Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SmokinLoon on October 11, 2011, 12:56:00 PM
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As seen on the front page! :aok Another WAY TO GO, HTC!!!! :D
oops. See this link:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,321639.0.html
title changed. ;)
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that would be same turret, different gun choices... :D
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I have a question brought up by these new Panzer guns. What effect does barrel length have on a gun? Does a short barrel give lower accuracy? Does it give lower muzzle velocity? Does AH model accuracy, i.e. dispersion, for tank guns? I know it does for the shore batteries (which have quite bad dispersion) but it seems there is no dispersion for tank guns?
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in real life a short barrel would have an effect on long range accuracy. obviously 300 yards wouldn't be that bad but 2000 would. for high explosive against infantry, not such a big deal but ap against other tanks, could be a big deal.
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Shorter barreled guns have a lower muzzle velocity and therefore less armour penetration. The low muzzle velocity also makes it hard to achieve hits on tanks at range since you have to aim higher and the target's movement and wind etc. has more effect on accuracy. OTOH low muzzle velocity guns' looping trajectory helps with placing high explosive rounds at a precise distance. Also low MV guns' HE rounds can be designed with weaker thinner casings and can therefore carry more explosive filling.
The short L24 gun on the early Panzer IVs had less than half the muzzle velocity of the later L43 gun and was only able to take on lightly armoured targets. OTOH I recall reading the early Panzer IVs could carry more rounds on board since each round was smaller in length.
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Keep in mind there are 2 types of projectiles in Aces High: high explosive (HE), and armor penetration (AP). The HE round, which is also fired by the 8in guns from the naval cruiser and the shore battery explode and deliver shrapnel to an area. The AP round is rigid and is meant to hold together once it impacts its target. Against tanks, the AP is used to punch through (hopefully) the armor. Against object (buildings, ordnance bunkers, fuel tanks, barracks, radar masts), and against "soft" ground vehicles (M3's, jeeps, M8's, etc), the HE round does better because the projectile explodes.
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the L24 gun is the same gun used by the German Sturmgeschütz III Ausf. B (Sd. Kfz. 142) (http://ww2db.com/images/battle_stalingrad71.jpg)
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Anyone know what the difference in armor is?
I also wonder how the side armor is affected by being spaced in AH...or if its modeled at all. By modeled I mean does a round hitting it effectively "hit" 2 pieces of armor which=adds the two together, or if theres some type of modifier to represent a now distorted round hitting the other part? Kinda having trouble describing this, but its late, and I think you all get what I mean.
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For protection against armour piercing rounds a tank is better to have say 40mm of armour all in one piece rather than 30mm plus another 10mm of spaced armour. However the spaced armour on the Panzer IV was not designed so much for that as to protect against infantry anti-tank weapons like the Bazooka. These used a shaped charge warhead that fired a molten jet of metal through the armour igniting whatever was on the other side. The spaced armour set the charge off and the gap dissipated the molten jet so it had lost much of its power by the time it hit the main armour. To save weight and cost later Panzer IVs used wire mesh instead of sheet metal for their spaced protection.
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so a question I have would be, for what use are the inferior guns in the game?
other than maybe scenarios?
wouldn't ya wanna drive out of the VH with the best version of whatever tank you picked?
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so a question I have would be, for what use are the inferior guns in the game?
other than maybe scenarios?
wouldn't ya wanna drive out of the VH with the best version of whatever tank you picked?
Of course not, Sometimes a challenge is more fun
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so a question I have would be, for what use are the inferior guns in the game?
other than maybe scenarios?
wouldn't ya wanna drive out of the VH with the best version of whatever tank you picked?
You get more perk points for killing something with a Panzer IV F than with a Tiger II.
As to the L24 gun, yes, scenarios.
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/L24 version should also be available in the EWA . . .
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/L24 version should also be available in the EWA . . .
I believe both should be available in the EWA.
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the HE round does better because the projectile explodes.
If the round explodes. That's always been a peeve of mine, that shells hitting armor always do a penetration check, and ricochet if it fails. I've bounced 8" rounds off Tigers and there was a thread around here about 1000lb bombs ricocheting off of an Ostwind.
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IRL many german AP rounds had an explosive charge meant for exploding inside the tank it just penetrated.
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IRL many german AP rounds had an explosive charge meant for exploding inside the tank it just penetrated.
Not until the LW am I aware of German AP rounds, namely the King Tiger's 88mm "PzGr.39-43 APC-HE", being designed to explode after 30-40mm armor penetration. I'm not sure of the exact details of when it was introduced to the battlefield or what the exact performance was.
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For protection against armour piercing rounds a tank is better to have say 40mm of armour all in one piece rather than 30mm plus another 10mm of spaced armour. However the spaced armour on the Panzer IV was not designed so much for that as to protect against infantry anti-tank weapons like the Bazooka. These used a shaped charge warhead that fired a molten jet of metal through the armour igniting whatever was on the other side. The spaced armour set the charge off and the gap dissipated the molten jet so it had lost much of its power by the time it hit the main armour. To save weight and cost later Panzer IVs used wire mesh instead of sheet metal for their spaced protection.
Yay finally someone whos on the same page regarding Schurzen. Yes it was more designed at first to stop Anti-Tank Rifle rounds early on, but soon was found to help defeat shaped charge weapons aswell. The Schurzen we currently have is more geared to defeating the rifle rounds rather then Bazookas, Wire Schurzen proved better due to less material required to manufacture, and it still prematurely detonated the warhead, while the solid Schurzen we see was more orientated to Russian ATRs since they at first (and later stages aswell) had a very ample supply of those around. 41-44 the majority of tanks were being sent to the Eastern Front, while the Allies in the Mediterranean were only taking a small % of Shurzen armed tanks and making their own conclusions as to what it was for, since they found well before the Russians that ATR's were quite a last resort to stopping a tank, though some instances a brave (or forced bravery in some cases) russian soldier could make a pin-ball game inside a german tank with a 14.5mm projectile.
On that note I was wondering, if we get the StuG's in game if you could model the StuG 4 or 3 with wire Schurzen instead of the panels? just something I don't see much of in games and might cut a few minutes in design perhaps.
Not until the LW am I aware of German AP rounds, namely the King Tiger's 88mm "PzGr.39-43 APC-HE", being designed to explode after 30-40mm armor penetration. I'm not sure of the exact details of when it was introduced to the battlefield or what the exact performance was.
I believe the name suggests it's introduction into the german military in various calibers. 1941-42 IIRC is when Panzergranate 39 APCBC-HE ammo was being used for the Tigers I's L/56, Believe the -43 is for the L/71 when that ammo was made for the Tiger II's gun.
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Now the question I have for our 75mm L/24's is, are the AP rounds the hollow charge ones (GR38 H1/A-C) 70"A"-100"C"mm of penetration at 100Meters. I can't find dates when hollow charges were available, but they were only effective at short range. If we have these, the short 75 can do significant damage if very close.
:salute
BigRat
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I can't find dates when hollow charges were available, but they were only effective at short range. If we have these, the short 75 can do significant damage if very close.
Hollow charges' effects should be the same regardless of range. The penetration is achieved by reason of the shaped charge in the shell; velocity plays no part.
Germans reputedly used shaped charges at Eben Emael in May, 1940, but I think those were demo charges. US bazooka was the first hollow charge I can think of....1942....? Then the Panzerschreck and Panzerfaust. Don't know when they started making them for tanks, though.
- oldman
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HEAT was used in the early Panzer IV's and StuG's in France yes, but I believe we have the solid shot AP in game. '42 for the Bazooka and I think the same date for the Panzerfaust's, 1943 seems the date that comes to mind for the introduction of the Panzerschrek. It would be nice to have the many different forms of ammo available for the GVs, but not sure how far off that is.
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Hollow charges' effects should be the same regardless of range. - oldman
I agree Oldman, 100meters was the only penetration value they gave in the book "encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Chamberlain and Doyle". It's possible that it was just a very heavy round and with poor balistics, so maybe 200 meters was beyond what they thought they could hit reliably with it :headscratch:. Albeit if they gave us that round in mid and late war it would make a great perk farmer if you could get close with it. I do believe that it was available fairly early though, I think I can remember Micheal Wittman using that round when he was assigned an early Stug, from reading is Biography.
:salute
BigRat
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I agree Oldman, 100meters was the only penetration value they gave in the book "encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Chamberlain and Doyle". It's possible that it was just a very heavy round and with poor balistics, so maybe 200 meters was beyond what they thought they could hit reliably with it :headscratch:.
If you look in the table it gives an "="-sign in the other columns, meaning same penetration at those ranges as 100m.
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UPDATE! (yay)
I finally got around to playing with the stubby gun in the MA.
So, with compared to the M5/75HE:
Splash dmg is much reduced with the panzer. In the MA with the M4 one could hit a building and it would do enough dmg to the one across the street so that the next round, carefully aimed at that opposing building would destroy both. This is not the case with the panzer.
Notable, buildings when receiving two direct hits with the panzer seem somewhat reluctant to explode (they do, and this may be a function of lag, but I have only experienced it with this tank) They have somewhat of a delay as if it takes ALL of the dmg to register to destroy it.
The reload time is also significantly longer than the M4/75
End result, the gun seems great for EW, and seems great for scenarios, but is of little use in the MA.
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If you look in the table it gives an "="-sign in the other columns, meaning same penetration at those ranges as 100m.
You're right, didn't put the "=" sign as registering in my brain as the same :bhead
Thanks LLv34 :aok
So when do we get our Hollow charge rounds :D
:salute
BigRat