why we do that is simple, it's efficient for us. It wouldn't be efficient in many places, but here it works because we all know our jobs and what we need to do.
I'll not need to make a million at this to succeed, nor do I expect to. And success or failure will probably prove nothing. Very few things are black and white. Successful people don't do everything right and people who fail don't do everything wrong.
What I think much of this boils down to is that we don't want to do everything ourselves, in fact we want to offload a bunch of stuff and will do that in time. But right now, we're just in the start-up stage so we're very conscience of what is necessary vs what is luxury vs what is waste.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
What all this business and marketing model guff misses is that the success of any enterprise rests on the quality of it's people and I don't think on that basis we have reason to fault HiTech.
Respectfully
Sparks
-
I vote no on Badger communicating (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seriously, as I pointed out originally, the review was at 6:45 AM. The concerned posts started rolling in the various threads a little after noon. Hitech first posted about peoples concerns at 5:30 PM in this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003340.html) thread. So, the general timeline is, in fact, roughly four and a half hours between the time that anyone (Hitech, Pyro or a CM intermediary) could have noticed this as being a community-wide concern that needed to be addressed and when HTC started addressing those concerns. I will say it again, if people cannot wait a few hours for HTC to respond to topics raised on these boards before working themselves into a frenzy, then they are taking this game and themselves far too seriously and need to get a life.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the problem I personally have with your idea of a CM information intermediary is that I enjoy getting the word straight from the horses mouth as opposed to lip service from a mule. I've been involved in online communities for games that were set up much like you wish HTC would do. Information trickled out to the players compared to here. Company response started with a post from the intermediary stating that they were looking into the concerns. Then, it had to pass through multiple levels before it got to someone who actually had the knowledge and authority to address players concerns. At each stop, it was delayed somewhat or might even be lost in the shuffle. A few days later, after the information had time to climb up and back down the beureaucratic tree, you might get a response. Of course, if that response raised more questions, you had to wait another few days to get answers to them. It was a mess far worse than anything we've seen here.
Beyond not agreeing that a CM intermediary would enhance company-community communications, I also do not share your views that there has been a decrease in HTC's interaction with players, a slowdown in development due to their interacting with players, or a reluctance on HTC's part to adopt ideas brought forth by players (for whatever reason). In short, I disagree with just about every word you wrote, Badger (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The only thing I do agree you on is that time will tell all. But I seriously doubt anyone will remember or care about a word posted here when that time comes, except for the self-agrandizing egocentrist who -- entralled by the sound of their own voice -- must say "I toldja so" to feed their voracious ego.
Gordo
-
...And if this thread doesn't make em sit tall and puff their chests out(as well they should!), nothing will. I guess I'll have to call the silversmith and recind the order for the Stanley Cup replica with their names on it. <Salute>
I haven't had this much fun....since my honeymoon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
Liz of TSM
"Never take counsel of your fears."
T.J.(Stonewall) Jackson
-
In hindsight, your right, I probably should go with the consensus flow on here and be less vocal. I've just never been that good with pep rallies.
I don't believe my views are "consensus". Maybe on this subject they are close... but they are my views and not something I have adopted from someone else.
I don't see your posts as being "rebelious" or "cutting edge". I see them as silly. Start developing games, make the buisness work, then tell people how you did it. Unless this is done, every post similar to the one beginning this thread is pure speculation based on perception and come of sounding more arrogant than caring. That in and of itself makes it common.
Done with my arrogant and common contribution to this thread.
AKDejaVu
-
Hey, I like Badger's posts, even if I disagree with him on some of the details.
(In my opinion, there already is a de facto group of "the weightier sort" -- or better yet call it the pars sanior -- just look at whose posts here generate noise, and whose go by in relative silence. In any case, no need to formalize the process). And hell, I like historical analysis and philosophical conjecture as much as the next guy.
Speaking of which, previous experience should not be overlooked. The main discussion board for WB is not controlled by iEN, and this to their great detriment (and we can all cite many cases); the most recent staff has tried to create their own UBB to compete with AGW, but with disastrous results.
Control over the community -- best exercised discretely, of course -- is a part of the marketing puzzle that should not be overlooked. Let me put it this way. We all seem to think that in some way the community should be part of the design effort (I prefer enlightened design despots, but I´m weird I guess), and happy. Viewing it from the business perspective, what is most important in this respect is to make the community feel that it plays a role in the design of "their game". Look at iEN: they have a formalized process for community feeback, and a track record of releasing versions with changes based on what the majority of the users were screaming for. Yet the users feel disenfranchised, and I believe it's hurting their bottom line.
It´s also critical to exploit to the fullest the resources of the community.
But it should also be said that a game company that permits the extraludic nexus of the community to escape control does so at its peril. Regardless of what a company does, the players will meet and discuss, and they will find out about competitors, but with a company-run operation, the community is unquestionably one dedicated to the company´s product, and not some vaguer and contested notion or series of notions. Heck, if you look at AGW, you know what I´m talking about: the fights over the legitimacy of discussing competing products, long tirades on whether the use of "pirate servers" was illegal or merely immoral, tirades which, while certainly pointless and philosophical like this thread, also served to draw the clients´ attention to ways to subvert the business model of the company, criticisms, some justified, others not, of the company's editorial policy on the other board, previous employees advertising their new company's products (IIRC, HT and Pyro steered clear of that one). Hell,their postiest poster hardly ever plays WB, but has a signature mentioning his association as an AH trainer.