Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: oneway on September 20, 2011, 03:52:08 PM
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Doing the geek thing, I was working on a database modeling or reflecting the game and the question of Tracers came up (in my mind)...
According to this (from the web), it appears as if Tracers were more a liability than an asset:
It was a common practice on fighter planes to load every 5th round with a tracer round to aid in aiming. That was a mistake. The tracers had different ballistics so (at long range) if your tracers were hitting the target, 80% of your rounds were missing. Worse yet, the tracers instantly told your enemy he was under fire and from which direction. Worst of all was the practice of loading a string of tracers at the end of the belt to tell you that you were out of ammo. That was definitely not something you wanted to tell the enemy. Units that stopped using tracers saw their success rate nearly double and their loss rate go down.
Aside from the obvious question/response, do you use tracers or not?...Does the game model tracer ballistics differently than standard rounds?
I doubt it (too much complexity for no benefit in terms of game play)...
Now as a bomber pilot (who guns for himself 99% of the time)...I find tracers at times great to have, and other times a serious detriment.
They are beneficial on long deep bomber runs at altitude to send a clear message to an interceptor before he is in gun range...THAT I AM NOT ASLEEP...proceed with extreme caution...
On the other hand, sometimes I want them to think I am asleep before they figure out that "Ma Duece" cleaver is descending on their canopy
Tracers?
On or off?
Ballistics same or different?
Oh and one last thing/question...if a guy has his tracers off...do you still see his muzzle flash when firing..?
Out
Oneway
Oops...one more rather obscure question...if your game options have tracers turned off...and you join a bomber pilot who has tracers turned on...whose setting overrides for the gunner? In other words, would the rounds of the gunner-observer be tracerless, and the rounds of the pilot be tracered? (Did I mention I was a geek?)
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You can see muzzle flash on tracerless birds. I fly tracers off.
I have gunned in a bomber a couple of times. I did not see tracers but I do not know if the pilot had them on or off.
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I flew without tracers for a few months until I read a thread here which discussed how they give you feedback.
I had considered my gunnery adequate, but not that good with them off. I turned them on, and it was like night and day. My hit % jumped significantly. The only good thing about no tracers is that the guy doesn't wiggle if you're trying to hit him at D800 and he's not maneuvering. Other than that, I find them far more useful to leave on.
Wiley.
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While in a bomber I occasionally use the guns to make an interceptor think that I am a noob and try to entice them to come in at bad angles. To do this I usually while fire a short burst from a single gun while they are at too far out to even get a hit on. Just one more way that having tracers on can be a benefit.
To answer a few of your questions.
My understanding is that tracers have same ballistics as regular rounds.
I always have tracers on. Never was able to hit crap without them.
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Without Tracers for me. :aok I shoot well and for me the tracers get in my way, and the bad guys know when I getting close or not. I dont want him to know when I'm shooting.
:D
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Im curious..
Do tracers in-game actual do damage to the plane when they hit? or is it like the equivalent of throwing a lightbulb at a sheet of metal?
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fly with them off ( DEADLY ACCURATE AND USE LESS ROUNDS then with tracers on)
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Im curious..
Do tracers in-game actual do damage to the plane when they hit? or is it like the equivalent of throwing a lightbulb at a sheet of metal?
having tracers on or off doesnt affect the damage they do.
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having tracers on or off doesnt affect the damage they do.
Not what i asked, but ok.
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Not what i asked, but ok.
A tracer is still a bullet with mass and explosive power (if of the explosive variety).
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Not what i asked, but ok.
wow thats what i get for reading too fast with hot pizza in my mouth...:lol
but i dont believe its modeled into the game like that.
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Without Tracers for me. :aok I shoot well and for me the tracers get in my way, and the bad guys know when I getting close or not. I dont want him to know when I'm shooting.
:D
But your a pig Vudu
I mean not a Pig on the Wing...but a pig in general...killing everything in sight...no negotiation...kill em all and let god sort em out...
One man wrecking crew...I have seen it too many times in Spec Events
:aok
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What's the source of the quote, oneway?
I'm pretty sure the difference in trajectory is not modeled in the game, and even in real life, I find it hard to believe it was much of a factor in air-to-air combat. At convergence ranges of 2-300 yards we're talking about a difference of a few inches at most, which in this context is effectively no difference at all.
I don't know how long Murphy's Laws of Combat have been around, but the fact that "tracers work both ways" has certainly been realized for about as long as tracers have existed. IIRC Robert Leckie attributed his survival in his first major action on Guadalcanal to his team having removed all the tracers from their belts.
I always fly with mine on. Tried turning 'em off and it didn't accomplish much. If I'm saddled up on someone's six and he has no earthly idea I'm there, I can probably kill him before the tracers give him enough warning to react. If he knows I'm there, having tracers won't hurt anything.
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i haven't used tracers for a few years now. i find them to get in my way; i sometimes focus on the tracers rather than my target. for me, personally, turning tracers off payed dividends.
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Sry oneway but it seems you found the most quoted article when it comes to tracers.
However, the reality was not that simple. First of all the natural scatter of the guns takes care that the projectile ballistics start to differ significantly on longer ranges where the hit probability is already worse, so stating that tracers are to blame for such bad hit percentage is probably erroneous. What tracers may do however is that when the filling burns away it may do so unevenly and as the bullet decelerates it endures aerodynamic forces which with even slightest unbalance in bullet will make it tumble, more or less, and disturbs its original flight path.
Secondly it very much depends on range and that particular projectile's weight, muzzle velocity and intended convergence with sighting line and also how much weight it loses on the way to that point. So it depends on which gun and ammo we are talking about here. For .50Cal at certain ranges that may very well be the case.
Of course using a belting with only one type of rounds makes many of these scatter inducing elements to go away but I think there is a reason why the tracers are still used today and that is mainly the optical assistance to correct the aim AFTER you have pressed the trigger.
-C+
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I alternate. After a switch, I'll find myself landing many more hits. Eventually I'll start spraying or missing. Switching them back on/off at that point usually corrects me. Though I do prefer to have them off so that the enemy can't tell I'm firing as easily.
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But your a pig Vudu
I mean not a Pig on the Wing...but a pig in general...killing everything in sight...no negotiation...kill em all and let god sort em out...
One man wrecking crew...I have seen it too many times in Spec Events
:aok
lol well ty sir much better shot/sticks out there than me. but I do hate to let go of a tgt once I've latched a hold....... :t
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coming from behind a guy, tracers or not tracers he should be dead. if he isnt your aim is bad. it has nothing to do with tracers on or off.
anyway if you have your sounds set up right, not only can you hear the other plane's engine as he's closer to you, but you should also hear the guns shooting. but there's no reason why you should get killed from behind, unless you have bad sa. tracers or not tracers have nothing to do with you getting killed, it's the bad sa that got you.
as for tracers themselves, there's not way to say one way or the other is better. it's like flying a plane, some do good in ponies some do good in 109's. nothing wrong with either one. it's what you do with it, that matters.
it's silly to argue otherwise.
semp
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coming from behind a guy, tracers or not tracers he should be dead. if he isnt your aim is bad. it has nothing to do with tracers on or off.
I agree at reasonable gunnery ranges. At icon 800 trying to extend, I'd contend there's some value to him not seeing the tracers. Yes, if he's completely unoccupied he might hear the shots, but if he's preoccupied, he might not notice a noise where he'd definitely notice tracers going over his cockpit.
If you can hit without tracers, why not add that to your repertoire? Myself I choose to leave them on, but I saw that happen often when I had them off.
Wiley.
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I agree at reasonable gunnery ranges. At icon 800 trying to extend, I'd contend there's some value to him not seeing the tracers. Yes, if he's completely unoccupied he might hear the shots, but if he's preoccupied, he might not notice a noise where he'd definitely notice tracers going over his cockpit.
If you can hit without tracers, why not add that to your repertoire? Myself I choose to leave them on, but I saw that happen often when I had them off.
Wiley.
I have never flown without tracers. never been interested in flying without. and I look at them as the argument about planes. which one is better.
semp