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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Badboy on October 16, 2011, 05:12:56 AM

Title: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Badboy on October 16, 2011, 05:12:56 AM
And is asked if he wants a drink.

He replies: No thanks, JUST had one.


Badboy
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: EskimoJoe on October 16, 2011, 06:00:05 AM
 :D

I believe this was the thread from a couple weeks ago though  :aok

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,320887.0.html
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Badboy on October 16, 2011, 07:00:56 AM
I believe this was the thread from a couple weeks ago though  :aok

Then it must have been going way faster than light :)

Badboy
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: uptown on October 16, 2011, 08:19:05 AM
ya better keep ur day job. comedy ain't for you.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: saggs on October 16, 2011, 01:40:51 PM
I kinda think all this faster then light neutrino hoopla might be a false alarm.  So far nobody else has verified the results from CERN. 

I'm confused by something else with this story too.
 
I remember a story a few years ago where scientists had slowed the speed of light to 38 mph by shooting a laser through some super-cooled-near-absolute-zero medium.  So if I am driving past the lab where this experiment is running at 45 mph, with light in the lab experiment going 38 mph...   does that mean I am traveling faster then the speed of light???    Back to neutrinos.... if C = the speed of light in a vacuum (says Einstein) perhaps the neutrino was traveling at C (the fastest possible speed of light) unaffected by some medium that was slowing the light, so does that = faster then light or not.   When CERN says it went faster then light, do they mean faster then C, or faster then the light in the collider?  (wait, is there light in the collider?)

I just don't get it  :headscratch:

Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Brooke on October 16, 2011, 01:50:04 PM
I remember a story a few years ago where scientists had slowed the speed of light to 38 mph by shooting a laser through some super-cooled-near-absolute-zero medium.  So if I am driving past the lab where this experiment is running at 45 mph, with light in the lab experiment going 38 mph...   does that mean I am traveling faster then the speed of light??? 

Nope.  Light travelling through a medium travels more slowly than through vacuum (or really, the front of the light wave is travelling slower than a photon in vacuum).  They are just slowing down the light through a particular medium to something really slow.  You travelling faster than does light in some non-vacuum medium has no consequences of violation of causality.
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Melvin on October 16, 2011, 01:51:30 PM
CERN made a boo-boo. Relativity is safe after all.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27260/

Too bad, I was pretty excited by it. (Yep, I said excited.)
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: titanic3 on October 16, 2011, 02:01:06 PM
Dip a ruler into a glass of water.

Technically, the light inside the glass is "slower" than the light around the glass, therefore, you see the straight ruler being "bent".

Light speed in a vaccum is 186,282 miles per second, approximately, but for the sake of simplicity, let's say it's exactly that.

Now in the case of the glass of water, you are not traveling faster than the speed of light, the speed of light is just being slowed down in THAT PARTICULAR space (the glass of water).

Quote
So if I am driving past the lab where this experiment is running at 45 mph, with light in the lab experiment going 38 mph...   does that mean I am traveling faster then the speed of light???

No, because if you were, then that means that you would arrive at a destination where it is pitch black because light has not yet reached that destination.
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 16, 2011, 03:15:16 PM
Too bad, I was pretty excited by it.

 :lol :aok
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Jenks on October 16, 2011, 03:21:58 PM
and Albert, the bartender, says  " Hey!  Whats the rush? " or  "Slow down!  Take a load off. " or "Sorry kid! You're a little light in the britches to come in here."
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: COndor06 on October 17, 2011, 10:38:47 AM
Ok, So if I am in a car, in a vaccum driving at 186,282 miles per second and I turn on my headlights, will you see my headlights in front of the car?
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: FLS on October 17, 2011, 03:31:33 PM
Ok, So if I am in a car, in a vaccum driving at 186,282 miles per second and I turn on my headlights, will you see my headlights in front of the car?

No. You'd go by too fast and I'd be distracted by the lack of air.
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 17, 2011, 04:05:42 PM
Ok, So if I am in a car, in a vaccum driving at 186,282 miles per second and I turn on my headlights, will you see my headlights in front of the car?

The speed of light, hereafter refered to as "c", is constant. It is "c" whatever the speed of the emitter/observer. So say you travel toward me while emitting beams of light, you will see them travelling away from you at "c", whatever your speed is. Now from my point of view, I still see the wave front trevelling at "c". The difference is when we see it relative to each other. Since you travel at exactly "c", I cannot "see" it per se before the wave front reach me. And since you are travelling the exact same speed, I will not see neither the headlight beam nor you for that matter until you smash me right in the face as both you AND the beam of light will reach me(I will enter your cone of light(that is the volume of spacetime that an object could interact with, given no information can travel faster than "c")) at the exact same moment accordg to my clock(not yours). This is pretty mind boggling, but keep in mind that these a phenomenon that are very hard to grasp as they go against pretty much all logic we experience in our life. This kind of "relativistic effects" are mostly reserved to sub-atomic particles. Also note that a physical object with a mass cannot reach "c" because of the relation between energy and mass (E=mc2). To accelerate an object, you have to give it energy. As the speed of a massive object(meaning an object with mass, be it a proton or a space ship) gets higher, a higher and higher amount of energy is converted to mass. So to accelerate to "c", a massive object would require an infinite amount of energy, which is impossible to achieve. You can get as close as you want to it, but not quite reach it.

Very interesting subject if you ask me.
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Brooke on October 17, 2011, 04:12:07 PM
The most counter-intuitive realm of physics, to me, is quantum mechanics.  It is chock full of things that have made folks say "That can't possibly be true, because if that were true, this absurd thing would be the case."  Then folks finally get around to testing it, and they find that the absurd thing is actually the case.

Einstein, the man behind relativity (and, interestingly, behind some work that contributed to the early development of quantum mechanics), famously was not an admirer of quantum mechanics.
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: AKP on October 17, 2011, 04:13:08 PM
What happens if he orders a LIGHT beer?  Is he faster than the beer?  Is he out of temporal phase with it... preventing him from even picking it up?  Or... since he is faster than the beer that he just ordered, did he have it before he ordered it?   :huh
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 17, 2011, 06:23:19 PM
Einstein is one of the physicist that gave birth to quantum physics. What he was not very fond of is Heisenberg's incertitude principle. Einstein was convinced that the universe is deterministic(that is, that if given ALL the data about the universe at any point, you could deduce the past and future with certainty). He dedicated quite a bit of his life to debunking the incertitude principle, to no avail. It now appear that at the subatomic level, we cant be sure of what is going on 100%. This also gave birth to the void energy theory, which open up great possibilities for cosmology.

Again very interesting subject all around.

P.S. that was a nice pun by HTC there  ;)
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: STEELE on October 17, 2011, 07:04:50 PM


No, because if you were, then that means that you would arrive at a destination where it is pitch black because light has not yet reached that destination.

what about the light that's already there? If the sun has already been up for a few minutes before he started his run, there will be plenty of lightwaves already at his destination
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: titanic3 on October 17, 2011, 09:49:51 PM
I excluded any other source of light for the sake of simplicity, so imagine you racing against light from a laser. If you were faster, then you'd arrive at a pitch black place.

You could also travel faster than the sun's light wave, but then when you reach the "pitch black area", it would be 5(?) billion light years away. If the sun was 4 billion years old, you would be 4 billion light years away. (Im not sure how old our Sun is).
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: guncrasher on October 18, 2011, 02:12:56 AM
The speed of light, hereafter refered to as "c", is constant. It is "c" whatever the speed of the emitter/observer. So say you travel toward me while emitting beams of light, you will see them travelling away from you at "c", whatever your speed is. Now from my point of view, I still see the wave front trevelling at "c". The difference is when we see it relative to each other. Since you travel at exactly "c", I cannot "see" it per se before the wave front reach me. And since you are travelling the exact same speed, I will not see neither the headlight beam nor you for that matter until you smash me right in the face as both you AND the beam of light will reach me(I will enter your cone of light(that is the volume of spacetime that an object could interact with, given no information can travel faster than "c")) at the exact same moment accordg to my clock(not yours). This is pretty mind boggling, but keep in mind that these a phenomenon that are very hard to grasp as they go against pretty much all logic we experience in our life. This kind of "relativistic effects" are mostly reserved to sub-atomic particles. Also note that a physical object with a mass cannot reach "c" because of the relation between energy and mass (E=mc2). To accelerate an object, you have to give it energy. As the speed of a massive object(meaning an object with mass, be it a proton or a space ship) gets higher, a higher and higher amount of energy is converted to mass. So to accelerate to "c", a massive object would require an infinite amount of energy, which is impossible to achieve. You can get as close as you want to it, but not quite reach it.

Very interesting subject if you ask me.

dude why can you just type yes or no  :rofl.


semp
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: OOZ662 on October 18, 2011, 02:14:48 AM
Ok, So if I am in a car, in a vaccum driving at 186,282 miles per second and I turn on my headlights, will you see my headlights in front of the car?

In case you don't feel like reading a wall of text.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_DenvIA9gQ#t=1m23s
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 18, 2011, 09:21:12 AM
I kinda think all this faster then light neutrino hoopla might be a false alarm.  So far nobody else has verified the results from CERN. 

I'm confused by something else with this story too.
 
I remember a story a few years ago where scientists had slowed the speed of light to 38 mph by shooting a laser through some super-cooled-near-absolute-zero medium.  So if I am driving past the lab where this experiment is running at 45 mph, with light in the lab experiment going 38 mph...   does that mean I am traveling faster then the speed of light???    Back to neutrinos.... if C = the speed of light in a vacuum (says Einstein) perhaps the neutrino was traveling at C (the fastest possible speed of light) unaffected by some medium that was slowing the light, so does that = faster then light or not.   When CERN says it went faster then light, do they mean faster then C, or faster then the light in the collider?  (wait, is there light in the collider?)

I just don't get it  :headscratch:



Not directed at you personally.

You guys remember when every one "knew" the earth was flat?

Member when every one "knew" the sun was revolving around it?

E=MC^2 will also be remembered as the above examples some time in the future. 

Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 18, 2011, 11:02:25 AM
dude why can you just type yes or no  :rofl.


semp

Simply because things are not that simple  ;)

And beside, I love screwing with yer thoughts  :devil
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 18, 2011, 12:05:03 PM
Not directed at you personally.

You guys remember when every one "knew" the earth was flat?

Member when every one "knew" the sun was revolving around it?

E=MC^2 will also be remembered as the above examples some time in the future. 



The affirmations about earth being flat or the sun revolving around the earth were based on flawed observational data and assumption without searching for confirmation nor refutation.

The E=mc2 relation on the other hand is one that was based on empirical data and that was proved to work. One such example was the developement of nuclear technologies (civilian and military). Some effect predicted by special relativity are taken into account within some technologies we use everyday. GPS is an example of that.

Bear in mind, I`m not saying that Einstein equations are the end of all things, but they will be remembered as a good approximations of more precise theories to come. Much like Newton's law of gravitation. Because it has been supplanted by general relativity as the gravitation theory does not mean it's all rubbish. On the contrary of the example you've given, Newton's law still work in some situations. Someone saying today that earth is the center of the universe goes against observational data and IS a bunch of rubbish.

 :salute
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 18, 2011, 02:02:11 PM
The affirmations about earth being flat or the sun revolving around the earth were based on flawed observational data and assumption without searching for confirmation nor refutation.

The E=mc2 relation on the other hand is one that was based on empirical data and that was proved to work. One such example was the developement of nuclear technologies (civilian and military). Some effect predicted by special relativity are taken into account within some technologies we use everyday. GPS is an example of that.

Bear in mind, I`m not saying that Einstein equations are the end of all things, but they will be remembered as a good approximations of more precise theories to come. Much like Newton's law of gravitation. Because it has been supplanted by general relativity as the gravitation theory does not mean it's all rubbish. On the contrary of the example you've given, Newton's law still work in some situations. Someone saying today that earth is the center of the universe goes against observational data and IS a bunch of rubbish.

 :salute

So, we have observed that nothing can travel faster than light?  Same as observing the earth is flat no?  It all depends on what you have seen so far. 
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 18, 2011, 02:30:11 PM
The affirmations about earth being flat or the sun revolving around the earth were based on flawed observational data and assumption without searching for confirmation nor refutation.

etc ...

theres no difference at all between flat earth/newton/einstein/quantum, all observation is flawed. we still use flat earth in the same way as we still use the other theories, it just depends what you need the theory/tool to do.

eg. if you lay out a baseball pitch, you assume the earth is flat because non-euclidian geometry is a PITA and produces a level of accuracy which is not necessary for this application. the guy painting the lines doesnt think that the world is actually flat, but the theory is still good enough for what he needs to do.
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: guncrasher on October 18, 2011, 02:35:59 PM
Simply because things are not that simple  ;)

And beside, I love screwing with yer thoughts  :devil

actually I didnt read the paragraph as I just assumed it was full of bs. which it probably is.  I know people that will just go on and on for 15 or 20 minutes just to say yes/no.

but it was a joke no explanation need it :).

you really want to mess with people ask them what weights more:  a lb of cotton or a lb of gold.  a lb of cotton weights more.


semp

semp

Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 18, 2011, 02:50:59 PM
you really want to mess with people ask them what weights more:  a lb of cotton or a lb of gold.

I'll bite. they both weigh the same, 1lb.


edit: YMMV depending on where you live for this answer ;)
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 18, 2011, 02:59:31 PM
I'll bite. they both weigh the same, 1lb.

Yeah, but which one is heavier?
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 18, 2011, 03:02:09 PM
depends on the environments their weights were originally measured in ...
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 18, 2011, 03:19:09 PM

you really want to mess with people ask them what weights more:  a lb of cotton or a lb of gold.  a lb of cotton weights more.

semp


Ok. Now expand on your answer a bit. Don't worry if you take more than 10 words to explain, I'll take the time to read it nonetheless   :D
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 18, 2011, 03:26:43 PM
depends on the environments their weights were originally measured in ...

 :O
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: guncrasher on October 18, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
gold gets measured in troy ounces,  less ounces per lb than cotton.

semp
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 18, 2011, 04:35:14 PM
:O

ok ... I'm a brit so a pound is a measurement of weight, not mass. if the lb of cotton was originally weighed on the moon and the lb of gold was weighed on the earth, the cotton would have much greater mass than the gold. heavy has more to do with mass than weight, so the lb of cotton would be heavier than the lb of gold given the above conditions. probably :D
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 18, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
ok ... I'm a brit so a pound is a measurement of weight, not mass. if the lb of cotton was originally weighed on the moon and the lb of gold was weighed on the earth, the cotton would have much greater mass than the gold. heavy has more to do with mass than weight, so the lb of cotton would be heavier than the lb of gold given the above conditions. probably :D

Hmmm, nop, you cant compare the two unless you measure under the same conditions.  Otherwise, you are just comparing conditions.  In either case, I was just messing around when I asked since I could claim wrong no matter what you answered. 

If you said they are the same, I could use atomic weights.  If you said that one was heavier than the other I could use the fact that they are both 1lb  :neener:
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 18, 2011, 04:55:11 PM
well ... we define a lb as whatever weighs the same as a chunk of platinum (stored somewhere in london I imagine.) something that weighs the same as that rather valuable standard on the moon will have considerable greater mass than something that weighs the same on earth ... :P
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 18, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
gold gets measured in troy ounces,  less ounces per lb than cotton.

semp

Really didn't thought of this

I guess that goes in the basket of things I didn't know that I do now  :aok

Semp, that DID mess with my head a little. :lol
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: guncrasher on October 18, 2011, 06:48:14 PM
so is it possible for an once of gold to weight more than an ounce of cotton but a pound of cotton to weight more than a pound of gold.

semp
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: PuppetZ on October 18, 2011, 07:13:38 PM
so is it possible for an once of gold to weight more than an ounce of cotton but a pound of cotton to weight more than a pound of gold.

semp

Stop doing this dammit  :furious

 :lol
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: titanic3 on October 18, 2011, 09:20:20 PM
Who cares how much it weighs? Just sell it it to the highest bidder.  :D
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 19, 2011, 09:09:01 AM
well ... we define a lb as whatever weighs the same as a chunk of platinum (stored somewhere in london I imagine.) something that weighs the same as that rather valuable standard on the moon will have considerable greater mass than something that weighs the same on earth ... :P

Hmm, at what speed?
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: guncrasher on October 19, 2011, 01:13:29 PM
Hmm, at what speed?

speed of bs x fan square?


semp
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 19, 2011, 01:19:38 PM
Hmm, at what speed?

since they are all measured on the surface, lets say non-relativistic speeds ...
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: hitech on October 19, 2011, 01:51:54 PM
ok ... I'm a brit so a pound is a measurement of weight, not mass. if the lb of cotton was originally weighed on the moon and the lb of gold was weighed on the earth, the cotton would have much greater mass than the gold. heavy has more to do with mass than weight, so the lb of cotton would be heavier than the lb of gold given the above conditions. probably :D

I always knew you were a slug at heart.

HiTech
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: dedalos on October 19, 2011, 02:09:03 PM
since they are all measured on the surface, lets say non-relativistic speeds ...

Surface of what?  One is on earth the other on the moon and we know they both spin and move at different speeds.  Not to mention we don;t know what direction the objects are moving.  Muahahahahahha
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: Shuffler on October 19, 2011, 02:10:37 PM
What it were gold cotton?
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: RTHolmes on October 19, 2011, 02:23:52 PM
I always knew you were a slug at heart.

HiTech

I used to be, but now we do things the european way.

which makes me a mug ;)
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: tuesdayred on November 05, 2011, 11:22:52 AM
and the bartender says, hey nice blue suit!, neutrino says, yeah, and that"s a nice red suit you got!
Title: Re: A faster than light neutrino walks into a bar...
Post by: wil3ur on November 05, 2011, 11:26:17 AM
and the bartender says, hey nice blue suit!, neutrino says, yeah, and that"s a nice red suit you got!

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaame  :)