Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: chaser on September 30, 2011, 11:09:59 AM
-
Looking for some help with the 262. I got a couple sorties in it now and I can't hit anything with it. I know there's some really good sticks in here that are experts with the thing so any advice on flying and shooting with the 262 would be greatly appreciated :joystick:
-
Im no expert, i always die in them, but there are a few rules i never hold and the problem comes from it.
- Never accept a ho, not even against a brew. Everyone wanna try to ho you down (had a film about 20 hoin with me in 10 seconds...), do everything to avoid them: stik stir, rudder, etc. But when its already too late, dont try to break off in the last moment, rather ho back, the arse of the 262 is more vulnerable than a zeek, your chances are a bit better that way.
- Get close, lead a lot, dont be afraid to hold down the trigger a lil bit more. Aim will come after a while, dont worry.
- Stay fast. Youre the public enemy number one. People will climb to 20k only to dump that all in a dive on you. Set up a hard deck, lets say 3k, then you will have room to escape.
- Dont turnfight. The 262 is able to outscissor a couple planes but even if you win, you will be slow (sometimes low too), there will always be a high jug/f4u/190 that wanna jump on you.
-
Advice from a two bit hack:
Stay fast but beware of high speed augers. Slightly reducing throttle (once at speed) can add significant flight time. Always have your ESB open with your clipboard (you can check fuel status every time you bring up the clipboard). Once you have 10 minutes of fuel remaining, you might want to work on your exit strategy. Closure rates can be scary fast - collisions are a real danger. Poor ballistics make it quite difficult to hit a maneuvering fighter. You need other friendlies around or all attention will be on you, making kills much harder to come by (everyone will be check 6-ing each other). Great bomber killer/horde disruptor/goon hunter. Fly on the cautious side until you really know it well. Bottom line: when in doubt, extend and try again. Unless you have thousands of perks to spare, be patient or you will be disappointed. :cry
-
that's some real good "two bit" advice. :aok I'd pay four to remember all that when in 262s. only thing I could add would be have a second target picked out for when you over shoot. G/L :salute
-
Establish a few operational and engagement rules and use them. Use the weapon for the reason it was designed. Attacking high altitude bombers. Stay fast, quartering or frontal attacks only. Always ensure that you are making a diving attack that will ensure you superior speed with enough excess energy to allow you to maneuver to and through the blind spots of the target.
I like to start out high 24 to 26K. Dividing down to a few thousand feet below my target making a fast steep climb towards my targets blind spot at 500 or move. Firing my guns when the target starts to fill my gun sight. Two second burst, pulling up and climbing away from the target back to altitude, keeping my climb speed in the area of 350 MPH. Then setting up for the next attack run.
Experience counts, establish your rules and follow them. When my E6B indicates that I have just 15 minutes of fuel remaining. I disengage and RTB. I always attempt to RTB to the base that I launched from unless that base is flashing. If my RTB base is flashing I proceed at altitude to a base that has working radar with no nme darbar present in that sector. My initial approach is always planed as a high speed, power off, jet penetration from altitude to over fly the intended runway with a high speed pass at 50 feet AGL, with a turning climb to Cross Wind, Down Wind my intended runway at 1500 feet AGL, Base and Final.
At first , not many kills, but I stopped losing 262’s. I stick to my rules of engagement. I make multiple attacking runs and start to get kills. First 1, then 2 and soon pretty much can get all 3 in a group. I’m landing the kills and not losing the 262. The last time I lost the perks was because the server crash.
-
I picked up a tip from Lusche a while back that helped me a lot. Stagger your guns. I set mine at something like 650 and 500. The closure rate is so fast it's hard to hit at convergence so this way you get two chances and if you don't hit at convergence, well, it's hard not to hit something with a shotgun and one tater is all it takes. My kill rate in the 262 jumped way up after doing that and it's the only plane I set that way.
-
dont go high.....the best of the best in that plane you wont find over 5k.....
use the hartman dicta
See, decide, attack, reverse.
-
First, let's deal with a misperception. Many think that because the 262 is a jet that it's a high-altitude fighter, it isn't. It does cruise exceptionally well at altitude because your ground speed increases and fuel burn drops significantly so it's great for CAP and transit to the combat zone but climb, turn rates and acceleration drop quickly at higher altitudes, it's a true lead sled above 20k. Use high altitude for transit to the combat area but the plane fights best around 10k. From that altitude with speed you can outzoom anything but a 163 and have altitude to dive and accelerate away from any threats.
The "magic" number in a 262 is 300mph. 300mph gives you your best climb rate, good turn rate and the ability to accelerate to 450 or more very quickly by lowering your nose just a bit. If you drop much below that your acceleration rate is much lower even if you point your nose straight down. To understand this you have to understand the difference between a jet and prop. Acceleration rates for props are best at slow speeds and, due to prop efficiency, the rate drops at higher speeds. Jets are the opposite because of ram air effect. The faster you go the more air is rammed into the intake and the more thrust is produced. Low speed means low ram and low thrust. (That's why modern jets have afterburners).
As for tactics, the old "sneak-up-low-on-an-unsuspecting-fighter's-six" is by far the easiest way to get kills in the 262. Although the 262 was intended to destroy bombers the AH version isn't very good at it because it's much too delicate. Single ping kills of 262's are common as are PW's and taking out an engine. If you're going to do it then I recommend climbing above and in front of the bomber formation, dive straight down, take your shot, and then pull out ahead of the bombers and climb back up for another attack. At high altitude this is very difficult because of the large turn radius and poor climb rate so it can take a while to set up three kills. Mid to low altitude is different and you can knock off the whole formation quickly. Just be sure to extend outside of at least 1k yds when you start your climb back up otherwise that lone 50cal round will take off a wing.
Against fighters in a 1v1 scenario, I use the same extension pitchback fight used in the F-14. Make a few passes while avoiding hos to keep him interested. After each pass extend out to about 3k (remember the 262's large turn radius, less than that and you will still be in the turn at the merge). The target will typically try to climb to get an altitude advantage and be able to dive during the merge. Once he's done that then turn back in nose-low to get under him and accelerate to 400-450mph. At about 2k start pulling up into him for a vertical merge, take it straight up pure vertical, and watch him. If he runs then immediately roll to put your lift vector on him, pop a notch or two of flaps and pull your nose right to him. Once you're over the top set one notch of flaps and go after him. If, instead of running, he follows you up then extend vertically until you judge that he's about to fall off (don't get below 100mph doing this, the airplane can "hang" and it'll be difficult to recover). Pop the flaps again and dive right down on him as he hangs there. Another fun fight is the climbing spiral. Offset to one side and merge in a climbing turn (preferably against his torque, right turn for most NME, left for Typhoon, Tempests) and continue the fight in a climbing spiral. Do not let your speed go below 300 doing this. He's almost guaranteed to follow you up while trying to pull lead which will put him inside of your turn and cause him to bleed lots E doing it. Once you can see he's too slow to get his nose up to you then pop the flaps, tighten your turn and roll in on him. If he doesn't go for lead (some smart guys will instead keep their speed up and wait for you to make a mistake) then you can just level your wings, put the nose down just a bit and motor away from him to set up another.
One last thing though. Don't get too focused on your attack. The 262 will always gather a crowd so you've always got to be on the lookout. There always seems to be some high-alt Pony entering the fight at the most inopportune time so be very judicious when putting yourself in a vulnerable position like pure vertical or below 300.
EDIT: I forgot to mention. The airplane will really accelerate nose down and you can easily rip your wings off so a general rule is "nose down, throttle off, nose up, throttle on." There are times when you can violate the rule to good effect but always remember this plane is different from the others so follow the rule until you get a good feel for speed in the plane.
-
Just a tactic I like to use in the 262. When you are going for a merge on an enemy, start firing from 1.0K out, a half a second burst is usually enough, then break away instantly. 90% of the time, they'll be so greedy and intent on killing you that they'll continue straight to you, flying right into the streams of taters.
However, avoid doing this if they start firing at the same time you do or at 1.5K away. Then, it'll be YOU who run into the stream of bullets.
It's a risky move, but for me, it always works. :devil
On a side note, always take off from a base that is 2 sectors away from where you would normally take off in a regular fighter. Last thing you want is to be caught on take off. You have plenty of speed to get there in the same amount of time, and I always prefer to fly at 15K.
On landing, start throttling back one sector away, it takes a LONG time to slow down, so you'll need all the room you can get. Again (except for emergencies), always land a couple of sectors away from the fight.
Attacking bombers requires you to be extra careful, I use either the same tactics above, or I come in from a high 3/9 o'clock. NEVER come in from a dead 6 position.
Speed is always an issue, and you have to make sure to never go past 600mph. That's when the controls starts getting sluggish and any major movement results in ripped wings. If you ever get stuck in compression/a dive, use your trim tabs, (K) to go up, I(to go down) DON'T PRESS (I) IN A DIVE.
-
Thanks for all the help guys. I see many tactics I'll try the next time I up one. It seems like this bird requires a lot of practice and good SA (mine sucks :lol )
I'll probably up one tonight so you guys should probably be on the lookout for an easy 262 kill :ahand
-
Before you blow all of your perks try it out offline, attack the the drones like you would bombers. Get a feel of the guns and closing rates so when you collide and/or auger, you wont lose any perks
-
I would go offline, set up the eny cons at the alt you most likely attack, turn on the lead computer and practice high speed break turns with quick bursts at the end. Also set your guns to fire 2x2 - so trigger will fire 2, and full fire will send out a full 4. One full burst for close kills, one half for longer pulls.
-
Fly to near collision and fire point blank. With the 262's speed this is akin to flying on WEP in a D9 while everyone else is flying at 1/2 throttle: you can just fly yourself to almost any relative position.
It's not quite what can be called a merge (in the formation sense, not in the sense of a dueling merge), since you're not at all limited to shallow angle intersections. You know you are on collision course when the target is standing still on your screen (and growing in size). If it's just slightly moving, you are on path to just miss it. This is very easy to practice on offline drones or in the TA with a friend, to the point where (and this is ideally what you should try to get it to) it's become an only semi-conscious habit so that your actual thinking brainpower can be focused on predicting where the target is going. IE where you want to be going too. Visualizing this and constantly re-evaluating it should be a good part of your brain processing time, so to speak.
One of the pros is that this is probably the easiest fool proof way for hits.
One of the cons is that it's so easy that it's also easy to stop using any other method and become less flexible as a pilot.
When you can do this readily enough, it's easy to start firing only a pair of guns. Personally I still fire all 4 guns, but with a tiny burst. ~2, 3 rounds per gun max.
You can see a similar set up (minus the "jink" described therein) here
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,309723.0.html
-
The "magic" number in a 262 is 300mph. 300mph gives you your best climb rate, good turn rate and the ability to accelerate to 450 or more very quickly by lowering your nose just a bit. If you drop much below that your acceleration rate is much lower even if you point your nose straight down. To understand this you have to understand the difference between a jet and prop. Acceleration rates for props are best at slow speeds and, due to prop efficiency, the rate drops at higher speeds. Jets are the opposite because of ram air effect. The faster you go the more air is rammed into the intake and the more thrust is produced. Low speed means low ram and low thrust. (That's why modern jets have afterburners).
After reading this thread, I hopped into a jet to try out some of the suggestions. This paragraph was the single thing I had been completely unaware of before and it helped me immensely to understand where I was going wrong and why. Thank you Mace. I'm still not good in the 262, but I'm a heckuva lot better than I had been before.
:salute
Wiley.
-
Not many jet dweebs in here, except m00t. Mace is correct 300 is a critical speed, so is 450. Lead way way too much and you'll hit everything. Thats enough advice for now puuf
-
As strange as this sounds, I find It actually easier to land crossing shots. The ballistics are still pwning me ;)
I set convergence to 550/450 and fire all guns. This is to spread out the 30's more because landing just one usually results in a kill. That being said I've found that hitting the fuselage of bombers often does NOT result in a kill, It is important to try to aim elsewhere, because you certainly wouldnt want to risk your perks by making another pass.
-
Flying the plane is 1 thing... shooting the guns another.
I'd suggest 109G14, 109K4, Ta152H1 for 30mm practice. The Ta152 isn't as easy to fly but has 50% more ammo. Or practice with the 110G if you need a lot of ammo, but you probably won't survive too long in LWA environs.
In short, get used to the ballistics on more normal craft, then use that lead/computing/mental stuff you gain from them on the 262.
-
If you fly the jet above 5K you're waisting your time. The real lesson in driving jets is to stop worrying about losing them! If you can get this in your head, you will improve in it very quickly!
Grizz and Kappa would agree I'm sure! Those 2 lose plenty of jets, as do I!
:salute
JUGgler
-
I would like to read more advice on setting up the convergence for a nice shotgun effect.
For example, how far apart in convergence do you gentlemen feel produces this desired effect; my assumption is 100. I'm useto shooting from 400 and in on other rides (I try to do this in 109s but I tend to hit the most at 300 in them). Im thinking of trying a convergence of 500/400 and seeing how that plays out.
I've only taken it out in the MA once so far and only managed to get a kill, on a goon, when it was nearly at my nose :-P
-
I would like to read more advice on setting up the convergence for a nice shotgun effect.
For example, how far apart in convergence do you gentlemen feel produces this desired effect; my assumption is 100. I'm useto shooting from 400 and in on other rides (I try to do this in 109s but I tend to hit the most at 300 in them). Im thinking of trying a convergence of 500/400 and seeing how that plays out.
I've only taken it out in the MA once so far and only managed to get a kill, on a goon, when it was nearly at my nose :-P
Using the .target command offline or in the TA will show you the effect of different convergence settings at different ranges. It will also show you the dispersion at different ranges. For example set convergence to 300 and set the target at 100, 200, 300, etc yards out to 800. Use ".target 100" in the text buffer without the quotes to set the target at 100 yards. Use .target 0 to reset or turn off the target function. You might find that it hardly matters where you set convergence in the 262 you just need to get close before you shoot.
-
I would like to read more advice on setting up the convergence for a nice shotgun effect.
For example, how far apart in convergence do you gentlemen feel produces this desired effect; my assumption is 100. I'm useto shooting from 400 and in on other rides (I try to do this in 109s but I tend to hit the most at 300 in them). Im thinking of trying a convergence of 500/400 and seeing how that plays out.
I've only taken it out in the MA once so far and only managed to get a kill, on a goon, when it was nearly at my nose :-P
FLS is right but with all four cannons located in the nose you won't get much difference in the lateral dispersion like you do with wing mounts. Convergence really only affects the vertical dispersal and not really that much. The farther out you set your dispersal and greater the "loft" of the cannon rounds will be in order to counteract drop however, with these cannon set to 650 they will still hit low on a 650yd target, about 1/4 of the typical gunsight diameter. Set to 200yds you'll get a fairly nice grouping at the right elevation. By "fairly nice" I mean not bad for the poor ballistics and nothing at all like the pinpoint accuracy of the 50cal's or Hispano 20mm. Basically you get a "shotgun" pattern anyway with all guns set at the same convergence. If you set one pair at 200 and the other at 600 you'll end up with a vertically oriented oval pattern vice a circle but I don't think that really helps and you can't really "snipe" with these guns at long range so you'll be wasting a lot of ammo. I'd set all guns at 200 to 400yds and, if you want to try a long range shot just remember to aim high. In the end, with the 262 the best bet is to just run him down and kill him close where you can just fire one bank of guns to conserve rounds.
-
FLS is right but with all four cannons located in the nose you won't get much difference in the lateral dispersion like you do with wing mounts. Convergence really only affects the vertical dispersal and not really that much. The farther out you set your dispersal and greater the "loft" of the cannon rounds will be in order to counteract drop however, with these cannon set to 650 they will still hit low on a 650yd target, about 1/4 of the typical gunsight diameter. Set to 200yds you'll get a fairly nice grouping at the right elevation. By "fairly nice" I mean not bad for the poor ballistics and nothing at all like the pinpoint accuracy of the 50cal's or Hispano 20mm. Basically you get a "shotgun" pattern anyway with all guns set at the same convergence. If you set one pair at 200 and the other at 600 you'll end up with a vertically oriented oval pattern vice a circle but I don't think that really helps and you can't really "snipe" with these guns at long range so you'll be wasting a lot of ammo. I'd set all guns at 200 to 400yds and, if you want to try a long range shot just remember to aim high. In the end, with the 262 the best bet is to just run him down and kill him close where you can just fire one bank of guns to conserve rounds.
I did a test run on the TA with 400/300 and what you said is true. If I aim for the 3rd ring up from the center at 600 out, it will hit roughly in the center. I'll try it with them all set at 400 in a couple of days just to see how similar the spray pattern is. I'm aware of the lofting, I've been trying to play with it on the 109K4, though the balistics of it's 30mm seem far worse than the 262s :noid(I can't hit anything with the 109K4 30 MM unless it's hanging in the air or I'm right ontop of it. Trying to get better though).
thanks for the helpful info:-D I'll also try my luck sometime with just using a single pare of guns at a time.
-
I'd worry about first getting your aim where you immediately see how much of a difference such or such convergence settings make, before worrying about convergence possibly diminishing your gunnery.
Timing is more important. More important to get right before convergence.
-
On landing, start throttling back one sector away, it takes a LONG time to slow down, so you'll need all the room you can get.
I have to disagree with this, the best way to land all fighters is the standard combat landing pattern (see the Help section) because you stay at combat speed all the way to the field, burning off your E with 2x tight, flat turns to land.
Its even more important to do this with the 262 because the acceleration is so bad at low speeds - you really dont want to get jumped 5 miles out from the field bumbling around on the deck at 200mph. I enter the field at 350-400, @1-2k.
I normally pop out a notch of flaps to help keep the speed down as I descend to the field (the 262 is a very slippery airframe), and as a last resort cross-control is really effective if you come in way too hot.
-
it hardly matters where you set convergence in the 262 you just need to get close before you shoot.
i'm no expert but I've never had a problem with gunnery in the 262.
the above matches my feelings...don't overthink it, just get real close before you let rip
-
IIRC engines off is more draggy than on. Could be wrong, never actually tested it.
-
you can't really "snipe" with these guns at long range so you'll be wasting a lot of ammo.
You can if you know the guns ballistics. Somewhere around here I posted a screen shot of me hitting a P-38 with the 30's in a 190A-8 from 1000 yards (in the BOG scenario) but I've always flown the A8 with guns set to 650 yards and know just how high I have to aim.
-
IIRC engines off is more draggy than on. Could be wrong, never actually tested it.
That has been my experience... I think it's the same drag but no "idle thrust" helping along.
I don't like to come in hot... I don't come in too slow either. What you CAN do upon landing is pop a notch of flaps at about 350mph or whatever the max speed is. This will start to slow you down until you can pop another.... As you keep popping notches of flaps it will keep slowing you down allowing for the next. By the time you're at 4 notches you should be slow enough for final approach. Use full flaps on landing for best drag to help you stop. Kill the engines as soon as you touch down if not already off, and hit the brakes and hold them!
-
You can if you know the guns ballistics. Somewhere around here I posted a screen shot of me hitting a P-38 with the 30's in a 190A-8 from 1000 yards (in the BOG scenario) but I've always flown the A8 with guns set to 650 yards and know just how high I have to aim.
I didn't say that it wasn't possible to get a hit at long range and I have also landed an occasional lucky round well out there but it's usually a waste of ammo to try due to the scattergun pattern. "Sniping" implies precision, i.e., one shot, one kill at long range but the 30mm has a very low Ph (probability of hit) because of it's lack of precision as compared to 50cals or Hispanos so no, I don't recommend people try to do this as standard practice. With the 262's speed it usually isn't necessary to even try, just close to a high Ph range and blast him with just a short burst.
-
hey mace is the combat landing Rolex explains in the AH trainers section still used for fast jets?
-
hey mace is the combat landing Rolex explains in the AH trainers section still used for fast jets?
Are you talking about Rolex's writeup for CV operations? Yes, that sort of pattern is still used for VFR conditions (called a Case I recovery). The pattern Rolex describes uses the modern numbers with the "break" at 800ft and then a descent to 600ft on downwind. I think the WWII altitudes might have been a bit lower but I have never seen it described (I always mean to ask my Dad but keep forgetting). Ashore, we use a similar pattern but usually at 1k ft AGL and you extend a bit past the abeam position before starting the approach turn (because the airfield isn't moving away from you). One thing is to not confuse this with the general aviation style VFR pattern. General Aviation flies a box pattern with four distinct sides with turns at each corner while this pattern has only two sides connected by continuous turns (the break and the approach turn). This tighter pattern let's you keep a continuous 6G break turn in so you can slow down rapidly and get on deck quickly.
-
hes done one for airfield landings too at http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/combatlanding/combatlanding.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/combatlanding/combatlanding.htm)
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/combatlanding/ovrhd.jpg)