Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Skyguns MKII on October 06, 2011, 12:43:31 AM

Title: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: Skyguns MKII on October 06, 2011, 12:43:31 AM
we know many tanks in the game have smoke munitions. But did they have more than just white smoke? did they ever use different colors? Does anybody have evidence to support it?
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: AWwrgwy on October 06, 2011, 01:29:16 PM
White Phosphorus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus) for the most part.

It's meant to screen you not say "look!! over here by the red cloud!!"

It also has the added bonus of burning what it touches.



wrongway
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: gyrene81 on October 06, 2011, 01:53:27 PM
White Phosphorus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus) for the most part.

It's meant to screen you not say "look!! over here by the red cloud!!"

It also has the added bonus of burning what it touches.



wrongway
uhhh...wp was used in anti armor and anti personnel munitions, not smoke signals.

i found an online reference for british munitions that shows what colors could be used in a smoke projectile.

Quote
BE smoke shells were activated by a time fuze to burst them in the air about 2° 30' above the angle of sight from guns to the target area (roughly 950 feet at 7000 yards).  The ejected canisters followed the shell's trajectory to fall over about 20 - 30 yards along the line of fire, although they could bounce a greater distance if the angle of descent was too flat.  The fuze action ignited the bursting charge (gunpowder), which caused three things to happen: the baseplate was blown out, the flash down the central core ignited a priming compound in the smoke containers and the pressure on the baffle plate ejected the smoke containers.  Canisters burnt for 75 - 90 seconds.  Figure 9 shows a 25-pdr Mk 1D shell with 3 smoke containers, but the initial 25-pdr smoke shell the Mk 1A, was not streamlined and carried 4 containers while Mk 2D still carried 3 containers but was 2 inches shorter.  The standard screening smoke was white but red, blue, green and yellow smokes were introduced for target indicating in 1943.  Coloured smoke comprised a fuel (such as lactose), an oxidiser and the appropriate coloured dye so unlike HCE it actually burnt.  The Fire Planning page explains the use of BE smoke in smoke screens.
http://nigelef.tripod.com/ammo.htm (http://nigelef.tripod.com/ammo.htm)

still looking for references to what tanks used but, white seems to have been the standard for various sizes/types of smoke grenades.
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: ap1102 on October 06, 2011, 03:11:19 PM
uhhh

White phosphorus is a material made from a common allotrope of the chemical element phosphorus that is used in smoke, tracer, illumination and incendiary munitions.[1] Other common names include WP, and the slang term "Willie Pete," which is dated from its use in Vietnam, and is still sometimes used in military jargon.[2] As an incendiary weapon, white phosphorus burns fiercely and can set cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles on fire, and cause serious burns or death.
 
In addition to its offensive capabilities, white phosphorus is also a highly efficient smoke-producing agent, burning quickly and causing an instant bank of smoke. As a result, smoke-producing white phosphorus munitions are very common, particularly as smoke grenades for infantry, loaded in grenade launchers on tanks and other armored vehicles, or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars. These create smoke screens to mask movement, position or the origin of fire from the enemy. White phosphorus is used in bombs, artillery, mortars, and short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact.
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: gyrene81 on October 06, 2011, 03:32:36 PM
uhhh

<copy and paste from wikipedia>
you will find that as you get further away from wikipedia and closer to military and historical resources, you get better information.
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: morfiend on October 06, 2011, 04:30:19 PM
you will find that as you get further away from wikipedia and closer to military and historical resources, you get better information.



 gyrene,

  In the writeup you supplied it states an oxidiser is used. What would that be??  likely WP, although it could be many other things.

  As a young lad I would make smoke bombs using sugar instead of charcoal in a gunpowder recipe,a little magnesium pamagnate would make great purple smoke!



    :salute
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: gyrene81 on October 06, 2011, 05:14:47 PM
gyrene,

  In the writeup you supplied it states an oxidiser is used. What would that be??  likely WP, although it could be many other things.
i stand corrected morfiend...eh sorry wrongway. that reference shows lactose being one form of fuel used, which i found a bit odd. i've found a couple of other references for munitions that stated that among the fuel types, wp and another form of phosphorus were used depending on the purpose of the ammunition.

looks like the japanese used wp in their smoke hand grenades, at least the 50mm type anyway...
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/jp-smoke-grenade/index.html (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/jp-smoke-grenade/index.html)

evidently the german "tater mashers" used hexaclorethane...
http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerhgr/stck/index.html (http://www.inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerhgr/stck/index.html)

another interesting tidbit...should partially answer skysguns question regarding colors.
http://inertord.com/riflegrensmoke.html (http://inertord.com/riflegrensmoke.html)

the u.s. smoke grenades refer to a "starter charge" which i suppose we should assume is a small amount of wp due to the amount of time they discharged smoke, ~1 minute.
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: morfiend on October 06, 2011, 05:55:59 PM
  No probs gyrene,believe it or not sugar burns quite well,infact sugar processing plants must monitor levels in the air much like flour as it can combust from a simple static discharge.

  Like I said you can make a nice smoke bomb but substituting sugar for charcoal,add in copper sulfate and you get green smoke and I already told you how to make purple!


  I think NaCl is an oxidiser but various types of aluminum oxide could also be used and it wouldnt surprise me to find it in some of the smoke munitions. Although in 1940's they may have not know about it!



   :salute
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: AHTbolt on October 06, 2011, 07:44:46 PM
The smoke grenades we used on our tanks had small flakes of rubber mixed in it that burned and stayed suspended with the smoke so that thermal sights couldn't see through the smoke.
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: morfiend on October 06, 2011, 08:18:32 PM
 I made a mistake too,it's  potasium chloride not sodium chloride.... :o






   :salute
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: Skyguns MKII on October 06, 2011, 10:09:03 PM
Is this a chemistry test? I HATE chemistry  :mad:
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: Shuffler on October 07, 2011, 10:08:50 AM
  No probs gyrene,believe it or not sugar burns quite well,infact sugar processing plants must monitor levels in the air much like flour as it can combust from a simple static discharge.

  Like I said you can make a nice smoke bomb but substituting sugar for charcoal,add in copper sulfate and you get green smoke and I already told you how to make purple!


  I think NaCl is an oxidiser but various types of aluminum oxide could also be used and it wouldnt surprise me to find it in some of the smoke munitions. Although in 1940's they may have not know about it!



   :salute

Anything made fine enough is compbustable. Our Laser has a large vacuum system to pull metal dust out of the unit. The dust is captured in a large shaker filter setup. It then drops into a stainless barrel that has to be changed often.
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: Zoney on October 07, 2011, 11:07:35 AM
It should be "Tanks and their smoke munitions".

FYI, not trying to be a spelling/grammer nazi, but maybe you did not know.

There: "Go over there"

They're: "They're coming to dinner" (They are)

Their: "Tanks and their smoke munitions"

Thank you
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: Shuffler on October 07, 2011, 11:12:04 AM
also the air      The air over there is atrocious.  :neener:
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: gyrene81 on October 07, 2011, 11:16:31 AM
maybe it is a little bit of "squirrel!!!" syndrome...

looking at tanks and; there, smoke munitions!!!
Title: Re: tanks and there smoke munitions
Post by: Digr1 on October 07, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
Is this a chemistry test? I HATE chemistry  :mad:

Better liviing through chemistry