Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: oakranger on September 26, 2011, 11:27:09 AM
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Saw this video clip a 14th FG. From :25 sec to :39 sec, you will see markings on the plane that suggest a desert camo. Did any P-38 have a skin in desert or some mottle skin?
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675069415_Royal-Air-Force-33-Squadron_British-bomber-aircraft_in-flight_drop-bombs (http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675069415_Royal-Air-Force-33-Squadron_British-bomber-aircraft_in-flight_drop-bombs)
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It would be new to me. I've not gotten to studying the 14th FG planes yet though.
Does look an awful lot like camo.
(http://www.criticalpast.com/app_old/cpdata2/65675069415/big/65675069415_000928_3.jpg)
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No images of it in the 14th FG history. I have seen images of MTO A20s that had similar splotchy camo. Could be it was a one-off. I don't think it was anything done group wide.
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No images of it in the 14th FG history. I have seen images of MTO A20s that had similar splotchy camo. Could be it was a one-off. I don't think it was anything done group wide.
That is what I am thinking.
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Nice find will dig about on that one. :aok
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I'm wondering if it was an export airframe that was retained by the AAF.
If anyone has a copy of Bodie's P-38 book take a look at the picture on page 101, it's a group of 38's being assembled in the UK. In the same photo you see the stars and bars with what looks like the yellow surround that was used in North Africa next to another 38 with a similar mottled paint pattern.
I don't have the scanner set up at the moment or I'd just post the pic.
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I'm wondering if it was an export airframe that was retained by the AAF.
If anyone has a copy of Bodie's P-38 book take a look at the picture on page 101, it's a group of 38's being assembled in the UK. In the same photo you see the stars and bars with what looks like the yellow surround that was used in North Africa next to another 38 with a similar mottled paint pattern.
I don't have the scanner set up at the moment or I'd just post the pic.
Export birds were no supercharger, no guns. They were kept stateside for training. The 38s going to North Africa shuttled from England to the Med. Technically 1st, 14th and 82nd were originally 8th AF Fighter Groups
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Ya got me, all I know is there's a picture of a 38 on page 101 with a similar camo pattern to what's in the video. :)
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Ya got me, all I know is there's a picture of a 38 on page 101 with a similar camo pattern to what's in the video. :)
Intresting to find out about it.
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Ya got me, all I know is there's a picture of a 38 on page 101 with a similar camo pattern to what's in the video. :)
I stand corrected. Your eyes are better then mine :)
Caption says these are birds being assembled in England at Speke. These would have been on the move to North Africa so that camo bird would most likely have been one of them, unless it's a recce 38. Can't tell if it's a gunned version or not and the image doesn't scan and blow up very well.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/camo38.jpg)
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the mottled bird had guns, you can see them clearly in still shot 32. still shot 34 shows a 4 on the right rudder. very cool find.
that 77 on the right fuselage, that a squadron number?
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the mottled bird had guns, you can see them clearly in still shot 32. still shot 34 shows a 4 on the right rudder. very cool find.
that 77 on the right fuselage, that a squadron number?
I meant the one in the photo Soulyss is referring to. I posted it from the book he found it in
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the mottled bird had guns, you can see them clearly in still shot 32. still shot 34 shows a 4 on the right rudder. very cool find.
that 77 on the right fuselage, that a squadron number?
Yea, I spotted that too. This is a mystery, where the hell is Krusty or Ack-Ack? One of them usually have something about something.
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Did a little more digging through Bodie's book and I think the best bet still revolves around the P-38's that were intended for RAF trials. I haven't read the whole section yet but if I get the gist there were actually two different models that were originally meant to go to RAF service. There were not originally contracted through the lend-lease program and the RAF effectively cancelled the order apparently causing some bad blood between Lockheed and the British government (I believe Lockheed nearly sued them in court).
Apparently only part of the order were retained in the export version that we hear about, no counter rotating props, and no superchargers (used the V-171C engines).
It get's a little muddled in that it seems a lot of this was going on right around and after the attack on Pearl Harbor so everything was a bit of a mess but I found the following bit.
Concurrently, there were 121 Model 322-62-18 (P-322-II) trainers that had been reworked at Burbank as part and parcel of the AAF contract that covered conversion of Lightning IIs into regular service type P-38F's and P-38G's.
All P-322-II aircraft were provided with V-1710F-2 engines (unsupercharged). Most pilot and mechanics associated with the P-38F-15 ir O038G-15 airplanes probably never knew tha they had been laid out as British fighters, and it appears that most of them were ultimately sent to combat zones.
That in of itself raises yet more questions (mostly about the super charging), but I really wonder if that airframe didn't begin as part of the RAF order, was painted then finished life in the AAF.
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Did a little more digging through Bodie's book and I think the best bet still revolves around the P-38's that were intended for RAF trials. I haven't read the whole section yet but if I get the gist there were actually two different models that were originally meant to go to RAF service. There were not originally contracted through the lend-lease program and the RAF effectively cancelled the order apparently causing some bad blood between Lockheed and the British government (I believe Lockheed nearly sued them in court).
Apparently only part of the order were retained in the export version that we hear about, no counter rotating props, and no superchargers (used the V-171C engines).
It get's a little muddled in that it seems a lot of this was going on right around and after the attack on Pearl Harbor so everything was a bit of a mess but I found the following bit.
That in of itself raises yet more questions (mostly about the super charging), but I really wonder if that airframe didn't begin as part of the RAF order, was painted then finished life in the AAF.
This might be one of these things that we may never know.
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This might be one of these things that we may never know.
Certainly possible, of course Guppy/Corkyjr may have been right from the get go with his guess about some random pilot talking his crew into painting up his plane. :)
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Certainly possible, of course Guppy/Corkyjr may have been right from the get go with his guess about some random pilot talking his crew into painting up his plane. :)
It certainly not standard AAF or RAF mottled skin where it is common on Luft 109s, 88 and 87 Africa group long with many Italies planes.
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The first thing that came to mind were these A20s flying in Tunisia. Clearly done in theater. You'd almost have to bet that they may have started on a 38 or two to test out the camo as well.
(http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/A-20B_Tunisia.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/a20havoc-1.jpg)
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The first thing that came to mind were these A20s flying in Tunisia. Clearly done in theater. You'd almost have to bet that they may have started on a 38 or two to test out the camo as well.
(http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/A-20B_Tunisia.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/a20havoc-1.jpg)
Thanks for posting that. That is a great shot from that angle.
There is a B-25 that goes by the nicknamed "Patches." This bird had over 300 mission, five belly landings and over 400 patched holes from flak. The crew painted over the hole patch with zinc-chromate that you could clearly see. It would look like it is a camo skin. Been trying to find pix of that B-25.
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Did a little digging and "Patches" served in the MTO with the 321st Bomb Group, 446th Bomb Squadron. The 57th Bomb Wing (which the 321st was part of) keeps an actually really nice website going with a fairly extensive gallery and mission log.
http://57thbombwing.com/index2.php (http://57thbombwing.com/index2.php)
I did a little digging through the galleries and found a couple pictures.
(http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/Soulyss/321st/patchesOthermen.jpg)
(http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/Soulyss/321st/1446thPatches42-64526C-20.jpg)
Going to poke around a little more, my uncle served with the 321st and that website was really useful in tracking down some photo's and mission logs.
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Did a little digging and "Patches" served in the MTO with the 321st Bomb Group, 446th Bomb Squadron. The 57th Bomb Wing (which the 321st was part of) keeps an actually really nice website going with a fairly extensive gallery and mission log.
http://57thbombwing.com/index2.php (http://57thbombwing.com/index2.php)
I did a little digging through the galleries and found a couple pictures.
(http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/Soulyss/321st/patchesOthermen.jpg)
(http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/Soulyss/321st/1446thPatches42-64526C-20.jpg)
Going to poke around a little more, my uncle served with the 321st and that website was really useful in tracking down some photo's and mission logs.
Great find. I been at the web site about a year ago. They must have posted the pic since then.
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The first thing that came to mind were these A20s flying in Tunisia. Clearly done in theater. You'd almost have to bet that they may have started on a 38 or two to test out the camo as well.
(http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/A-20B_Tunisia.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/a20havoc-1.jpg)
Most likely painted very much Like the Brazilian A-20's.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/damopabe/2832129118/in/pool-a20/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tailspin_tommy/523949447/
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Most likely painted very much Like the Brazilian A-20's.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/damopabe/2832129118/in/pool-a20/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tailspin_tommy/523949447/
The USAAF A20s are 1942-3 time frame so prior to the Brazilian birds. We had a thread about those desert A20s on the skinners forum a long time ago. I think Greebo was going to try and do one if I remember right.
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Dan,
I witnessed first hand some mottled paint work on some early birds in the SEA theater. They are going to appear in the future. ;)
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Dan,
I witnessed first hand some mottled paint work on some early birds in the SEA theater. They are going to appear in the future. ;)
Bastage! :)
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I stand corrected. Your eyes are better then mine :)
Caption says these are birds being assembled in England at Speke. These would have been on the move to North Africa so that camo bird would most likely have been one of them, unless it's a recce 38. Can't tell if it's a gunned version or not and the image doesn't scan and blow up very well.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/camo38.jpg)
Looks like a retrofit/maintenance more than an assembley operation going on in that photo.... the more I stare at it and pick it apart, the more I'm certain of it.
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No images of it in the 14th FG history. I have seen images of MTO A20s that had similar splotchy camo. Could be it was a one-off. I don't think it was anything done group wide.
Apologies for resurrecting an old thread it is the place where this post belongs though.
Just stumbled across this picture.
Looks like they may have had several aircraft painted like this.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P38%20Lightning/79-05b6171ec4a_zpsd7ca94d0.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P38%20Lightning/79-05b6171ec4a_zpsd7ca94d0.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P38%20Lightning/65675069415_000870_3_zps913c5e41.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P38%20Lightning/65675069415_000870_3_zps913c5e41.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P38%20Lightning/65675069415_000667_3_zps9a7b574a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P38%20Lightning/65675069415_000667_3_zps9a7b574a.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/P38%20Lightning/65675069415_000696_3_zps0086bfad.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/P38%20Lightning/65675069415_000696_3_zps0086bfad.jpg.html)
This guy seems to know what squadrons as well.
http://forum.armyairforces.com/14th-FG-P38-in-curious-desert-camouflage-m207590.aspx
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Anyone recognize this Lightning? I know what it is, and what became of it. So, it's a quiz for our P-38 gurus.....
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1526812_600569509998418_1692931138_n.jpg)
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Not the 'droop-snoot.' Too much plexi.
(http://webzoom.freewebs.com/444thbg/Guido-DroopSnoutP-38.jpg)
http://www.444thbg.org/ranslebenguido.htm
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Anyone recognize this Lightning? I know what it is, and what became of it. So, it's a quiz for our P-38 gurus.....
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1526812_600569509998418_1692931138_n.jpg)
Before she was stripped to bare metal :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Beaufighters/F5_zpse65d371b.jpg)
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Before she was stripped to bare metal :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Beaufighters/F5_zpse65d371b.jpg)
Yes, Guppy, the XF-5D. Converted from an F-5A-10-LO, it was later stripped of paint and more plexiglass added. It eventually was written off in a crash...
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=109028 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=109028)
Another view...
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u224/taylg/xf-5d.jpg)
Edit: Note the captured Ju 88 in the background. This was at Wright-Patterson Field, circa 1943.
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In the link I posted earlier I got a few replies of interest.
"This may be one of the P-38s painted in the short-lived NWAAF scheme for this type ( the others were A-20, P-40, B-17, B-24 and B-25). The patterns came from HQ NWAAF Engineer's Section on 10 March 1943 and were Army rather than AAF colours. Colours were Field Drab 303, Olive Drab 319, Earth Yellow 305, Earth Brown 302, Earth Red 312, Sand 306 , undersides Light Blue; P-38s were to use Field Drab over the existing Olive Drab 41 ( "General Scheme"). 303 was a darkish brown shade which would contrast well with faded OD41.
The Spec. was Corps of Engineers T-1213 dated Dec. 15 1941, this order entitled " Instructions for aircraft camouflage NW African Theatre". The actual patterns could be amended if necessary. The aim was better concealment from the air following the German successes at Kasserine in Feb.
The 37FS moved to Algeria from the US on 27 Feb. 1943 under NWAAF; the 14FG stood down from Jan.-May for re-equipping etc ( some planes went to the 82FG). It's possible some P-38s were re-painted towards the end of this period but photos are rare , the scheme could be mistaken for normal desert weathering which led to various patchy finishes.
From May the group was bombing with 1,000 lbs.( Axis surrender in the area was 13 May).
I posted some stuff on these schemes in another thread somewhere.
Nick"
"How nice to get some additional, and very useful, information on this paint scheme after over two years. Plane number 86 was the A/C of the eventual ace Maj. William L. Leverette of the 37th FS. Maj. Leverette was credited with seven victories plus two damaged (Ju88s) on 9 Oct, 1943. He went on to the rank of Lt Col with 11 confirmed kills. Maj. Leverette is the third from the right in this photo.
My guess is that the plane in the video I mentioned in my original posting, and that had an indistinct number (02 or 82) was most likely 82, a 37th FS number. That would be 2nd Lt. Harry T. Hannah's A/C. He shot down five Ju87s plus 1 probable in the same battle on the 9th. Lt. Hannah may well be in the photo above - I just can't identify him. It was a memorable day - four other pilots claimed victories that day; 2nd Lt. Wayne Blue - 1 Ju88, 2nd Lt. Donald Clark - 1 , Lt. Homer Sprinkle - 3 victories plus 1 probable, 2nd Lt. Robert Margison - 1 Ju87, 2nd Lt. Donald Clark - 1 victory. Not bad for 15 minutes work for seven guys. There were seven men from the 37th in that engagement and there are seven men in the photo. I only can clearly identify Maj. Leverette. Anyone recognize the others?
Ref: The 14th Fighter Group in World War II. John W. Lambert. ISBN: 978-0-7643-2921-0
Paul"
http://forum.armyairforces.com/14th-FG-P38-in-curious-desert-camouflage-m207590.aspx