Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Sikboy on September 27, 2011, 03:16:14 PM
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I’ve been poking around, trying to find justification for my position that the D4Y is the most important gap in the Scenario planeset. As it stands, the IJN doesn’t possess a mid or late war carrier strike aircraft. Most of the Operational Histories I can find on the internet seem to have a giant gap in operations. There is almost always a mention of 2 Recon versions flying in the battle of Midway, and then nothing until the Battle of the Philippine Sea two years later. What happened to the D4Y’s in between the two battles? I’ve found a reference to the 501st Kokutai being stationed in Rabaul and operating D4Ys in October of 1943.
Does anyone (and I’m thinking Mitsu here :) ) have any information on D4Y deployment from 1942 to 1944?
-Sik
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+1
The D4Y2 and B6N2a would be nice and fits Japanese Navy Plane set. :)
Everyone doesn't use them so much though. :D
I'm boring of attacking the ships in the Val and Kate at the LWA. :D
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Mitsu,
Do you have any information on the deployment of the D4Y in 1943?
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+1 AFTER we get the pby catalina.
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+1 AFTER we get the pby catalina.
While it would be nice to have a PBY Catalina, that plane would be a hanger queen in every arena and only taken out by players during scenarios. With the absence of night, the Catalina would be a sitting duck for any fighter and it wouldn't act like a primitive JSTAR aircraft like some would think it would.
Yes, it had a primitive air to surface radar system with a limited range of only 20 miles. That doesn't mean that it would detect everything within a 20 mile radius, that would be a rarity in real life. The truth was that in the day time the PBY crews relied on using the Mark I Eyeball with Binocular extensions as that proved to be more reliable and effective in searching for surface ships. The PBY made far more effective use of the ASR to search for night targets, both on water and on land and also for navigation.
It would be far more effective in Aces High to use a bomber for what you guys want to use the PBY for, its not only more effective but a lot smarter as well. Once you spot the fleet, you can then attack the ships with your three bombers that carried far more bombs and was more accurate in level bombing. PBYs were far more accurate and effective while masthead bombing at night, in the day time if one tried to use a masthead bombing attack run it would have been blown out of the sky before it even got within range. The same would happen in game.
It's a sad fact that there are just some planes that do not have a current role in AH, the PBY being one of them. Maybe once we get a true night modeled then it could be an effective night time raider.
ack-ack
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In comparison, the D4Y was the fastest dive bomber of WWII. While its load was not impressive, it probably stands a better chance of reaching the target that any other CV strike aircraft.
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To continue the Catalina conversation:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,320943.0.html
With regard to the D4Y, Karnak is right about the speed. It becomes even more glaring when you consider that for Special Events, the speed differential is a comparison of the D4Y versus the D3A. Now we're talking about a difference of what? Nearly 100 MPH, depending on the veraint of the Judy. That's just insane. When it comes to the IJN having the ability to put ordinance on target, the D4Y is simply light years ahead of the D3A.
The only downside that I’m finding to Judy inclusion, is that it doesn’t appear to have operated off of Carriers until The Battle of the Philippine Sea. Finding a vague reference to land base usage in Rabaul is pretty cool though, as it would appear to have fought in the battles for Bouganville onward to the “withering on the vine” of Rabaul. Experienced pilots using this platform in AH could make a credible showing of themselves in late war scenarios.
-Sik
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i believe at least a few d4y1-cs were present during midway, recon aircraft not the revised d4y2/3 dive bombers, although sources disagree about the service dates. all references agree it wasn't that successful in performing to its purpose.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/japan/aircraft/dive-bomber/yokosuka-d4y-suisei-judy.asp (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/japan/aircraft/dive-bomber/yokosuka-d4y-suisei-judy.asp)
would be interesting to have the judy even if it was just 2 variants.
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I'd atleast like to see our current dive bombers get there upgrade before any new ones were added IMO.
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While it would be nice to have a PBY Catalina, that plane would be a hanger queen in every arena and only taken out by players during scenarios. With the absence of night, the Catalina would be a sitting duck for any fighter and it wouldn't act like a primitive JSTAR aircraft like some would think it would.
Yes, it had a primitive air to surface radar system with a limited range of only 20 miles. That doesn't mean that it would detect everything within a 20 mile radius, that would be a rarity in real life. The truth was that in the day time the PBY crews relied on using the Mark I Eyeball with Binocular extensions as that proved to be more reliable and effective in searching for surface ships. The PBY made far more effective use of the ASR to search for night targets, both on water and on land and also for navigation.
It would be far more effective in Aces High to use a bomber for what you guys want to use the PBY for, its not only more effective but a lot smarter as well. Once you spot the fleet, you can then attack the ships with your three bombers that carried far more bombs and was more accurate in level bombing. PBYs were far more accurate and effective while masthead bombing at night, in the day time if one tried to use a masthead bombing attack run it would have been blown out of the sky before it even got within range. The same would happen in game.
It's a sad fact that there are just some planes that do not have a current role in AH, the PBY being one of them. Maybe once we get a true night modeled then it could be an effective night time raider.
ack-ack
Could it possably have a role as a Taskgroup hunter? Everyone hates how people hide cvs, If the Catalina's radar was capable of picking up ships, it could find a role in AH by simply tracking down hiding cvs.
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Could it possably have a role as a Taskgroup hunter? Everyone hates how people hide cvs, If the Catalina's radar was capable of picking up ships, it could find a role in AH by simply tracking down hiding cvs.
As noted, in daylight conditions the Mk I eyeball is superior to the radar on the PBY (or any other WWII aircraft) for performing searches. Further, with a top speed of ~185mph it isn't going to cover ground very fast when you could simply up a much faster, long range airplane. Even a P-51 would be markedly superior for CV searches in AH.
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all references agree it wasn't that successful in performing to its purpose.
It could well be that in reality the plane was not successful, but I would suggest that this had more to do with things that re not reflected in Aces High, than the actual performance/abilities of the plane. We don’t model the bad maintenance issues that increased with the Japanese military as the war went on, and we never run out of qualified pilots. We also try to ensure sceario balancing to keep thing from getting out of hand, which was never a major focus of either side in real life :)
That’s why I’m so interested in the Solomon Islands campaign and the D4Y. The plane arrived too late to take part in the 1942 Carrier duels, when there was near parity between forces, and the Later Carrier battles were such a lopsided affair, that it’s hard to evaluate the actual aircraft capabilities.
The Solmons on the other hand, seem like as good a study as possible, but I can’t find much information with my cursory searches. 10 years ago, I would have been scouring the LOC to find information and spending countless hours trying to figure it out. Now I’m old and lazy, so I’m just asking around on the AH board!
-Sik
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I’ve been poking around, trying to find justification for my position that the D4Y is the most important gap in the Scenario planeset. As it stands, the IJN doesn’t possess a mid or late war carrier strike aircraft. Most of the Operational Histories I can find on the internet seem to have a giant gap in operations.
Couple of things. First off I would not worry as to ether its the most important gap in the scenario planeset. Its a gap, and as such deserves merit for inclusion. Folks will always argue as to whats the most important.
You make the best point when you say "IJN doesn't possess a mid or late war carrier strike aircraft". Thats enough of a justification right there imho.
As for operational histories they are dependant on two things. Was the aircraft operationaly deployed in a certain time frame and secondly, and more to the point, when did it see an opportunity for combat use? In the case of the D4Y it would seem that its first use in quantity in an attack role came in June 1944 as the USN began operations off of the Phillipines. From there it was used untill wars end either as a Kamikaze or a conventional attack a/c.
It does not appear that it was deployed to the Solomons or New Guinea in 1943/44 so it missed the SW PAC campaign (other than perhaps in a recon role). There is no info that places them in the CBI either (not surprising as it was not an IJAAF a/c).
As was the case of the FM-2 it was in service for a time prior to being able to fly into combat.
Any SEA setup from 06/1944 to 08/1945 would see its use; Marianas, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa, Japanese Home Islands. Thats quite a bit.
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Hey Squire, been a while <S>
I found a vague reference to a squadron of D4Ys being deployed to Rabaul (the 501st Kokutai) in October of 1943, which could have put it in combat towards the end of the Solomons campaign. Granted www.pacificwrecks.com isn't exactly an authoritative source, but still, it whet my appetite and convinced me to make my first serious AH post in 7 years.
When we were running the CAP event years ago, it just pained me to ask people to fly Vals into a swarm of F4Us in defense of the Philippines. I don’t know who’s left on the CM staff these days, but say “Hi” for me.
-Sik
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As noted, in daylight conditions the Mk I eyeball is superior to the radar on the PBY (or any other WWII aircraft) for performing searches. Further, with a top speed of ~185mph it isn't going to cover ground very fast when you could simply up a much faster, long range airplane. Even a P-51 would be markedly superior for CV searches in AH.
If Karnak had a wishlist though, he would have only like 20 planes, I read you like a book bud. :aok
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Good to cya too Sik. :salute
I could certainly beleive there was a squadron in late 1943 on Rabaul, as to what action they saw dunno. I hear ya re the late war PAC SEA setups and the IJ rides been there too.
Ltr.
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IIRC, it was a D4Y that hit USS Franklin. Another hit USS Enterprise, but the bomb was a dud.
If Karnak had a wishlist though, he would have only like 20 planes, I read you like a book bud. :aok
Ultimately every aircraft, ship, boat and GV that fought in WWII is on my wishlist.
Reality being what it is, limited resources at HTC being what they are, HTC has to prioritize what is useful first and we should consider that when making our requests.
So, no, you do not "read me like a book." You live in fantasy land.