Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CAP1 on September 25, 2011, 09:11:28 PM
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and decided to look up the rules for competitors. it was a fairly interesting read to say the least.
sometimes, i know i should leave things alone....but i can't. i'm a persistant bastage. back to the ford vs chevy thing.
i've finally found something on the camaros. they are not delivered race ready from chevy, as the fords are. the chevys are built into "GS" camaros outside of chevy. they weigh 3275 pounds, the mustangs 3300 pounds. they have the LS3 engines, which i believe are 6.2 liters, with no restrictions, the mustang only a 5.0 liter, and they must run a grand am supplied air intake restrictor. they both use tremec 6060 race prepped 6 speeds.
the camaro carries 20 gallons of fuel onboard, where as the mustang only carries 18 gallons(this is notable, as the mustangs always go farther between fuel stops than the camaros).
both cars can have engines built by an engine builder, but they have to be inspected, and sealed, with results given to grand am. the camaros are allowed to run a bosch ECU, whereas the mustangs have to run OEM computers. also notable, the chevys run a two stage dry sump oil system, whereas the mustangs run the factory type wet sump oil system.
of the 15 permitted replacement components allowed on the camaro, the only one supplied by gm, is the rear spoiler(of which there was a big deal made mid season, since that made them somewhat competitive). nearly everything else is riley technologies.
on the other hand, of the 12 permitted replacement parts allowed for the mustang, nearly all of them are ford motorsports, with a couple of things from steeda(hood being one of those).
of allowed modifications, there are 4 allowed on the camaro, including that bosch ecu, relocating the battery to the trunk, the dry sump oil system, and a brake caliper upgrade.
of the allowed modifications on the mustangs, there is exactly 1. that is the installation of a fuel cell behind the rear axle.
so, what we have, is a heavier car, with old technology(solid rear axle) using less fuel, and forced to run an intake restrictor to pretty much running up front. fairly impressive i'd say. i guess they had to buy their way into this series too.........
they out accelerate, out turn, out stop, out run, and in general, they outclass their gm counterpart.....and they do it as the race was intended, which is as a production car, not a production car sent to a race shop, and modified for the series as is the camaro.
i watched the final race of the season today, and it was a great race. the bmw's were kicking serious butt. while there was 1 camaro running up near the front(i think he finished 7 or 8th), there were a few mustangs in the hunt, including roush(lead nearly the entire second half) and the multimatic teams were keeping pressure on. there was a LOT of tight racing, and it was fun to watch.
had roush won this race, they'd have taken the drivers, team, and manufacturers championships, as it was, bily johnson(driving the roush car) made a mistake(according to the driver of the rumbum bmw, he thinks he missed a shift), allowing him to make the pass with only 3 minutes left in the race, allowing him to hold the lead long enough to win.
this race was a bmw vs ford thing.
i've been finding this type of racing much more enjoyable than the more mainstream races such as nascar, or nhra drag racing, because it keeps its cars based on those which we really can buy.
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What kind of BMW's were there CAP? I cant find any info on damn race never mind models.
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More then likely CAP the LS3 in the camaro is an off the shelf LS3 out of a corvette GS w/manual trans that comes stock with a dry sump setup. The need for an aftermarket PCM is unknown, since there's normally not a problem getting any 2000+ LS engine PCM to handle about anything up to around 1000 rwhp, earlier PCM's 99 and older were a bit troublesome with enough mods (unless it is something with the dry sump). One thing to keep in mind here is you have to remember the Camaro in it's current form isn't really an American designed car, just like the G8 wasn't. In fact a Camaro is nothing more then a 2 door G8. Therefore testing and aftermarket support is still way behind the mustangs chassis as far as racing goes. Chevrolet isn't concerend with the Camaro right now, they have the Corvette and CTS V as the two top performers right now and getting most of the R&D, camaro is just there to make money, and it is.
Waiting for the Mustang to come to ALMS to compete against factory backed corvettes (won't happen), we had to go to GT2 to have some competition, GTS was too easy.
:salute
BigRat
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What kind of BMW's were there CAP? I cant find any info on damn race never mind models.
the bmw teams run the m3. it's a friggin kick arse car. i think they run the 1 series in the street tuner class. i was looking for info to see if the beemer was like the ford, in as much as you can buy one ready to race from them.........haven't found anything yet. with bmw's racing history, i'd imagine you could.......
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More then likely CAP the LS3 in the camaro is an off the shelf LS3 out of a corvette GS w/manual trans that comes stock with a dry sump setup. The need for an aftermarket PCM is unknown, since there's normally not a problem getting any 2000+ LS engine PCM to handle about anything up to around 1000 rwhp, earlier PCM's 99 and older were a bit troublesome with enough mods (unless it is something with the dry sump). One thing to keep in mind here is you have to remember the Camaro in it's current form isn't really an American designed car, just like the G8 wasn't. In fact a Camaro is nothing more then a 2 door G8. Therefore testing and aftermarket support is still way behind the mustangs chassis as far as racing goes. Chevrolet isn't concerend with the Camaro right now, they have the Corvette and CTS V as the two top performers right now and getting most of the R&D, camaro is just there to make money, and it is.
Waiting for the Mustang to come to ALMS to compete against factory backed corvettes (won't happen), we had to go to GT2 to have some competition, GTS was too easy.
:salute
BigRat
mustangs have never been intended as competition for the vette......although it's close enough right now, that if ford did something silly like setting it up with independent rear suspension, it may well compete.
the camaro was originally made to try to compete with the mustang. it's done a good job of helping keep hot rod wars going though, and thanks to them, the mustang is constantly improved.
BTW....rumor has it that the 2014 or 2015 stang is supposed to have irs.
my whole thing, like i said....these races are fun to watch. to people like me(meaning ford nuts) it means that i can go to ford, purchase(for less than $90k) a race ready car that can be entered into this series. all i would have to add, would be a competent driver(as good as i like to think i am, i'd never dream of competing with the likes of matt hall, boris said, billy johnson, or any of those guys), spare parts, spare tires n wheels, and fuel....and i could go racing. kinda like nascar used to be waaayayyyy back when......wait for it...............fords, mercurys, hudsons, and i think studabakers used to rule the tracks. :aok
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They're trying to do a "spec" series across different brands.
That doesn't work.
Also......the camaro's aero is no good.
We took a 700hp camaro and a 500hp new hemi challenger to NASA a few weeks ago and the challenger was as fast as the camaro.
If you look at them side by side, it's easy to see the challenger has a more favorable aero package that keeps extending it's advantage as speeds get faster.
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They're trying to do a "spec" series across different brands.
That doesn't work.
Also......the camaro's aero is no good.
We took a 700hp camaro and a 500hp new hemi challenger to NASA a few weeks ago and the challenger was as fast as the camaro.
If you look at them side by side, it's easy to see the challenger has a more favorable aero package that keeps extending it's advantage as speeds get faster.
major difference between what you're talking about, and this series. grand am allowed them a different rear spoiler, because they were claiming they couldn't be competitive without it......that's when they started running up near the front more......but remember, they're still going against restricted cars here.......closer to "as bought" than the others.......
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We have a grand-am car at the shop.
The sanctioning body has made this into a "spec" series across different brands.
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Many Camaros are Bosch from the factory.
All 5th gen camaros have the battery in the trunk.
Factory brakes on the SS and RS are Brembos.
GM has taken many of the top folks away from corvette and moved them to the camaro.
The ZL1 will be here soon.
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Many Camaros are Bosch from the factory.
All 5th gen camaros have the battery in the trunk.
Factory brakes on the SS and RS are Brembos.
GM has taken many of the top folks away from corvette and moved them to the camaro.
The ZL1 will be here soon.
hey.....question on the zl1......i thought someone said in another thread, that chevys only gonna build 69 of them? please say that isn't true!
hhmm.....i wonder why the rules state that it can be relocated to the right rear of the trunk? unless it's mounted on the drivers side, and there's some weight or safety advantage to putting it there?
if they have brembos, why change to alcon calipers? the stangs seem to run the brembos as delivered from ford.
i hadn't realized that about the bosch computers....i'd have thought that gm would run their own computers, as they had in the past?
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I think ZL1's have already been out, kinda under the radar (kinda like Lingenfelter corvettes). Basically ran the late model CTS-V's engine with the 2300 head unit. It was a pretty car with white exterior and black interior and black accents, would have gone well with my 69 in the garage, was a 2011 model. This was possibly a total aftermarket package kinda like lingenfelter does where you buy the car and the factory ships it to them for the modifications, and then bring it back to the dealership for delivery. Is this the ZL1 GM has been rumoring, unknown. It is the engine combination that was rumored for quite a while though. Talked to the guy a little bit about it, said very limited production. For CAP, the guy also had a matching GT500 I think it was called a "super snake", same matching color combination, except I think on the mustang the striping was in flat black rather then gloss. I need one of those 2300 units on top of my LS-1, I'm outgrowing my 112 :bhead
:salute
BigRat
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http://www.0-60mag.com/news/2011/09/cars-69th-2012-chevy-camaro-zl1-sells-for-250k/
69th 2012 Chevy Camaro ZL1 Sells For $250K
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Most 5th gen camaros have no spare. The battery is in a compartment there.
The ZL1 is limited but not that limited. I think it stems from confusion as the first ZL1s in 1969, only 69 were made.
The first 5th gen ZL1 sold to the public will actually be the 69th built at Oshawa. It went on the auction block today and sold for $250,000.00.
It won't be delivered till next spring.
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I think ZL1's have already been out, kinda under the radar (kinda like Lingenfelter corvettes). Basically ran the late model CTS-V's engine with the 2300 head unit. It was a pretty car with white exterior and black interior and black accents, would have gone well with my 69 in the garage, was a 2011 model. This was possibly a total aftermarket package kinda like lingenfelter does where you buy the car and the factory ships it to them for the modifications, and then bring it back to the dealership for delivery. Is this the ZL1 GM has been rumoring, unknown. It is the engine combination that was rumored for quite a while though. Talked to the guy a little bit about it, said very limited production. For CAP, the guy also had a matching GT500 I think it was called a "super snake", same matching color combination, except I think on the mustang the striping was in flat black rather then gloss. I need one of those 2300 units on top of my LS-1, I'm outgrowing my 112 :bhead
:salute
BigRat
yea...the super snakes are kinda pricey, but there's 2 options......725(i think) hp with full warrantys, and 800 hp, but no warrantys.
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Most 5th gen camaros have no spare. The battery is in a compartment there.
The ZL1 is limited but not that limited. I think it stems from confusion as the first ZL1s in 1969, only 69 were made.
The first 5th gen ZL1 sold to the public will actually be the 69th built at Oshawa. It went on the auction block today and sold for $250,000.00.
It won't be delivered till next spring.
for 250k, they're gonna be pretty limited. i don't know if i'd be willing to pay that for either of them...the mustang or camaro to be honest....that is assuming i could afford that.... :rofl
most stangs still have the spare, although if you option the brembo brakes onto the gt, you lose the spare. the battery is still in the engine bay.
when mine comes in, i'll be calling a junk yard, and getting a wheel, and crappy tire, to toss in the spare well.
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That was the auction price CAP. Will sell for ~$50K.
Racing team and automotive dealership owner Rick Hendrick placed the winning bid, forking over a cool quarter-million dollars to own ZL1 No. 69, which will be the only 2012 ZL1 painted Carbon Flash Metallic from the factory. While he paid about $200,000 more than the expected MSRP for a Camaro ZL1 for his car
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Most 5th gen camaros have no spare. The battery is in a compartment there.
The ZL1 is limited but not that limited. I think it stems from confusion as the first ZL1s in 1969, only 69 were made.
The first 5th gen ZL1 sold to the public will actually be the 69th built at Oshawa. It went on the auction block today and sold for $250,000.00.
It won't be delivered till next spring.
Must of been an aftermarket package like I suspected, but power output should be similiar to the one I saw, unless they throw in an LS-9 :t
:salute
BigRat
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Must of been an aftermarket package like I suspected, but power output should be similiar to the one I saw, unless they throw in an LS-9 :t
:salute
BigRat
wonder if it was a "1 off" or something like shelbys?"
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for 250k, they're gonna be pretty limited. i don't know if i'd be willing to pay that for either of them...the mustang or camaro to be honest....that is assuming i could afford that.... :rofl
most stangs still have the spare, although if you option the brembo brakes onto the gt, you lose the spare. the battery is still in the engine bay.
when mine comes in, i'll be calling a junk yard, and getting a wheel, and crappy tire, to toss in the spare well.
That price was at auction for the first "in the wild". Normal price will be about 50k. It will have full race suspension and 580 hp from the factory..... with warrantee.
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(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6012/5979112626_4b94f4a05d_b.jpg)
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That price was at auction for the first "in the wild". Normal price will be about 50k. It will have full race suspension and 580 hp from the factory..... with warrantee.
so it's gonna be more expensive than the gt500, slightly more powerful, and still slower? oh yea...and not as good looking either...... :noid
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(http://www.alpinevillaretreat.com/Images/Tricycle_Race.jpg)
Cap jumps out to a quick lead followed closely by icepac and shuffler :)
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(http://www.alpinevillaretreat.com/Images/Tricycle_Race.jpg)
Cap jumps out to a quick lead followed closely by icepac and shuffler :)
:rofl :rofl
now THAT;s funny.
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hehehe
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(http://www.alpinevillaretreat.com/Images/Tricycle_Race.jpg)
Cap jumps out to a quick lead followed closely by icepac and shuffler :)
exactly why are they wearing helmets :headscratch:, most be part of the sanctioning bodies rules :lol
:salute
BigRat
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exactly why are they wearing helmets :headscratch:, most be part of the sanctioning bodies rules :lol
:salute
BigRat
we wear our helmuts proudly 'cause if we fell off at such a high speed, we might get hurted. :noid :bolt:
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we wear our helmuts proudly 'cause if we fell off at such a high speed, we might get hurted. :noid :bolt:
I think he never saw Laugh-in. :rofl
Grave danger in high speed tricycling.
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Why is CAP on a pink bike?
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I would think the answer would be obvious. He was sponsored by Victorias Secret.
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I would think the answer would be obvious. He was sponsored by Victorias Secret.
I, on the other hand, was sponsored by Johnson & Johnson. I had to pull a few strings to get the Driver's spot.
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:rofl