Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Soulyss on October 11, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
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Looks like the 'ol IV is finally getting it's facelift along with an earlier variant.
Lookin' good HTC and Greebo. :)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-iv-f-2.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-f-3.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-iv-f-1.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-h-4.jpg)
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:aok
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Very nice! :aok
going to need the gun charts now to see what the short barrel can do!
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Me thinks somebody did a Market Research Study and found that consumers want tanks.
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Late war arena's new lamb to the TigerII slaughter
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Not much on GVs but wow... looks great.
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What the hell is going with the AH staff? A lot of new AC/VH and updats. Not that i do not mind so keep them coming.
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Oh good, a new target for the new P40N ! :rock
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:airplane: :cry:
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sweet! an early version without the billboard looking side skirts. :aok
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These will be good for special events!
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Well... a new model for it, and a new variant! On the AH front page!
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-iv-f-1.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-iv-f-2.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-f-3.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-h-4.jpg)
We have updated the Panzer IV Ausf H for the next version of Aces High. We will also be introducing a new earlier Panzer IV variant, the Ausf F. The new variant can be outfitted as an F1 with the short barreled 75mm KwK37 L/24 or as an F2 with the more powerful KwK40 L/43.
Greebo made both of these skins. The Ausf F skin is a tank from the 14th Panzer Division operating in Southern Russia in 1942. The Ausf H paint scheme is from the 2nd Panzer Division based in France in the Spring of 1944.
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Damn....Soulyss beat me to it!
His post is here... no need for two of these:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,321639.0.html
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i'm not much of a tanker but, that is awesome.
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They have really kicked it up a notch with the new 3D models and new skins... very very well done!
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T34 neglect
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The panzer4 f looks awsome
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Looks like the Panzer is going to make its debut in EW. The F was produced in 1941... making it an EW candidate... while the H would remain a MW/LW tank.
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Looks like the Panzer is going to make its debut in EW. The F was produced in 1941... making it an EW candidate... while the H would remain a MW/LW tank.
When was the Panzer IV F2 introduced? It seems that for Barbarossa events the F1 should be used, but the F2 might need to be heavily limited or even not used.
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And yet still no He 111. I am personally not in favor of it, but it does appear to be the largest gap in the HTC plane/vehicle set.
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Looks like the 'ol IV is finally getting it's facelift along with an earlier variant.
Lookin' good HTC and Greebo. :)
Waffle, another fantastic job on teh modelling of that tank. No detail spared and it shows in the quality. That must take lots of time, but the results are worth it.
Greebo, great skins. Looks like a photo of the real thing. You are a true artist sir.
:salute to both of you.
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When was the Panzer IV F2 introduced? It seems that for Barbarossa events the F1 should be used, but the F2 might need to be heavily limited or even not used.
(from Wikipedia...yeah... I know)
By 1941, 462 Panzer IV Ausf. Fs had been assembled, and the up-gunned Ausf. F2 was entering production.
(from Historyofwar.org http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_IV.html )
The biggest change to the design of the Panzer IV came late in 1941, after the German invasion of Russia. None of the German tank guns could easily penetrate the armour of the Soviet KV-1 or T-34 tanks, and a desperate program of upgrades was put in place. The most successful of these saw the development of a long-barrelled 75mm gun, the KwK40 L/43. When the Panzer IV Ausf F2, armed with this gun, entered service in the summer of 1942 the Panzer IV finally became the powerful main battle tank that it is remembered as.
(from achtungpanzer.com http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm )
From April of 1941 to March of 1942, 487 of another variant Ausf F1(F) were producedby Krupp-Gruson along with Vomag and Nibelungenwerke. Ausf F1 was the last of Panzerkampfwagen IVs based on the short version chassis and armed with 75mm L/24 gun. In March of 1942, 25 of Ausf F1s were later converted to Ausf F2s. Ausf F also featured new turret design, drive sprocket and idler. Ausf F was also fitted with 400mm wide tracks instead of old 360mm wide one.Overall, Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf A to F1 were designated Sd.Kfz.161 and were all armed with short 75mm KwK 37 L/24 gun.
In March of 1942, next variant Ausf F2 was produced, followed by Ausf G in May.Current research shows that in reality designation Ausf F2 was not used whendescribing Ausf F armed with 75mm L/43 gun and instead tanks known as Ausf F2 were in fact early Ausf G tanks.Ausf F2 and Ausf G variants were based on the long version PzKpfw IV chassis and were armed with newer 75mm KwK 40 L/43 gun (that was able to compete with Soviet T-34s armed with 76.2mm gun). When encountered in North Africa, British nicknamed Ausf F2 (early Ausf G) - "Mark IV Special", since it was superior to any American or British tank at the time. The installation of the new gun increased the overall weight of the tank and reduced its speed.Both Ausf F(F1) and Ausf F2 were identical except for their armament.Ausf F2’s new 75mm L/43 gun was mounted with single baffle muzzle brake.
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When was the Panzer IV F2 introduced? It seems that for Barbarossa events the F1 should be used, but the F2 might need to be heavily limited or even not used.
summer of 42?
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_IV.html (http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_IV.html)
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And yet still no He 111. I am personally not in favor of it, but it does appear to be the largest gap in the HTC plane/vehicle set.
There are much larger ones.
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wow this update got really interesting! salute to the GVers!
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There are much larger ones.
You are a respected community member, Lusche. What would be your recommendation? I personally would like to see the A26, but I think we have enough late war American things. I was thinking more along the lines of scenario needs, hard to do a Battle of Britain without an He 111. That is where I am coming from in referencing a "gap" in availability in-game.
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You are a respected community member, Lusche. What would be your recommendation? I personally would like to see the A26, but I think we have enough late war American things. I was thinking more along the lines of scenario needs, hard to do a Battle of Britain without an He 111. That is where I am coming from in referencing a "gap" in availability in-game.
Ki-43 is a larger gap than the He111. Pe-2 is also a larger gap. LaGG-3 or Yak-1 are also larger gaps. Beaufighter and Wellington are arguably larger gaps.
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You are a respected community member, Lusche. What would be your recommendation? I personally would like to see the A26, but I think we have enough late war American things. I was thinking more along the lines of scenario needs, hard to do a Battle of Britain without an He 111. That is where I am coming from in referencing a "gap" in availability in-game.
A26? WHY? More "flash bang"? It has 8/.50 cals in the nose and 4k ord. What can it do that the A20 cant?
The He111, Pe-2, Tu-2, D520, Ki-43 "Oscar", EW Brewster Buffalo (the real thing, not the FM2/Zeke hybrid AH has now), Me410, and Beaufighter to name a few. Those would fill huge gaps in the AH line up and they are currently missed in a major way for scenarios.
BTW... I'm diggin' the Panzer IV updates! Having EW, MW, and LW versions will be nice! :aok Nice work, Waffle and Greebo!
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Carry 5k of ord and be a fast carrier killer deluxe in-game. Don't confuse what I personally would like to see with what, in my opinion, should be in game - two different things.
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Carry 5k of ord and be a fast carrier killer deluxe in-game. Don't confuse what I personally would like to see with what, in my opinion, should be in game - two different things.
"fast carrier killer" as in kamikaze? As designed, it was used for close air support for ground forces. Not that it is a huge deal, but I have 2 printed sources that say it carried 4k ord. I do know that there were field mods that allowed it to carry extra ordnance most notably rockets. To each his own, I guess.
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Jesus Loon, it isn't a competition, just an opinion. We all have'em. Lighten up.
Lusche, still interested in your thoughts.
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Just to get everyone back on track here... :D
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-iv-f-2.jpg)
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I've wondered before why they went with a short barrel (the Wehrmacht, not HTC :)) gun on some of the Panzer IVs. As I understand it, it would be less capable vs armored targets, does it confer some sort of benefit that I'm not seeing? ie can it do something that the long barrel couldn't? Was it cheaper? Was it more readily available when the thank was first introduced?
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so why that barrel is so small? not talking about you.
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does it confer some sort of benefit that I'm not seeing?
I'd imagine the shorter barrel would be a lot more effective in close quarters, like a forest road or in a town. Not to mention, the cost and time to produce would be less.
Just my view, I can't back it up with hard facts.
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I've wondered before why they went with a short barrel (the Wehrmacht, not HTC :)) gun on some of the Panzer IVs. As I understand it, it would be less capable vs armored targets, does it confer some sort of benefit that I'm not seeing? ie can it do something that the long barrel couldn't? Was it cheaper? Was it more readily available when the thank was first introduced?
Longer barreled, high velocity guns were a later step in the evolution of tanks. When the IV appeared with the short 75 (pre-war), the other "main" tank, the Panzer III was equipped with a 37mm gun. And compared to that, the short 75mm was a significant improvement particularly when facing non-armored targets.
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Longer barreled, high velocity guns were a later step in the evolution of tanks. When the IV appeared with the short 75 (pre-war), the other "main" tank, the Panzer III was equipped with a 37mm gun. And compared to that, the short 75mm was a significant improvement particularly when facing non-armored targets.
Exactly. The Mark IV was the infantry support tank, the III was the anti-tank tank.
- oldman
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You have to remember that at the beginning of WW2, many leaders still thought of tanks as just infantry support vehicles. Tank vs tank fighting was thought to be a rare occurrence, and tanks where looked upon more like armored calvery to fight infantry and fortified emplacements with. Smaller, short barrelled, lower velocity guns were the go to tank armament because of that philosophy.
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Beautiful and wonderful new toys HTC! :aok
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Im wondering how would the short barrelled gun perform vs the t34's 76mm one.
Is it capable to kill anything but lvts, jeeps and halftracks?
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its true look at front page
WTG HTC :rock :banana: :banana:
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Old news... http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,321639.0.html
Pay Attention!
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that would be too much work fugitive...
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Im wondering how would the short barrelled gun perform vs the t34's 76mm one.
Is it capable to kill anything but lvts, jeeps and halftracks?
lower velocity ammunition. not as much range. lower long range accuracy.
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that would be too much work fugitive...
I know, long day at school. It's asking wayyyyyyy to much :devil
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its true look at front page
WTG HTC :rock :banana: :banana:
Really? Didn't know...
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Question-Are these tracks on the front or some sort of armor?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-h-4.jpg
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Im wondering how would the short barrelled gun perform vs the t34's 76mm one.
Is it capable to kill anything but lvts, jeeps and halftracks?
The 75mm KwK 37 L/24 gun (short barrel) has less power than the 75mm KwK 40 L/43, which has less power than the 75mm KwK 40 L/48 (currently in game). The F-34 tank gun on the T-34, overpowers the short barreled L/24 easily... and depending on the ammo used (AP or HVAP) varies against the L/43 and L/48 gun.
You can get all the armor penetration ratings and compare them here:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/guns/75-mm.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/guns.asp
I was going to recreate the tables here... but its too much of a pain in the hiney. :D
Question-Are these tracks on the front or some sort of armor?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-h-4.jpg
Those are spare tracks
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:aok
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:O "... for the next version of Aces High..." ? :headscratch:
:noid
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looks phenomenal :aok
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:O "... for the next version of Aces High..." ? :headscratch:
:noid
you noticed to :noid :noid :noid
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(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/awad/bow-down-together.gif)
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The 75mm KwK 37 L/24 gun (short barrel) has less power than the 75mm KwK 40 L/43, which has less power than the 75mm KwK 40 L/48 (currently in game). The F-34 tank gun on the T-34, overpowers the short barreled L/24 easily... and depending on the ammo used (AP or HVAP) varies against the L/43 and L/48 gun.
You can get all the armor penetration ratings and compare them here:
The Soviet 76mm F-34 tank gun has less AP capability than the M4/75mm, just food for thought. ;) Also, at 1000 yards, that same F-34 76mm only has 10-12mm more AP ability than the short barreled 75mm on the Panzer IV F (75mm KwK 37 L/24), hardly much worth mentioning, imo. :) The T34/76 has a leg up in 1v1 tank duels against the Panzer IV F because of its armor more so than its gun.
Also, HVAP loses any advantage once ranges of 1000-1200 yards, it simply does not have the kinetic energy to punch through. So at ranges beyond 1000 yards, the Panzer F2 and H have a distinct advantage over the T34/76. The HVAP brings the T34/76 up to par with the other tanks. Heck, the H has better AP ability than the T34/85 and M4/76, yet we'd never know it in AH, at least with the current version (never seemed to get the job done like the M4/76 or T34/85). Hopefully, the new model will be more on cue with its true capabilities.
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you noticed to :noid :noid :noid
Each update is a new "version". Take your tin foil hats off now, gents. Everything will be just fine. :lol
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Like Smokinloon said, the big major updates are "new versions" while bug fixes are called "patches".
It'll be pretty cool to have the Stubby in the game, I'll bet it'll be a great support / town killer tank.
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Like Smokinloon said, the big major updates are "new versions" while bug fixes are called "patches".
It'll be pretty cool to have the Stubby in the game, I'll bet it'll be a great support / town killer tank.
My knee jerk reaction to that was to say that the different 75mm guns all fired the same HE round. While I'm still not %100 sure either way, I have a source that list the Pzr IV H's 75mm Kw.K.40 L / 48 as having a 5.8kg projectile w/ a .64 charge of Amatol (TNT), and the Pzr IV F1's 75mm Kw.K. 37 L / 24 as having a 5.74kg projectile w/ a .69kg charge of Amatol. Yet, both are named exactly the same (7.5cm Sprgr. 34).
So hmmmmm.... not sure what to think.
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Really? Didn't know...
was a diff thread did not see this one :(
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Question-Are these tracks on the front or some sort of armor?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/stories/news/panzer4/panzer-4-h-4.jpg
Those are spare tracks
they were used as applique armor enhancements too. those track links could keep 1 or 2 rounds from penetrating and give the crew time to react.
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they were used as applique armor enhancements too. those track links could keep 1 or 2 rounds from penetrating and give the crew time to react.
so, how exactly were they used as armor? kind of an odd place to put additional tracks if its supposed to be for protection, especially on top of the "fold" in the upper hull.
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so, how exactly were they used as armor? kind of an odd place to put additional tracks if its supposed to be for protection, especially on top of the "fold" in the upper hull.
research it yourself...that's the only way you're going to learn and understand the concept.
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My knee jerk reaction to that was to say that the different 75mm guns all fired the same HE round. While I'm still not %100 sure either way, I have a source that list the Pzr IV H's 75mm Kw.K.40 L / 48 as having a 5.8kg projectile w/ a .64 charge of Amatol (TNT), and the Pzr IV F1's 75mm Kw.K. 37 L / 24 as having a 5.74kg projectile w/ a .69kg charge of Amatol. Yet, both are named exactly the same (7.5cm Sprgr. 34).
So hmmmmm.... not sure what to think.
I know exactly what to think... :D
What does the Tiger2 have for explosive charge in its HE shell? Because that will take out a town building with one hit.
Think maybe stubby can do that? If it can that would make it a real game changer.
Either way all I can say is :O I cant wait for all the new toys :aok
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Also, HVAP loses any advantage once ranges of 1000-1200 yards, it simply does not have the kinetic energy to punch through. So at ranges beyond 1000 yards, the Panzer F2 and H have a distinct advantage over the T34/76.
I doubt many tanks were firing at each other at 1000+ yard ranges in WWII. Is that possible in AH?
- oldman
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I doubt many tanks were firing at each other at 1000+ yard ranges in WWII. Is that possible in AH?
- oldman
I can not source this, because I am both stupid and lazy, but I am understanding that shots at much greater distances were made routinely in RL. I want to say that I've read about lots of reports of Tiger tanks specifically firing well outside that range because their opponent could not.
In AH it's very much possible, although in a Panzer, or T34's outside of 1600yards I find it hard to see what deflection I am actually aiming at, and as a result i get a good amount or ricochets.
I think Butcher can help with the historically accurate part, as well as the ingame part in terms of explanation better than I. or Luche or DR7, or Hooter...etc...
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I know exactly what to think... :D
What does the Tiger2 have for explosive charge in its HE shell? Because that will take out a town building with one hit.
Think maybe stubby can do that? If it can that would make it a real game changer.
Either way all I can say is :O I cant wait for all the new toys :aok
Hmmm... really? A King Tiger does 312 lbs of damage with its HE shell??? I have yet to test this but me thinks HTC would not give an HE shell from a tank more "ooomph" than the 28cm rockets fired by the SdKfz 251. HTC has assigned a damage value of 285 lbs of damage to the 28cm "Wurfkorper" bombardment rockets.
Without testing, I'd be willing to bet the King Tiger does 234 lbs of HE damage right along side the Tiger I and T34/85. I bet there was damage already done if the buildings went down w 1 shot... OR... someone at HTC was drunk when they assigned a 312+ lb damage value to the HE of the King Tiger. ;)
Oh, just an FYI: the M4A3/75mm and M3/75mm (same gun) are second only to the 3 big boys with a HE damage value of 178. Actually, the LVT-4 should do the same HE damage as the M4/M3 75mm since the LVT-4 fires the same 75mm HE shell, but it only does 156 lbs like the T34/76, Panzer IV, and Panther.
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I doubt many tanks were firing at each other at 1000+ yard ranges in WWII. Is that possible in AH?
- oldman
In North Africa and on the Eastern Front, ranges of 1000 yards were very common. Especially on the wide open plains and steppes of Eastern Europe. In Western Europe, the ranges were not nearly as long due to the abundance of trees, hedge rows, etc. The Germans used their superior optics to good use whenever they could.
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IIRC the Jagdpanther *given the opportunity* shot at tanks from about 3 miles or so away :O
i know the elephant was designed for long distance tank sniping during the battle of kursk.
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Hmmm... really? A King Tiger does 312 lbs of damage with its HE shell??? I have yet to test this but me thinks HTC would not give an HE shell from a tank more "ooomph" than the 28cm rockets fired by the SdKfz 251. HTC has assigned a damage value of 285 lbs of damage to the 28cm "Wurfkorper" bombardment rockets.
Without testing, I'd be willing to bet the King Tiger does 234 lbs of HE damage right along side the Tiger I and T34/85. I bet there was damage already done if the buildings went down w 1 shot... OR... someone at HTC was drunk when they assigned a 312+ lb damage value to the HE of the King Tiger. ;)
Oh, just an FYI: the M4A3/75mm and M3/75mm (same gun) are second only to the 3 big boys with a HE damage value of 178. Actually, the LVT-4 should do the same HE damage as the M4/M3 75mm since the LVT-4 fires the same 75mm HE shell, but it only does 156 lbs like the T34/76, Panzer IV, and Panther.
Relax please, I asked what the numbers were, and I was not specific. But if you shoot a building with an HE round from a Tiger2 it wipes out a building with one hit (unless I was drunk and remembered it wrong :headscratch:) And I was wondering that if the new panzer does more HE dmg that maybe it would be just enough to take a building out with one hit.
Sheesh...go offline and test it or something, no need to be mean to me :cry
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Relax please, I asked what the numbers were, and I was not specific. But if you shoot a building with an HE round from a Tiger2 it wipes out a building with one hit (unless I was drunk and remembered it wrong :headscratch:) And I was wondering that if the new panzer does more HE dmg that maybe it would be just enough to take a building out with one hit.
Sheesh...go offline and test it or something, no need to be mean to me :cry
I will test it soon, you've made me curious. :) Although, I bet Loooshy has tested it already. Looshy, what say you???? :aok
Im not sure of the exact damage value assigned to the HE round of the Tiger II, but I'm willing to bet it is the same as the Tiger I and T34/85. There is no scale that HTC used that is of rhyme or reason. If we start at the bottom of HE capable gv's and work our way up (M8 vs Tiger II) and compare the weight of the projectile and the weight of the explosive charge of all the HE rounds in between we will find that there is not a scaled and linear transgression of how HTC assigned damage to the HE shells. The amount of difference between the Tiger I 88mm HE and the T34/85 HE is quite a bit (%20 more TNT in favor of the Tiger, iirc), yet in AH they have the exact same damage value assigned (234 lbs of dmg). With that said, I'm not finding actual data on the Tiger II's 88mm HE but I can not imagine it to be much more capable, if any, than the Tiger I's HE. As I stated in my prior post, the 28cm "Wurfkorper" has been assigned a damage value of 285 lbs of damage, yet are 86kg heavy with 45kg of that weight being TNT. The HE shell of the Tiger I's 88mm shell weighs 10kg and there is less than 1kg of TNT, yet that has a damage value of 234 lbs. Find the logic in that. Remember the lowly M8 I mentioned? That has an HE warhead of .73 with .039kg of TNT stuffed into the warhead, yet that does 31 lbs of damage. Start doing the ratios and you'll see that HTC does not assign based on a scale but rather "how many shots does it take to destroy X OBJ".
I half way think HTC needs to A: get away from the same weight for all OBJ (312 lbs to destroy ords, barracks, fuel tanks, radar, town buildings, 2780 lbs for all hangers, etc). No more rubber stamp. B: Each month change the amount of poundage needed to destroy an OBJ. C: Get the HE rounds for the gv's in some sort of historically accurate scale and make them the standard, not the OBJ targets. Give each gv their due with properly scaled HE damages.
*rant off* Sorry for the tangent, but each time this stuff comes up I wonder.
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WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!! Glad to see this!! Not only is it great to see an update for the Panzer but a new version of it to go along!
A little curious though. The panzer was the hardes tank to kill with a jeep, almost impossible. But all of the updated tanks are easy to kill so I wonder if the panzer will be as easy to kill now as the rest? :devil :devil
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The panzer was the hardes tank to kill with a jeep, almost impossible.
The "A" in AFV stands for armor. ;)